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12-16-2009 @ 8:15PM
Sorry for the double post, but I really would like an answer to this question.Uther telling Sylvanas/Jaina that there must always be a lich king, or the scourge would run wild... isn't that a complete retroactive destruction of the lich king and his powers? Not a retcon... a retdestro. Because it was the Lich King losing his grasp on the outer reaches of his minions that allowed the Forsaken gain their free will, and a similar process with the death knights, no? I just don't see how this can possibly work from a logical standpoint. It seems like if what Uther said was true, wouldn't that mean a complete dissonance with how forsaken/DK's came into being?
12-16-2009 @ 8:34PM
the lich king lost power when Keal'thas attacked nothred and loosed control over the banshees and then some more scourges. He was never able to reclaim his power. While the DK's just broke from him because of personal matteres, feelings.
12-16-2009 @ 8:35PM
@ PyromelterI seem to recall some in game flavor text stating that the Forsaken were especially strong willed (thus the racial trait of Will of the Forsaken). Death Knights would, I would guess, be explained similarly since they were "heroes" prior to their death. I guess that would mean that the less strong willed undead would simply wander the countryside looking for braaiiinnsss. Not sure what would become of obviously more intelligent minions (necromances, npc death knights, etc) I guess those would become Forsaken-like, though not necessarily allied with Sylvanas.
12-16-2009 @ 8:52PM
Wouldn't that just make the Scourge just easier to kill if the less intelligent undead became aimless then?It would seem that dispatching the Scourge while they're in isolated and/or disorganized packs of undead would be much easier than defeating a force being coordinated by Liches/Necromancers. Especially since then there's much less chance of said Liches/Necromancers raising up your dead on the battlefield to bolster their numbers.
12-16-2009 @ 9:21PM
Things have changed between then (WCIII TFT) and now. Arthas united with Ner'zhul. All the power has been concentrated into one source. Now, is it the Lich King or his Helm of Domination (LK's, not the AQ20 drop)? If it's the LK, then if he's offed, the undead would lose organization and be offed pretty easily. If it's the Helm, then that power would just go nuts until someone restrained it.Who wants to don the Helm of Domination? Not me!
12-16-2009 @ 9:25PM
@CobaltIt would be easier to kill them in the long run. The problem is that they would be running aimlessly throughout Azeroth while waiting to be destroyed. The militaries and militias of the world have volunteered to help defeat the Scourge and have received various amounts of training in doing so. Right now, they're the ones being targeted. It's a whole different story when the scourge are running around like animals killing women and children and farmers and ranchers. Having them all in one place is strategically preferable.This actually calls the Lich King's strategy into question. He's massing his force against the enemy's force World War One style. It would make much more sense to bypass the Alliance/Horde forces and strike their supply and logistics sources blitzkrieg style. Of course, plot and gameplay restrictions necessitate the kind of fight we have. Maybe we just have him that well besieged; maybe he'd breakout if he really could.
12-16-2009 @ 9:27PM
The fact that people seem to be missing is the little blurb that Uther just sticks in there and doesn't really get much attention:"I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth"It's not that they'd be aimless and easier to kill, but their full brunt force will finally be unleashed. Arthas, for the glimmer of good he's done in all of this, has somehow prevented the Lich King from just going "Hey...all you forces in Icecrown in front of the gates and around my fortress, go wtfpwn Northrend, and then we'll raise them all and attack Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms.
12-16-2009 @ 9:33PM
@IvanZephyrI guess I missed that part. I still stand by what I said, but that's probably a much more important factor than my bit.
12-17-2009 @ 8:49AM
I think what would happen, should the lich king die, is that the scourge would spread like a plague. All humanoids would become mindless ghouls and the like aimlessly wandering around Azeroth. That's not what the lich king wants. It's better for him to concentrate his resources into more powerful intellegent undead that he could use to cross between worlds and smash the burning leigon.It seems that demons are immune to the plague of undeath (afaik) so a swarm of brainless ghouls and other zombie animals wouldn't be much use against them.
12-16-2009 @ 9:52PM
@IvanZephyr"I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth"Isn't there a quest chain Icecrown that proves there's nothing left of Arthas? Something about that little boy that was his heart? So he has nothing left, no wait now he does, when is Blizz gonna make up their minds?
12-16-2009 @ 10:07PM
Well that was Tirion's opinion, was never stated as fact.
