Guildwatch "makes a potion out the QQ"

The story here is all about sweet, sweet ego: Aliana had a sense of entitlement while raiding -- she was angry that items she would really like to have were going to someone who could only do 4k as opposed to her 9k, thanks to a lousy so-called fair DKP system. We'd like to think Grator is a true Guildwatch fan: we just sit back, listen in, and make a delicious potion "out the QQ."
Lots more QQ potion in this week's Guildwatch, along with the last downings before Icecrown and recruiting notices from around the realms. If you have something to send us (and please do -- the coffers are running a little low, probably because guild business has slowed down pre-patch), throw us an email at guildwatch@wow.com. Hit the link below to read on.
Lots more QQ potion in this week's Guildwatch, along with the last downings before Icecrown and recruiting notices from around the realms. If you have something to send us (and please do -- the coffers are running a little low, probably because guild business has slowed down pre-patch), throw us an email at guildwatch@wow.com. Hit the link below to read on.
DRAMA
- Lots of guilds reached their fifth birthday along with the game recently: Rotten Luck on The Scryers-H hit their 5th birthday the other week, and went to go get warbears to celebrate. Vicious Disciples on Tichondrius also hit five years with the WoW anniversary the other week, including some original members of the game as well. So did Monolith of Llane, who celebrated with a night of events and fun, capping off with a scavenger journey through the guild's time in WoW. And Stormwardens on Dragonmaw also hit their 5th. Congrats to all!
- Sneakybears on EU Dragonblight have allegedly been taking items from raids that don't belong to them -- a rogue named Smarties in the raid apparently took a drop, and then even when they rerolled and he lost (again), he wouldn't give the item up, and other members of the guild began harassing the roll winner. The guild doesn't seem to care much about their reputation, but when someone from the guild applies elsewhere, that crazy "get on my horse" video (which is NSFW and makes no sense, but is strangely amusing) is all that gets posted. Unfortunately, it seems the guild he applied to (Consensio) has problems of their own after a server transfer.
- A few tipsters sent this to us, and for the sake of completeness, I'll include it here, even though it's kind of the opposite of drama. The good folks in Dominate on Fenris wrote up a short history of their guild and how they've run it, including the ups and downs and lessons they've learned so far. If you're reading this column, then I'll assume that you like hearing about guild activity from the inside, and while that post is a little more reasoned and less sensational than we usually get on GW, it's a good read anyway.
- Glory or Death on Alterac Mountains posts that they've nabbed an Onyxia achievement, and then vodka shows up in the thread to trash their pride and make fun of them. Or wait, maybe what the vodka guy says is true and GoD didn't really care about the achievement and were just posting it ironically. Or wait, maybe the real trolls are the guys calling vodka out, and vodka is getting trolled into that they're ruining their reputation when everyone is really in on the joke. Oh man, my head hurts -- can't we just grats the original guild and move on?
- All right, follow us on this one. Brans is apparently the former GM of Team Galactic, a guild we mentioned a little while back as angry that they didn't get listed in the right place on a progression thread. Apparently even he was done with 10-man strict raiding, as he applied to another guild, and in his reason for leaving TG, says he doesn't consider 10-man raiding alone enough any more. He does say he finds our articles entertaining, so geez -- someone let the guy in their guild already, we forgive him! Meanwhile, back in the Nagrand progression thread, Team Galactic has been removed completely at someone's request. Moral of the story? Fighting to gain progression is a little more important than fighting over progression threads.
- Pre Nerf on Nazgrel is a guild that has almost all of the endgame achievements, except for 25-man Heroic ToC. Enjoi (it's a brand) is the guild that server transferred to merge with them and try to grab the realm-first achievement. And now things aren't going so well between the two -- Enjoi is back recruiting, and Pre Nerf wants everyone to know that Enjoi's GM is a loser.
- Let's just say: don't do any raiding with Voltorne on Proudmoore, and leave it at that. Man, you folks on Proudmoore are vicious. Sure, he's egging everyone on, but I would not want to be a ninja on that server.
