Insider Trader: Of Arrows and Bullets
Insider Trader is your inside line on making, selling, buying and using player-made products. We'll cover everything from what to use, how to use it, and why you should care.We'll also make brief stops along the way to talk about what's going on among the people who love the crafting aspect of World of Warcraft.
Well, patch 3.3 has hit the ground, and we're all busy profiting from the vast number of people cycling through new characters, the Dungeon Finder, and new instances. Of course, the big news for Engineers is that there's a very significant new pair of recipes: Iceblade Arrows and Shatter Rounds.
These new items aren't without their own controversy, but it might be a little tough for everyone to understand. At least, it would certainly be worthwhile for us to check out the context of the issue. While some might call it a tempest in a teapot, many engingeers are disheartened with these new plans. Let's take a look behind the cut and examine why these arrows and bullets are such a big deal.
Both the Iceblade Arrows and Shatter Rounds use about the same materials and are actually incredibly cheap to make. The Iceblade Arrows take only a pair of Crystallized Shadow, while the Shatter Rounds are created with Crystallized Earth. With only a pair of crystallized elements, the Engineer can create an entire stack of 1000 projectiles. Both earth and shadow is easily farmed all over Northrend, though I tend to prefer to do such farming in Wintergrasp.
While the reagents to make Iceblade Arrows and Shatter Rounds are relatively cheap, you will have to put some effort in getting the plans in the first place. The plans require one Primordial Saronite to purchase, as well as Honored reputation with the Ashen Verdict. Primordial Saronite drops from 25-man Icecrown Citadel bosses, but you can also buy them for 23 Emblems of Frost. If you're a non-raider doing daily random dungeons to pick up the recipe, it'll take you about 12 days of random dungeons to pick up the plans for Iceblade Arrows or Shatter rounds. That's not exactly a huge burden, but it's definitely a base level of effort.
You can buy the plans for Shatter Rounds and Iceblade bullets right inside the instance to Icecrown Citadel. As soon as you run inside the raid instance, run up to the Ashen Verdict's bunker then swing to your right. Alchemist Finklestein is hanging out there, ready to sell you these incredibly useful patterns.
These projectiles represent a 24 paper doll DPS increase over the previous bullets and arrows. And while that's not a lot of damage in the scheme of things, raiders who are scraping for every advantage possible will certainly be eager to buy these items. And since they're relatively cheap to make, there's almost no reason for a Hunter not to use them with abandon.
But the creation of Iceblade Arrows and Shatter Rounds comes with an important restriction. In order to make the Shatter Rounds, you must be a Goblin Engineer. In order to make the Iceblade Arrows, you must be a Gnomish Engineer. This represents a significant disparity between the two engineering specializations, according to whether you're a gun-based Hunter or a bow-toting Hunter.
That means that even if you've always been an Engineer to make you're own bullets, that is no longer be "enough" to create this tier of ammunition. There's been some discussion about that on the forums already, including some folks having asked for a hotfix. The argument, of course, is that if you're an Engineer, you should be able to make your own projectiles regardless of whether you happen to be equipping a gun or a bow. To many folks, that's the whole point of being an Engineer.
I don't think the fact that you can only make one type of ammo is really that big a deal. While it would certainly be more convenient to be able to make your own ammunition, this is in no way the only important item in the game with the "rely on others" dynamic. You can't enchant your own gear, and make your gems, and make your own glyphs, and make your own leg kits, and so on. Heck, even the idea of doing instances is based on the idea that you rely on other people.
When you consider that it only takes a pair of Crystallized Shadow or Earth to make a stack of these bullets, you must realize the materials for their creation will be in no shortage. A successful Wintergrasp and a half hour of farming would probably leave you with enough ammunition to last dozens of hours of raiding. I wouldn't guess at a ratio of time-to-bullets, since everyone farms at different rates. But, really, how hard is it to farm some Crystallized Shadow?
I expect most people who really need the 24 DPS bump in ammo quality will probably be in guilds with an Engineer, anyway. The most likely routine will be for the hunter to farm their own materials, and hand them to their guildmate to turn them into bullets or arrows. And then they both happily go off to Icecrown to raid together. And since the new tier of ammunition is intended for Icecrown Citadel, that seems like a pretty fair exchange.
The Auction House dynamic of these projectiles will be based on convenience. If you were really hoping to gouge the market with these items, you're probably not going to have a lot of luck. You'll certainly reliably sell the projectiles to folks who don't have that engineer guildmate, but probably not for more than a few gold. (At least, not once the plans have more widely spread out among your server's populace.) I'm not sure I'd even pay two gold, personally, in lieu of gathering the materials myself, and tipping someone to take those items, press "Create All" and then go afk for a while.