12-16-2009 @ 10:36PM
On the topic of the Lich King and the Scourge though, couldn't they beat the Lich King and eliminate the problem of control with one coordinated attack? Simply have the myriad forces of the Argent Dawn, Argent Crusade, Knights of the Ebon Blade, Ashen Verdict, Silver Covenant, Sunreavers, and the various factions of the Alliance and Horde go and attack every Scourge holding across Northrend and Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms while the Adventurers(Players) raid Icecrown Citadel itself and take out the Lich King. With the Lich King and Scourge armies destroyed near simultaneously, there's no worries about uncontrolled rampant Scourge. I imagine the united efforts to do this would be 100x more epic than the Battle of Mount Hyjal.
12-16-2009 @ 11:16PM
havn't you guys ever watched a good zombie flick? None of those zombies were ever organized or being directed by a leadership. They were all just a few, then a pack, then a couple hundred, then a few thousand infected zombies moving off pure impulse trying to find food. Now, obviously as we saw during last years Zombie invasion, the Scourge plague spreads much differently than the "traditional" zombie plague...but whose to say that one bite wouldnt turn an NPC or a player into a ghoul in the case of the Lich King losing control and the Scourge running rampant. My point is, to end my pointless ramblings...if the LK died, that would not automatically = easy to kill Scourge. There is no reason to believe that a single ghoul would be any less deadly post LK than it is now.
12-17-2009 @ 12:52AM
Nolls, I didn't say kill them after the Lich King is beat, but at the same time as he is being beaten. The Lich King will be distracted, and taking them out before and during his defeat would ensure they're not all wild and destroying the world after the Lich King is beat. A coordinated assault would be perfect and very much epic.Plus who wouldn't want to see the Plaguelands, Tirisfal, and Silverpine rebuilt to their former Quel'thalas/Lordaeron pre-Scourge glory?
12-17-2009 @ 4:04AM
As for the scourge running rampant - doesn't anyone remember the chaos of the WotLK pre-launch event? Cities became wastelands, the bodies were everywhere. Zombies flooded everywhere. The only safe place was in the air. Now take that global. Or else imagine the liches and greater scourge creatures forming their own armies, catching all living and undead in the middle of a hundred small wars.And Arthas' soul/soulless debate. Perhaps removing his heart and placing it in the roots of Icecrown protected it from the corruption that took the rest of his soul. There remains one part, that echo of the innocent child's image, that has not been destroyed. Which only leads to the intentional/accidental debate. Did Arthas do that knowing he was being consumed or was it the act of self-betrayal that Tirion seems to think it was?I'm so digging this storyline and can't wait for the resolution. I got branches, antlers, and giant bear butt that's got a grudge to settle.
12-17-2009 @ 12:19PM
@IvanThe fact that people seem to be missing is the little blurb that Uther just sticks in there and doesn't really get much attention:"I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth"I am well aware of this. It doesn't change the premise of my question. The fact is that before arthas was the lich king, he was just a death knight in service of the lich king, and during that time, when the lich king's powers were weakened, the forsaken gained free will, and last I checked weren't going around mindlessly eating brains of everyone. One could argue that the forsaken may be bad for azeroth overall, due to their own significant atrocities, but you cannot deny that Uther's statement there is just plain wrong - just like he was wrong about Stratholme.@Nolls"My point is, to end my pointless ramblings...if the LK died, that would not automatically = easy to kill Scourge. There is no reason to believe that a single ghoul would be any less deadly post LK than it is now. "Only problem with that statement is that the zombies/scourge in Azeroth are only there because of the Lich King (and presumably his necromancers), and not one of those "if you get bitten by a zombie you become a zombie" situations. Anyway you could probably round up every scourge zombie in all of northrend, get a few mages to cast blizzard/flamestrike, and AoE them down in about 10 seconds.finally...@Angry "As for the scourge running rampant - doesn't anyone remember the chaos of the WotLK pre-launch event? Cities became wastelands, the bodies were everywhere. Zombies flooded everywhere. The only safe place was in the air. "That was a coordinated assault by the Lich King, please correct me if I'm wrong.I guess my premise is that I think Uther is wrong, and I hope he is wrong, because as great a guy as he was, I can't but help thinking that if he had supported arthas at stratholme, things would have turned out differently. Uther was certainly a great man and great paladin, but he utterly failed Arthas in life (and to a certain extain failed Lordaeron by not understanding the scourge menace), and I will be a bit saddened if Bolvar or someone actually does have to take up the throne because of this absolutely dissonant story mechanic. I've still yet to see how Blizzard's loremasters can resolve that type of dissonance, at least to my own satisfaction. All evidence from the story to this point shows that when the Lich King loses control over any of his minions, they turn on him, and don't become genocidal maniacs (Wrathgate Forsaken notwithstanding), and oftentimes become heros for the horde or alliance. I think if Blizz wants to keep scourge in the game, they can find better ways, or at least for cataclysm, make it a pretend type thing where arthas/scourge are still around and as you level up your character it's on their own timeline, catching up to current events at level 85.
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