- The folks in Blood Drunk on Lothar don't seem to understand how this whole looting thing works: they posted on the forums that someone they took on their raid won a roll on a dagger, and then refused to give it up even though it was only a minor upgrade for him. But... he won the roll. That means he gets the dagger. You're not a ninja if you deserve to have whatever piece drops. You can't change the rules after the roll to get loot away from a non-guildie.
- Finally, here's a (NSFW, though just for some mild language) thread from a forum talking about drama on Guildwatch, linked from Guildwatch itself. How meta! And Philosopher is right: it's mostly ego. Drama is what happens when people take things that aren't serious too seriously. If you start thinking that you really deserve those loots, or that you have put so much time into this guild that you really deserve to get people to do what you want, then drama is usually incoming.
- Epsilon of Thaurissian has been rocking the 10-man hard mode achievements lately. Alone in the Darkness, Herald of the Titans, and a Tribute to Dedicated Insanity have all been conquered. Apparently they're fighting with a few other guilds on the server who claim that the 10-man stuff isn't as hard as the 25-man content, but with those achivements, that's not necessarily true. Good job all around, at any rate.
- Dimensional Death (Elune-A) beat down Yogg Saron after three hours worth of attempts (eesh, that's rough). Hard modes are next, and then ToC 10 if they haven't been there yet.
- Brass Monkey of Farstriders was mentioned here a while back after forming, and after only six months, they've already got four teams farming ToC 10, and are rocking ToC 25 on a regular basis. Nice job! Good luck to you in ICC.
- Raid Groups Not in the Face! and Ambisinister Strike Force, both a part of the Alea Iacta Est guild on Earthen Ring have both downed 10-man ToGC and received A Tribute to Mad Skill. It's also ASF's first Heroic Anub kill, as well. Grats!
- F U B A R on Vek'nilash has cleared all 10-man content except for Yoggy (he's on notice). They're recruiting, too: especially healers for raids earlier in the evening (like 8:30pm server) and warlocks in general. They'll take anyone, though, as long as you're 18+, drama-free, and like things that way.
- Knights of Ancient War on Arathor-A cleared out the Arachnid Quarter of Naxx, plus Patchwerk and Noth. They're working on Flame Leviathan, too -- glad to see not everybody is done with the raid content. They're also recruiting more DPS and a third healer for the 10-man team. They raid only on Saturday nights. Everyone's welcome, but if you want to raid right away, be sure to run ToC's 5-man for all the epics you can carry.
- In Harms Way of Korialstrasz-A is a very fun guild, that's just doing 5-mans and having a good time. We don't just recognize raiding prowess here -- we'll give props for doing whatever it is in the game that makes you happy. I have to agree with IHW: "there's nothing wrong with enjoying the game." Amen.
- Fallen Aurora on Eonar picked up Tribute to Mad Skill a few weeks ago. Grats!
- Scruffy Nerf Herders on The Scryers has downed Icehowl.. twice. Apparently their hunter died just as he, last man standing, killed off Icehowl. But when they all rezzed and gathered their loot up, the doors of ToC opened again, and Gormock the Impaler came through them again. They killed them all again, and picked up three more loot drops, a rare pattern and another crusader orb. That's like paying for one bag of chips in the vending machine and getting two. Grats and all, but the last thing you want to do after an exploit like that is send it to us to post about it, right?
- Shiny of Perenolde-A is rolling on: Ulduar down, with four hard modes to go last we heard. ToC 10 being farmed, and up to Valkyr on Heroic -- they say they're the only strict 10-man guild to have cleared any bosses in there. And Onyxia, they brag, they can clear in their sleep. I'll believe it when I see it!
- Enigma of EU Nagrand recently cleared Trial of the Crusader 10-man with both guild firsts of Twin Val'kyr and Anub'arak occurring on the same night. They're always open to new recruits who want to enjoy the game's content without being stuck tied up in hardcore raiding rules.
- CONVERGE and Woe on Maelstrom-H both got Heroic Anub 25 this week, making them the server second and third guilds to take the big bug down. Grats!
- Lack of Hustle on Onyxia just started in September, but they're already farming ToC 10 and 25, and have picked up Tribute to Mad Skill. Just recently, they also picked up Beasts and Jaraxxus in the Heroic version, which means Faction Champs is on notice. They're also seeking an ele shammy, and they've got Icecrown in their sights now that 3.3 is out. Good luck!