That being said, it is definitely still a bummer that an engineering hunter might not be able to make their own stuff. That does tend to be why many hunters pick up the profession in the first place, and it's always nice to be self-reliant. Still, at the end of the day, I think Ghostcrawler nailed the issue when he said that if you can't afford these projectiles, you probably can't afford all the other stuff that goes into a raiding kit. In the face of enchants, gems, glyphs, potions, and leg kits, a couple crystallized elements is totally not a big deal. I think it all comes out in the wash.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Insider Trader (Professions)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Rilgon Dec 13th 2009 7:11PM
"And what other class has the expense that tanks have when it comes to repairs?"
Mail repairs are very close to plate repairs, fyi.
Edge Dec 13th 2009 7:22PM
I know more than any hunter that's for sure, my main being an enh shammy.
Rilgon Dec 13th 2009 7:24PM
"I know more than any hunter that's for sure, my main being an enh shammy."
How do you figure? We die just as often as you do (and if you mention Feign Death, you're an idiot), and we take as much, if not more weapon-based durability damage than you, what with the Volley bug STILL being around.
Loki Dec 14th 2009 12:46AM
@ Edge
I would wager that the costs of ammo and repairs are equal, if not more, than tank repairs. For the sake of argument, say you need 3k arrows/bullets per raid. Going by the guy who says the new ammo is going for 42g a stack, you're looking at 126g in ammo cost alone for a raid. Add in a 90g repair tab after numerous wipes, and you're over 200g for one raid. Are tank repairs 216g for a raid? According to the main tank in my guild, no. She pays approx. 150-175g for a numerous-wipe raid.
Yes, tank repairs compared to hunter repairs are way higher. But add in the ammo cost to said hunter, and raids are more expensive in total.
I just want that non-consumable ammo that Blizz keeps promising to finally show up. Doing that would engratiate all hunters to Blizz for a very long time.
Lokiodin
Aggramar-US
clundgren Dec 14th 2009 2:39AM
Be careful what you wish for...
One advantage of the system as is is that you get ammo upgrades, and bonus damage from ammo, on top of weapon upgrades. Blizzard could just "assume" you have unlimited ammo somewhere, like rogues do knives, etc...but you might well kiss those bonuses goodbye in the process.
You could see it as paying a little extra for an optional dps boost that is not available to other classes.
Denis Dec 13th 2009 6:41PM
Thats why i have a hunter engineer/alchemist ^^
Rilgon Dec 13th 2009 7:10PM
Congratulations.
I hope he is the exact specialty for the ammo that you need AND isn't attached to the one he already is, in case you need to switch.
I'm an Engineer myself, too, and because I chose to be Goblin for RP reasons back in patch 2.2, I'm being screwed in patch 3.3 by not being able to make my own arrows.
Pretty sweet, huh?
norcallights Dec 13th 2009 7:08PM
Just to clarify...
It's not just a 23 dps increase... it's 23 paper doll dps, which works out to be more like a 200 dps increase depending on gear and spec.
So yea... that's what we're complaining about. Other classes get their dps increases through gear. Hunters have to buy their dps to stay competitive.
Cataclysm can't come soon enough... I just hope they follow through and do away with consumable ammo.
Rilgon Dec 13th 2009 7:09PM
"These projectiles represent a 24 paper doll DPS increase over the previous bullets and arrows. "
And yet, in reality, which WoWInsider columnists never actually seem to address, this ammo is about a 200-250 DPS upgrade, which is why everyone that isn't a raving lunatic is up in arms about this.
"Don't worry guys, your dps will still be fine even if you don't have this ammo. "
Except in any guild worth its salt, Hunters will be FORCED to use this ammunition - it's on the same level as using DPS potions, flasks, food buffs, and the like; Hunters, however, are forced to have two additional costs tacked on just to do "competitive" DPS (which isn't even competitive - take a look at World of Logs and WoW Meter Online scoreboards sometime).
Skyrei Dec 13th 2009 7:31PM
A hunter buddy im my guild was selling them for 100 gold. Made nearly 2,000 gold before people started undercutting!
Tony Bowman Dec 13th 2009 7:54PM
you guys still have this completely wrong.
all the other professions can make anything in their trees, and they can get a proc on a craft depending on specialization.
engineers can't make everything in their trees, and nothing they can craft procs.
the specialization requirement for engineers and the epic ammo is completely ridiculous, and only makes an unfair situation vis a vis crafting for engineers that much more unfair.
it should be a proc and not a fork in the specialization, just like all the other professions.
