Patch 5.2 interview with Dave Kosak
Inside an old alt's vault
The latest patch 5.2 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsTank opportunities in the late endgame
by Mike Schramm 
Dec 7th 2009 at 3:00PM
In essence, they're saying there's a glass ceiling for tanks. Once you reach a certain point, it's hard to find even the opportunity to be a solid tank.
Unfortunately, I don't really see an easy solution here -- if you aren't in a position where you can tank, the best thing to do is to get in one. Either make buddies with a main tank who wants to switch out every once in a while, or start up your own guild and do the raidleading yourself. I haven't been a serious raid healer for a while, either, but I'd assume it's basically the same on that side -- at the highest levels, things probably get pretty cutthroat. And as long as there are limited spots for many more interested people, no amount of game balance will be able to change that. All you can do is perform as best you can and hope that when the opportunity comes along, you're there to take it.
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Death Knight, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Beli Dec 7th 2009 3:35PM
Frankly, you have a glass ceiling for everyone - it's just that the level is a little lower for tanks. My tank never gets to raid with my guild - our tanking spots are already taken up with some great tanks. Likewise, my healer never gets to raid with the guild (She had a great 1.5-month long run in Ulduar when we were short on healers, but not any more). Instead, it's my mage running with the guild all the time, because she puts out the best DPS in the guild. It doesn't matter than the gear i have on her makes her better qualified for harder raids - it's what the guild needs. I still get to heal and tank plenty of pugs, at the appropriate levels for both characters... but trust me, it's a LOT harder to pug real end game stuff than the earlier stuff - most of the pugs i get into with my mage are total wipefests.
Vinna Dec 7th 2009 3:36PM
Yeah, my guild is full on raiding tanks and never have a problem filling the tanking spots in a raid. Yet on off nights when we want to do 10 mans or heroics there doesn't ever seem to be enough tanks around!
Same with healers. There is certainly no shortage of healers, at least in the guild I am, we often have to have our raiding healers switch to dps.
I have to say for me as a raiding priest, it gives me a nice change of pace to facemelt/dps instead of always healing.
edgarrinwow Dec 8th 2009 3:02PM
It's all about the gear. You can be a great player, great atitude; but if your gear sucks NO ONE will play with you. at one point you have to off-spec and when you join parties they have to be comfortable with you rolling on non-spec gear for your tank. best way to do this is to get a tank in your guild to tank the run and then you can roll on tank gear that drops.
Until your gear is high enough you won't be used, and you won't be able to get gear and so on.
bean Dec 7th 2009 3:41PM
Actually I've had problems getting into 5mans heroics as a tank. Our server seems just as tank-starved & healer-starved as every other one, but my Frost DK is def capped, 24k HP, and he gets booted from parties before they start because HP is too low.
I'm running out of eq I can get off the AH, and most of the stuff in heroics isn't an upgrade anyway, so he's languishing until I can hopefully start finding stuff with the cross-instance LFG.
Hoggersbud Dec 7th 2009 3:55PM
24K HP does seem a bit low, especially for a DK. I don't know what you need to do upgrade-wise without looking at your armory, but yeah, I'd be reluctant to let you tank.
gari.rogers Dec 7th 2009 4:22PM
Farm ToC Normal Mode. My Blood Tank is sitting at 29k unbuffed Health after sucking that well dry. Works fine for most Heroics.
catharsis80 Dec 7th 2009 4:40PM
@gari.rogers
No offense, but I find it hard to believe that you're at 29k unbuffed from just normal ToC gear. My Tauren (health bonus?) DK in Frost Presence, with all the tank gear from normal ToC has 26-27k health. There's no way that's all you have, unless you have every single stam enchant out there as well as stamina gems out the wazzoo.
catharsis80 Dec 7th 2009 4:44PM
But yes, all new tanks should definitely farm reg ToC. I'm just saying don't expect to hit 29k from it.
My tank, as of 12/07/2009. Notice the health: http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Arthas&name=kathar
Mork Dec 7th 2009 4:48PM
You hit on a point that frustrates me to no end with the general PuG. I don't know if it's true of your gear or not as I can't see it, but HP's are not everything. There is still plenty of room for avoidance tanks but the general non tank players out there have this idea that a tanks worth is directly related to their HP's. It's just something you have to learn to deal with, and at 24k health you are obviously 'new' so people may not want to risk it. Though it pains me to say this, if you are going to pug, gem STA, or be ready to explain the intricacies of avoidance tanking to every group you join.
If I recall correctly entry level Heroics tanking was def soft 'cap' (535) and 24k health, so you should be perfectly fine. That said, you are not ready for raids at that health, even avoidance geared. There are plenty of 'beginning tank gear item' sites out there to help out though, just google it.
catharsis80 Dec 7th 2009 4:57PM
Being a fairly new heroic 5-man tank, I can agree with Mork. I would do two things for starting out. Get as much def rating as possible (540 cap) and get as much Stam as possible.
Mork, I think the reason Stamina is looked at so highly is because there is no RNG involved; if you have 28k health, you have 28k health. Period. It's a much more reliable number. Of course, if someone isn't def capped, or at least close, that won't matter too much.
bean Dec 7th 2009 4:57PM
Duplicating my reply in the right spot...