- Hellenic Horde, a pure Greek guild sitting on EU Nagrand, has downed Beasts and Jaraxxus on ToGC 25. They're also recruiting mature Greek players to fill the ranks for Icecrown. More info on the website.
- Conviction on EU Executus has finished all 10-man content up to Icecrown, picking up a Tribute to Skill. Beast and Jaraxxus are also down in Heroic and 25-man as well.
- Eternal Legacy of Blackwater Raiders-H has downed Yogg-Saron with zero keepers in 25-man Ulduar. Several weeks of hard work for the guild was paid off with the server first Death's Demise title. This wraps up all of Ulduar's hard mode achievements, and they're now working on Anub'Arak in ToGC. Grats and good luck!
- The Fraternity of Garrosh has downed the first four bosses in ToC 10. On the very first time in the instance, no less. Grats!
- Taint of Madness on Proudmoore is recruiting -- they're seeking GLBT-friendly progression-minded raiders who don't have four-plus nights a week to raid. Look them up in-game if you have questions.
- Burn on EU Darkspear-A is a new guild that values families and lives over raiding until your life disintegrates. If you'd rather play and have fun while progressing than be stuck to strict schedules and gearscore comparing, seek them out in game or on the website.
- The Ice Drakes (EU Draenor) are recruiting mature ranged DPS (although no more mages please) for ToGC 25-man. Normal has been cleared, as has Yogg, so it's all Heroic from here on out. Have a sense of humor and an appreciation of sarcasm as well, please.
- Pulse on Drenden is a casual raiding guild seeking a few solid DPS and healers to fill out the 25-man core group. They're 4/5 in ToC, and they raid on Tuesdays and Sundays. If you want to apply, fill out an app on their website.
- Paradigm on Bloodhoof-H i recruiting for Icecrown Citadel and the last few bosses in Ulduar and ToC. They're seeking a few resto shaman, a couple of death knights, a holy pally, and a tank (with a tank/DPS switch hitter preferred). They raid four nights a week, and ask for at least 80% attendance -- qualified applicants will be geared and ready with experience, but open to suggestions as well. Check out the guild charter for more information and apply on the website.
- Khaaaan of Crushridge-H is recruiting a skilled resto shaman and resto druid. They focus on 10-man content and are 4/5 on ToGC. They join up with another guild to do some 25-man content once a week for the easy gear and badges as well. They say they recruit raiders, not bench warmers, so if you're worth it, you'll be raiding every week. Visit the website and fill out an application if interested.
- Grunts (The Venture Co.-H) is looking to expand their ranks. Currently, they to 10-man raiding and PvP with a realmwide group, and they're planning to put together a battleground team before Cataclysm and do some rated battlegrounds. They're also a light RP guild and host a storytelling night once a month. Accepting all classes and specs. More information is on the website.
- East India Company is a new guild on Deathwing with many veterans on the server. They have 10- and 25-man ToC on farm, and are seeking to fill out ranks for the Heroic versions and on to Icecrown. Good healers and DPS are needed specifically -- if you're a smart player seeking a laid back guild, they want you.
- Need or Greed is a semi-casual raiding guild on EU Blade's Edge who are mainly focused on 10-man content. They've recently cleared Trial of the Crusader as well as all of Ulduar except for Yogg Saron. Specifically, they're recruiting tanks, but any skilled players are welcome to join them to have fun and down bosses. Learn more, as usual, on the website.
- Early Dragon on Llane-A is a progressive morning raiding guild; three years old and going strong. They are currently working on ToGC 25, and seeking to round out the 25-man raid group with well geared, mature players including tanks, ranged DPS, healers, and feral druids.
Filed under: Guilds, Odds and ends, Humor, Guildwatch, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
niko Dec 9th 2009 4:05PM
Ah, Guildwatch, how I love thee. Such sweet morsels of lol. :)
Cephas Dec 9th 2009 5:00PM
I just love the wording of "morsels of lol". I will now try to work that into everyday conversations.
