Drama Mamas: Dungeon Finder advice
by Robin Torres 
Dec 18th 2009 at 9:00PM
Most of us have been having a great time with the new Dungeon Finder. (And if you haven't, then you really, really should. It's a gamechanger.) We have our good PuG stories and, of course, the bad PuGs. My first experience was in a dungeon where all but the main boss had been downed. I got in because the rogue whose place my mage was taking had quit in order to turn in a quest. None of us could figure out why he didn't want to wait the three minutes, get the random dungeon rewards and then turn in the quest. But his loss was my gain. He was a bad PuGger (PuGgie? PuGinator?) because he left his team hanging and waiting to pick up a 5th person before they could finish their dungeon and move onto the next one.
Here are some more examples of bad PuGgers that I think most of us can agree on:
- The player who puts the tank on follow and doesn't participate.
- The tanks who don't pay attention to healer mana and then complain when they die.
- The players who don't manage their aggro, regardless of role.
- Rude and/or spammy chatters.
- Players who make careless mistakes and repeatedly wipe the group. (One mistake does not a bad PuGger make.)
Dear Drama Mamas: Like most people since 3.3 came out, I've been running with the new Random Dungeon feature pretty frequently. It's been a lot of fun, but last night, I had what I would consider my first bad experience with it.
I'll preface this with the following: I'm a power gamer. Most of my friends are power gamers. We spend a lot of time trying to get the most out of our characters, be that tradeskills, talent specs, gear choices, addons... I understand that we are far from the norm, and in most cases, we don't expect people to play at the same level we do. People play the game for different reasons, and everyone has a right to have fun in the game.
F
or most of the heroics that shipped with WotLK, they're not difficult at all for my group of friends. Since the new LFG tool came out, we've had lots of cases of people doing sub-1K DPS in Violet Hold, Culling of Stratholme, whatever. These instances are still very easy to complete for my friends, so we have fun getting people new badges, gear, drake mounts, whatever. The problem however, comes with the new instances. They are a step up in difficulty, and the new gear can be upgrades to those who are not only fresh level 80s, but also those who may have had bad luck with gear drops in their raids. Which leads us to last night.We had our tank, healer, and DPS (me) queued for a random dungeon. We got Pit of Saron as the random, and a random mage and DK joined. After the first boss, we noticed the DK had very low DPS (about 1100). He had joined as DPS, but he was in mostly blue-quality tank gear, with a couple PVP items. The first boss dropped plate DPS gear, which he won, and made a comment about how it was such a great upgrade over his green DPS bracer. After the second boss, his DPS actually decreased, but the boss still died. After this, I made a comment that if he's going to queue as DPS, it would probably be best to at least have a DPS spec (he had 68 points in Unholy) and be able to at least be able to match the tank for DPS. I suggested he visit some websites such as ElitistJerks (mentioned that it was an unfortunate name, but a good site) to find information on better DPS specs, rotations, gear, etc. The DK was quiet, we continued the instance, and dropped the final boss. The DK won the DPS BP, told us to f-off, and dropped group.
So my question is, was I in the wrong? Should I have kept my mouth shut? We had the DPS in the group to carry his sub-1K DPS, but most groups may not. We were trying to help improve his game, so he'd be more effective, and not be such a liability. Should we have not even tried, and just vote-kicked him for not being effective? I realize I could be classified as being elitist for this, but is it really being elitist to ask that people meet some minimum level of effectiveness? Signed, Looking for Advice on Looking for Group
Drama Mama Robin: Hey Looking, the new Dungeon Finder tool has brought a lot of casual players to PuGs. Players with limited time to play WoW used to not have time to find groups for instances. Now, if players can play during primetime on their realms, they can find PuGs in a matter of minutes (instantly if they are healers or tanks at max level) and chain run a few of them in an hour or two. Because of this, you are going to get players who are used to a more relaxed style of play and not practiced at speedy combinations of keypresses for maximizing damage output. And yes, they are geared out in green world drops and quest blues... at first... until they get the better gear in the heroics... as you noticed.
But here is my question to you, Looking: If your group is downing bosses the first try, then what do you care what some PuGger's spec/gear/skill level is? Sure, that DPS isn't going to cut it in a hard mode raid, but -- and this is the important point -- it actually is enough to help you power gamers down bosses in random dungeons. Admittedly, I have a bit of a casual chip on my shoulder and I'm protective of my fellow casual gamers, but I really don't see why you need to force your opinions on them if they are doing enough to get you through.
And, let's be clear on this, you and Elitist Jerks and all you other power gamers out there have differing opinions among yourselves as to the best specs. You say Unholy isn't a good DPS spec, but the DKs in my raiding guild were all discussing after patch 3.3 that Unholy is now the best spec for DPS. I don't know who is the "most" right, but my guess is that there are a few combinations of talents that give comparable results. Regardless, you don't have to invite "baddies" to your guild. You don't even have to play with them again if you don't want to -- anyone on your ignore list, which is now cross realm, won't show up in your random groups.