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderhorn&n=beanolith
Couple of notes:
* he's far from def cap because i logged off with pvp legs, belt, & ring that I don't use for tanking
* I just messed up the gemming on the legs so the head's meta no longer applies, it'll be fixed
* I'm desperate to replace the Crusader's Locket with Seal of the Pantheon from HoL, but haven't been able to get a group for it, I'm always the only one in LFG (can't WAIT For 3.3!), and I'm too cheap to replace it with darkmoon greatness.
I've been going off http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/40966-polars-easy-pre-naxx-tank-gear-list.html but I've picked up almost everything on the list...
Shadan Dec 7th 2009 3:49PM
Someone hinted at the fact that a raid is not comfortable with a pug tank. From a healer's perspective, I would much rather heal a tank I am familiar with because you know how incoming damage will affect them and what CDs they will use.
Also, tank spots in raids might be hard to get, but for heroics tanks and healers are gods. When I join LFG on my dps toon I have to wait for 20-30 mins to find a spot. With my healer or tank I get a spot in 2 mins tops.
Aymuhdroowud Dec 7th 2009 3:51PM
Raid Tanking is 1-3 slots in either 10 or 25 man. Raid healing is 2-3 in 10 man and 5-7 in 25 depending on your set up. So yeah, while tanking IS a hard spot to get into with a serious guild healing is much more flexible. I really only ever have to sideline one healer while I have to have 2-3 tanks go offspec/alt at any time as a guild/raid leader.
Dharmabhum Dec 7th 2009 3:52PM
All valid points, but that's not to say that (assuming you're a competent player and have done some work to gear up to the level of content you're doing) opportunities are non-existent. My pally tank is in our guild but we don't regularly run raids or anything. I pretty much PUG 10 ToC every week (same on my disc priest) or get lucky and catch some guildies online. Either way, its mostly PUG and 10 ToC isn't too difficult to do that way with decent gear. 25's are a different story though, at least a little bit, and your point is slightly more valid in this case, but that doesn't mean you can't PUG a 25 ToC... don't you listen to trade chat?!
jrizutko Dec 7th 2009 4:10PM
The phrase "glass ceiling" is completely misused and abused in this post and thread.
A glass ceiling is a point above which one may not be promoted because of some attribute they possess. The topic at hand is that raids aren't giving out MT jobs immediately because the positions are already filled. Its not like Schramm can't become an MT if he puts dedicated effort into it. He just wants to be an MT because he's showed up and has gearscore x, instead of earning a raid groups trust over time.
grateful nerd Dec 7th 2009 4:49PM
Thank you! That's been bugging me a little bit. =)
If you are repeatedly passed over for promotion at your company because you are a woman, that is a glass ceiling.
If you are repeatedly passed over for a promotion because there are only a few openings with many many people interested that is COMPETITION, not a "glass ceiling".
uncaringbear Dec 7th 2009 4:59PM
Totally agree - the author should've used a modicum of thought before using this inappropriate metaphor.
Asswipe Johnson Dec 7th 2009 5:42PM
"Glass tanking ceiling" is the new "defense cap." For all the mouth-breathing commenters, I can turn a blind eye to the boneheaded misuse of these terms, but someone who gets to write for a living should know what the fuck they're writing, and if they don't, their editor should be able to catch it.
Anti Dec 7th 2009 4:04PM
another option is to start out as a DPS or a healer and grab any Tanking gear as an offspec. This allows you to learn the instances and within a few weeks to a few months you Will have enough gear to become the offtank, then soon to be Main tank.
and again another option is to wait for the main groups within your guild to get geared and eventually they will be able to carry you, The MT being so geared that he can carry a slightly undergeared OT and add in the fact that the healers will also be geared and will be more than able to Heal an undergeared Tank
Mork Dec 7th 2009 4:10PM
Another point that I would add is the need for most guilds to have an abundance of tanks for the non 25-man instance runs. For example, my guild regularly has an A and B team running ToGC 10, and pulling initiates through normal 10 man TOC, so we in effect need 4 reliable tanks. That's fine for most things, and even have a few others with offspec tanking gear.
We've recently added new members and have contemplated adding a C team in as well, but there in lies another problem. Do we have our current offspec tanks use their saves to help out new people, or recruit even more tanks.
Of course when it comes to our 25-mans all the sudden we have far too many tanks. Obvious answer, have someone go offspec. Problem there you still have 4 tanks rolling on gear despite one being a DPS or Healer, but also it's more difficult for them to gear up those offspecs as who really wants to tell a mainspec healer or DPS that their 10 man tank is taking their gear for offspec. Causes a bit of drama that no one wants.
I will say this much though, after leveling and having tanked with all classes that can do so over the years. A new tank mid way through any expansion is going to have a hard time finding a spot in a raiding environment. You're either in the first batch of high end tanks, or you get lucky and someone quits or leaves and a slot opens up. There are probably VERY few guilds looking for new tanks. I hate to turn people away from tanking, as I find it to be the most enjoyable aspect of the game, but my advice to anyone wanting to tank this far into an expansion. Get your tank gear offspec, focus on another spec, and if you keep that tank gear shiney and new you might get lucky and find a spot open up. People quit, people transfer, people take breaks, that's basics so a spot will eventually open up but trying to force your way into it is simply not going to happen.