Janaa Dec 9th 2009 4:07PM
I've been encountering a lot of players with this attitude in the random dungeon finder. As it mixes lower geared characters with higher geared characters in order to make a smooth dungeon run for players who have dinged more recently, many high dps'ers feel like they're "carrying" lower dps.
The system makes perfect sense. It locks out players whose gear is too low to actually complete the dungeon, so nobody is actually being carried. It just means that by mixing high with low, undergeared players have a greater chance of getting gear they need, thus increasing the overall gear level on the server.
It kills me seeing a whole team of 7000+ DPSers running a heroic 5-man, even though their gear far outweighs anything in there, when they could take along a low DPSer and get them some better gear.
The truth is, if someone else is doing lower DPS than you, they need the gear more than you. My guild has always worked on a "gear people who need it" policy. Sure, it means we're not cutting-edge first-on-server raiding, but it means everyone gets geared at a decent rate and overall raid DPS increases every run.
Holgar Dec 9th 2009 4:15PM
"I'm doing better dps so I should get the gear." That mentality has always seemed absurd to me. Especially when you consider the above is a guild run. Hello the point of gearing people is so they can proform better and get more gear and proform better and you get the point.
However some people in 5 man pugs (especially endgame raiders) do seem to want everyone to ourgear things to a UTTERLY INSANE level.
Janaa Dec 9th 2009 4:25PM
Yeah, the one I always LOL'd at the most as pure idiocy is meters-based loot distribution. This was quite popular for a few weeks. Running VOA/OS pugs, etc. Also amusingly, it only seemed to apply to DPS, so healers and tanks missed out. But basically, it was "highest DPS gets any gear drops they want, plus any bag drops, plus mount drops, etc".
Usually though, it was instituted by loot masters who knew they outgeared everyone they invited, intentionally.
Squeek Dec 9th 2009 4:32PM
@Holgar:
If you don't support your best players, the players you know won't stand in fire, will handle all of their responsibilities, and will always perform, then you're going to fall apart.
I don't know about this guy and whether or not he was the most deserving of the weapon. It doesn't matter, though. Since this guild couldn't decide on a metric for handing out loot, they chose 'highest roll wins'. If they wanted to police who gets loot, they should have gone with a Loot Council system and told everybody about it in advance.
We did two co-guild runs of ToC25 every week on our server, both times with Loot Council rules. If you don't perform and you're rolling against someone who did, guess who it's going to go to? Now, the metric for 'not performing' is pretty generic. It's nothing like 'oh you got hit by icehowl therefore you don't get loot'. If you're constantly going AFK, pulling under 3000 DPS (pretty generous), standing in fire, etc., you can be pretty certain you won't be getting anything.
This isn't rocket science. If you suck at the game, gear isn't going to make you better. Gear makes good players better. Gear doesn't make bad players good.
Besides, what the hell is someone doing with a 213 weapon in ToC25? ToC5 has been out for months now. Go get your Spectral Kris. Then run ToC10 and get your Sunreaver Disciple / Silver Disciple Blade. I'm not one to strictly enforce gear requirements, but the idea of carrying someone through something is that they get the leftovers that normally would be disenchanted. The people who have been running for weeks or months waiting for their chance at their last upgrades aren't going to be happy when a 2.5k dps in some greens wins their gear. I know, because this happened to me constantly until we changed our loot system to benefit those who have been raiding every week over those who are either new to our raids or are being carried.
And you know what? None of them mind getting table scraps. They know they're being carried. We told them in advance what the loot system was, and they agreed to it. No hard feelings. Most of them walk out with gear anyway. Hell, as someone who has geared three alts in these runs, I've done the exact same thing. I'm not going to take an upgrade until I'm certain that none of the regular raiders have no need for it.
Nick S Dec 9th 2009 4:37PM
Despite a few issues, I love the random dungeon system so far. I have felt both like I was being carried and like I was carrying people, but you know what? THEY'RE JUST DUNGEONS. Not hard enough for it to matter.
Broken_toes Dec 9th 2009 4:55PM
LOL MY FRICKIN ARSE OFF!