Here is my suggestion for your enjoyment as well as the enjoyment of the players with whom you PuG: disable Recount for the random PuGs, forget about the Inspect feature and just be tolerant of those gamers less leet than you. These instances don't take very long, after all. So after you've "carried" a player through one, you can just disband the party, reform with your friends and take your chances on the next random. "Bad" players don't have to affect your fun for longer than 15 minutes or so that way. But feel free to have fun abusing them in guildchat. What they don't know won't hurt them.
Drama Mama Lisa: Grouping via the dungeon finder can feel like grouping with a bunch of Ferengi, all intent on enumerating the Rules of Acquisition. Can't we stop talking about stuff and numbers long enough to enjoy the game? Do we no longer WANT a challenge, an opportunity to demonstrate how our own skill and ability can make a weak group shine?/sigh
Very well. If we simply must handle relations with other players in this mercenary manner, I'm willing to play along.
Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #7: Keep your ears open.
You can't listen if you're too busy talking. Instead of telling others how to play, ask a question or make an observation: "I notice you're running Unholy. I didn't think that was a strong DPS spec anymore ..." Now shush – and listen. Starting a conversation with players is a great way to pave the way for new ideas. Dropping crit(icism) bombs on people's heads? Not so much.
Rule of Acquisition #17: A contract is a contract is a contract ... but only between Ferengi.
Your groupmate is obviously not a party to the Ferengi high-DPS clause. No need to try to serve him papers. Contract null and void – let the guy play in peace.
Rule of Acquisition # 22: A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
You're downing the bosses regardless of one group member's DPS. If you'll put a lid on telling others how to play, you'll be able to hear the tintinnabulation of coins pattering into your bags.
Rule of Acquisition #23: Nothing is more important than your health ... except for your money.
You say that weak healer's letting your HP bar ride a little low? You're beating bosses and raking in the latinum. Carry on, and profit.
Rule of Acquisition #31: Never make fun of a Ferengi's mother.
... or his gear, or his spec, or his skill ... and you should probably be sensitive of the other races, too.
Rule of Acquisition #33: It never hurts to suck up to the boss.
Who cares if you're doing more than anyone else? Seal the deal. Profit.
Rule of Acquisition #34: War is good for business.
Rule of Acquisition #35: Peace is good for business.
Make war on the mobs; make peace in your party.
Rule of Acquisition #48: The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife.
We'll say it again: A conversation between equals goes a lot farther than "advice" from "betters."
Rule of Acquisition #59: Free advice is seldom cheap.
Is "helpful advice" really free if it comes at the price of an uncomfortable run packed with groupmates criticizing your play?
Rule of Acquisition #62: The riskier the road, the greater the profit.
You knew the risk of being grouped with weaker players when you queued up. To reap the random dungeon reward, you must accept the risk that you may have to shoulder the responsibility for the group's success.
Rule of Acquisition #125: You can't make a deal if you're dead.
But you're not – so keep the deal rolling.
Rule of Acquisition #168: Whisper your way to success.
If your groupmate asks for feedback, show some tact. Use /whisper.
Rule of Acquisition #190: Hear all, trust nothing.
You can't make an accurate judgment about your groupmate until you hear his side. Is he experimenting with his spec? Is he a knowledgeable player playing an alt? Listen to what others have to say; don't trust your own first impressions.
Rule of Acquisition #194: It's always good to know about new customers before they walk in your door.
Inspect others all you like, but you'll never know the whole story until you play with them and talk with them.
Rule of Acquisition #203: New customers are like razor-toothed gree-worms. They can be succulent, but sometimes they bite back. You can count on the latter being the case if you open up a can of unsolicited "advice" on their heads.
And finally,
Rule of Acquisition #299: After you've exploited someone, it never hurts to thank them. That way, it's easier to exploit them next time.
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, WoW Social Conventions, Virtual selves, Instances, Features, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 13)
Gothia Dec 20th 2009 5:04AM
Healer / Tank carry the group, if you have 2 competent people in those positions then dps matters very little.To rag on a subpar player because he is not up to standards is the Norm for most groups that I have seen, but they are also followed with good advice if the player hasn't totally tuned out. Moral to the story is Dps don't let your heads grow too large because there are only 2 reasons why the run is successful or not - you speed up the run which I appreciate, but most of these heroics can be 3 manned with little of no problem.
Dag Dec 21st 2009 1:40PM
Being so late to the comment game I doubt this will be read, but every time I see a DPS character do less than 1000 (or even less than 1500), I can't help but think of this post from greedy goblin. His point is basically that having low DPS is not about being casual; it's about just plain not caring.