Rilgon Dec 13th 2009 11:48PM
"it should be a proc and not a fork in the specialization, just like all the other professions."
See, if they'd done that, I'd have no problem with it. I have no issue with the rep requirements, the Primordial Saronite cost, none of it except the specialization requirement, because it precludes me from making my own ammo based on a mostly-cosmetic/RP choice I made over two years ago.
Telerion Dec 13th 2009 9:09PM
I know, let's ask Blizzard to allow us to have the same profession twice on a single char, that way we can level Engineering twice, once with Goblin and then the other with Gnomish.
Seriously, let's say I achieve Shatter Rounds for my gun, then a significantly better bow drops for me, so I drop Goblin, pickup Gnomish and buy the Iceblade Arrows. Cool. But wait, now an even better gun drops and I need to switch back to Shatter Rounds. I've wasted a ton of Frost badges and money.
Gee? Should I not take the improved bow/gun because I can't make the ammo for it?
Come on Blizzard, what were you thinking of? GC's response really lowered my respect for him. It's not an economic issue for me, it's a convenience issue. The primary reason I am still an engineer is the ammo issue. I can carry the mats with me and as needed, make more ammo. Now with the best ammo, I am limited to one kind of ammo.
kyle Dec 14th 2009 2:50AM
Ok, won't babble a entire paragraph here, but the first descent wep you get your hands on in these new 5 mans is a crossbow . . . . buf said.
Kukuena Dec 14th 2009 2:53AM
yep agreed! the ammo should not be tied to the style of eng. It's dumb. theres plenty of gold dumps in the game already then to have engineers, the most expensive trade in the game, be one of em.
Ringo Flinthammer Dec 14th 2009 3:57AM
Since you don't get Ashen Verdict reputation in the new 5-mans, that's not really relevant.
Ringo Flinthammer Dec 14th 2009 3:57AM
I love how all the people scoffing at engineering hunters being irritated by this skip over the fact that NO OTHER ASHEN VERDICT RECIPES ARE SPECIALIZED.
Let's throw a specialization on all of those and see how that goes over, hmm? Hey, it's a game of interacting with others -- if you're a hunter.
Vagrant Dec 14th 2009 4:03AM
for me as a hunter it's the inconvenience of it all that annoys me. I have to go to an auction house or find that engineer, buy bullets/arrows, get some spare cause i don't want to nag him every other day, store them in my bank, arghh.. a bow drops, exchange bullets for arrows, stash spare bullets in bank. Why do rogues have unlimited throwing weapons? and if we're putting vital upgrades in some craft, where is the alchemist with his wound poison xII or whatever number we're at?
Kharay1977 Dec 14th 2009 6:22AM
@Falcon6: "If the only way to make the game harder is to add restrictions on ammo that's used primarily by a single class...well, I don't even know how that works out."
To me it has always been about the entire picture. Especially because of those of the players that DO keep whining for more and more dumbing down. Give someone a finger and they will take your entire arm. So, I'd rather see the game develop in this direction, with a bit more challenge and decision making involved. But, again, that's personal.
I have always wanted a game to offer me decisions that actually have a serious impact and aren't trivial and meaningless. But, well, I definately see your point.
My take on the matter is, much like your take on it, based on personal preference.
WoWie Zowie Dec 14th 2009 7:21AM
i'm gnomish engineer. i admit its a bit wonky to single out 1 class to work a little harder for a gear upgrade.
on the other side, however, when you think about it, hunters are the ONLY class that are going to be able to buy their way to a flat dps upgrade.
if you want to qq about exorbitant pricings for crafted enchants, look no further than Jewel Crafters and Enchanters.
these ammo upgrades are for raiders. and like its been mentioned already, if you're doing heroics or whatnot just use vendored ammo. or mammoth cutters. the epic ammo is only going to be used on boss fights where dps is important i promise you that. you think every hunter is going to use them on trash mobs?
as for availability, do you really think its going to be 'that' hard to find someone in the raid that is an engineer? are you all aware that engineering doesn't suck for raiders anymore? hyperspeed accelerators, flexweave underlay, springy arcanoweave, jeeves, etc.. this is raid and dps utility here. point being that an engineer is probably readily available for a raiding guild.
prices might be high in AH, but your raiding guild will more likely than not have a supply for the hunters in your raid.