"...2.5k dps in some greens wins their gear." Greens? really? I;m fairly sure you can't survive the aoe in 25 wearing greens let alone do 2.5dps.
If someone's constantly going afk (without a valid reason) then you remove them from group- its simple as. If they're playing badly by failing at tactics, and you've tried explaining, then you remove.
If your one o those raiders that can't conceive of the need to explain tactics, if your one o those raiders that throws a tantrum at the mere suggestion that someone can't remember or doesn't know a boss fight.... Hoooo HOOO your in for a treat these next few months.
If someone needs gear, and they've survived- but low and behold they haven't knocked out 4k dps in they're naxx 25 gear... then really where is the problem with them needing gear?
..."run ToC10 and get your Sunreaver Disciple / Silver Disciple Blade" what if they haven't dropped, or you been unlucky in getting them? That guy fails, just shouldn't be allowed to raid? What do they do then? try PuG it, chance they're luck with ninja's or the ever present 9k DpS mage trollin for a kick on the 4K, sure we downed the boss but 4k on anub... it can't be done, it cant be done.
Ye fine some guy's set his heart on some crap for the past 3 weeks.. woopdie doo... If you cant let that drop, if that actually really really bothers you... mean come on there must be something else going on in your life that you can just say "damn" and carry on. If there isn't that something, its probably advisable to make a effort to go find it- warcraft isn't the answer.
Its funny how these 'rules' never apply to the tanks or healers, they get left to it.
Janaa Dec 9th 2009 5:01PM
Hehe Nick, same. At one point I was running with my freshly dinged feral druid, sitting around 1800 DPS. One random run I get thrown into FOS with 6-8k DPSers clearing normal in order to get access to the later heroics. Being carried heavily. Next dungeon I get thrown into VH with 76'ers, and I'm cleaning them up. Running heroics on my mains it was pretty much the same deal - up and down all over the place, but thats why I like the dungeon system..
I like it *because* it mixes it up. Good and bad dps together. Overgeared healers with undergeared tanks. Undergeared healers with overgeared tanks. The mix up does great things for increasing the overall gear level across the server. The way dungeons were being run before was silly - high DPSers running dungeons just because it's the daily - passing on all loot - nobody ever gearing up. Meanwhile undergeared players who can't get into decent runs are wiping over and over. The elitist separation has been getting tiresome.
Phil Dec 9th 2009 5:04PM
I have a lot of high level toons who are geared pretty decently for the most part and to me personally i could care less if I get thrown with a lesser geared to assuming that their gear is good enough to complete the instance.
Majority of time I run across people who actually have decent gear they just don't know how to play their class/role optimally and have lower dps or something to that effect, while at the same time I've seen people who know their class or are just simply good players come in greens and blues out dps or at least keep up with people decked out in purples.
As soon as blizzard can detect a players skill and knowledge of their class the gear level really isn't all that important ya know? (and the only way I can think to possibly do this is some sort of written test with a practical applications test lol so I don't think this will ever happen)
Lantokk Dec 9th 2009 5:10PM
My raiding guild uses a loot council. The idea of it sounds horrid, but to my surprise and relief it worked really well. Those who needed gear the most tended to get it. Keeping an up-to-date wish list on the guild forums and always linking your current gear helped it run smoothly.
That was when we were unconcerned about guild ranking and more about having fun seeing all the content and progressing all the way. We rose in rank nevertheless and unfortunately the more highly ranked your guild the harder-core your recruits tend to be. ToC/ToGC created a timing imperative and the guild culture seemed to shift with it. The officers kept track of who got the trophies for one round, then they became available first to toons who already had sufficient emblems of Triumph to spend them at the time of trophy drop. The result? The handful of dpsers with lots of time to play outside of official raid time (we only officially run 25s) got gear faster. It shows in the dps. The press to get into harder content as soon as possible has changed out group mentality. We no longer stick together for a couple more weeks to make sure everybody has geared up. If there is a recruit out there better geared and able to deliver, they can join and take a spot in the raid from dpsers who have not yet received their equal share of gear.
Mind you, I still think the loot council was awesome. The twin mindsets were that all decisions were made based on what was best for the guild, and what was best for the guild was for a gear quality balance. Since we have somehow shifted away from a casual camaraderie, however, the loot council has become the body that decides who will be among the rich who gets richer and who will remain poor and sidelined. At this point, the less arbitrary systems of straight rolls or DKP would be more equitable. Oh, but wait! That assumes that the same people still get to raid consistently as used to be the case, a situation that unravels the argument. Oh well, guess there's no point in further QQ. It's my own choice to have only dps specs on my main rather than healing.
And no, I do not wish to reveal the name of the guild. If the goals of the guild have changed, so be it. If the goals of the guild have not really changed, just that we have drifted, then it'll eventually be fixed. Good people don't deserve to get bashed, only bad behavior. :-) I'm not getting to raid right now; but I love my guild and hope that I don't have to make the decision to leave because we no longer fit. We'll see. People change and guilds change. Putting content before the needs of existing guild members sucks and is unsustainable. The guild is run by highly committed, caring, very intelligent people. Only good will come out of the current distress. Just thank gawd that we don't systematically reward higher dps as lopsidedly as has been described in the article and some other comments.
Invader Zog Dec 9th 2009 5:42PM
"I do more DPS so I should get the better gear is not generally a good argument."
That said, I think there is some validity to (in a Guild loot system not for PUGs)
"I have gear that is equivalent in quality to you and am the same spec, but do much higher DPS [i.e. am a better player -- not DPS difference due to say one person working on adds and the other the boss], I should get the upgrade because you haven't even learned how to use the gear you do have"
I remember spending months farming OS25 for the Illustration. I was in there for only a single piece of loot and was helping to carry large numbers of low DPS folks who usually couldn't manage to stay alive through the fight, and would find it very aggravating to have to roll against every single person for the trinket.
When I would occasionally organize a pug, I would often announce in the loot rules that if you "suck" (i.e. die when you ought not too, low DPS, etc) that you will not be eligible for the "best" of the loot that drops. I thought that was a reasonably fair balance that would provide benefits to all.
poggg Dec 9th 2009 4:08PM
Hey, that picture is from my server. Awesome.
Ayiano Dec 9th 2009 4:58PM
Yea, my eyes lit up as I recognized the names right away from my former faction. At the risk of being down-voted, she definitely has ego issues.
poggg Dec 9th 2009 7:43PM
I agree. She's hardly the only one, either. It seems like half the players on the server are self-righteous egotists sometimes.
Janaa Dec 9th 2009 9:13PM
"It seems like half the players on *every* server are self-righteous egotists sometimes. "
Fixed that for you.
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Dec 9th 2009 10:03PM
only half?...
Broken_toes Dec 9th 2009 4:21PM
DKP is over rated, I'm sure it works lovely with a bunch of raiders who all get along. But in a raid where everyone is gearing... phhh sod that, take the roll and move on- you may get lucky next week.
In my opinion those raids where you win every roll cannot be beaten.
And yeah i hate it when I lose them all!
Zandrae Dec 9th 2009 6:48PM
Loot system is probably Zero Sum + Tax or EPGP.
It's probably being run as a mediocracy instead of a meritocracy. (Awarding people for showing up rather than showing up --and-- doing well.)
For open runs I let people roll (split loot up into three categories so people don't feel inclined to pass on an upgrade to save their one roll for that trinket/ring/weapon they want) and then reduce the maximum they roll out of depending on how many bosses I expect the group to down (TotC25 I have them reduce their rolls by 25). Someone can get lucky and win multiple items of the same type if everyone else rolls really low and they roll really high. This keeps people present rather than leaving when they get their first phat loot.
Trying to give loot based on DPS done in open raids is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot. Taking time after an open raid to work with some of the low end players and trying to help them up their game can put a derpy clueless casual on track to becoming a valuable raider.
Dstee Dec 9th 2009 4:25PM
Why should we care that someone from Team Galactic applied to another guild after they dissolved? I mean, isn't that what people do? How does that count for drama? You don't seem to be mentioning how half the guild went to a different guild on the same server or how another member of Team Galactic got denied by the same guild either.
Are you really that desperate for drama you'd be willing to spin any sort of news submitted into gossip just to fill out your news section?