If you want to do your "job" and do it well, you don't have to do countless hours of research on sites like EJ, you just have to read talent tooltips.
http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/omg-big-shadowboltz.html
(or just google "omg big shadowboltz")
crandlee Jan 8th 2010 11:20AM
I actually kind of agree on the sub-1K DPS. This means that there are either some reg dungeon gear choices that need to be made or some rotations that need to worked on. Now, I'm not going to kick or make fun of anybody unless they are being jerks themselves. But, if you are a DPS role entering a heroic with sub-1K DPS, you should be considerate to your future PuG and take some time in regulars to improve your game. It is, however, completely plausible that you might be sitting at around 1300 DPS (not great DPS, but still contributing IMO). That person should still be looking for ways to improve sooner - either by gear, talents, or rotations - rather than later.
cowfodder Dec 18th 2009 9:17PM
Drama Momma Robin:
I have to respectfully disagree. I am a pretty casual player (1-2 times a week max), and I play a DK. Being a casual player is no excuse for sub-par performance, and definately not an excuse for the poor attitude. I've done a bit of raiding, but am mostly in a mix of t7 and t8, and completely amazed a guild mate of mine (another dk using the same spec) who was in full t9-25 man gear when I was pulling almost the same dps as him in H-pos.
I guess the main points are that this pugger should not have been in the new instance with such low gear, and should have just kept his mouth shut if he didn't appreciate the advice.
And BTW, last I heard recount still wasn't working right cross realm. (Not at robin, just in general)
Mike Dec 18th 2009 9:44PM
I know the feeling. One of my guild's primary DPS is an Unholy Death Knight (just switched from Blood) in T9-25. I'm a casual with a mix of Heroic/T7/T8/T9 (ranging from iLevel 174 (Green +crit proc trinket I haven't bothered replacing) to 245 (chest from ToC25)). Ran Frozen Halls with him yesterday (thus no raid buffs), and I barely trailed him.
Getting sub-1k DPS is quite sad. On my 71 Paladin (purely quest-geared), I hit nearly 1k in Nexus last night. After 80 levels, you should know your class well enough that you can't get below 1k if you try with your eyes closed. If you are, then I really don't know what you did to level all this way.
Gemini Dec 18th 2009 10:10PM
After 80 levels, sure. But Death Knights are an exception. You only play them for 22 levels before you max out (I'm not counting the starting zone). You get a lot of noobs who level a toon to 55 and then roll a DK, have no idea how to play it, but are able to quickly get to level 80 because DKs are easymode leveling. Hence you get a massive amount of noobish DKs, especially since the right talent choices aren't always immediately obvious to the untrained eye.
Eatmyminion Dec 18th 2009 11:54PM
The point is not whether or not these people belong in heroic instances in their current gear. I think anyone will agree that someone in greens and blues should not be in a heroic instance. The point the Drama Mamas are making is that 1. you're downing bosses and 2. you're not dying. If either of those two points are true, who the flip cares? Is it so much extra work to "carry" someone in subpar gear?
Random dungeons with random people are just that. Random dungeons with random people. These random people are not going to make up your raids. They, in most instances, will not be your friends, merely passing acquaintances. Their gear or playing style is simply not your concern outside of how it affects your experience in the instance, and I doubt killing bosses and not dying is something to complain about.
Summary in three words: leave them alone. Stifle your ego and let them get their free badges and loots. And if you're feeling particularly kind, perhaps strike up a conversation about their playing style and give them resources, but do it under the guise of simply giving advice, not accusing them of ruining your day just because they do not have the knowledge or skill on how to press the right buttons fast enough and in the right order. It's simply the polite thing to do. Feel free to bash them mercilessly in private channels but don't be a jerk to them.
However, the minute their DPS becomes a hindrance is the minute you use the votekick.
Nadia Dec 19th 2009 1:31AM
I, too disagree with the Mamas this time.
The fact that he was in Pit of Saron in that level of gear makes me think he switched it after zoning in. Maybe he was swearing and leaving because he was a ninja and thought Looking was calling him out.
I have guildmates who are fresh 80s in blues and greens, and when we have them in a group and randomize, we never get anything higher than Violet Hold even with the tank and healer being geared enough for ICC 10.
Jay Dec 19th 2009 2:58AM
You are so wrong Nadia. For one thing is it now stated by the developers that all gear, even that in your bags is counted when they work out if you are allowed in the instance or not.
As for him being in PoS in bad gear, that happened to me in FoS when my hear was way below level. A GM responded to me that when there are shortages of players the system will take a player of lower gear to round out the group rather than making he other 4 people wait any longer.
I agree with the premise. Put your recount away... it doesn't work anyway so no need getting yourself all flustered.
Docp Dec 19th 2009 6:37AM
I find the most grating thing about sub-standard DPS is that they can get away with it, when on my tank and healer chars I had to go through all the correct channels to gear up, normal instances, craftables, 5man quests and scouring the AH in order to ensure I was appropriately geared before doing heroics. When I hit 80 on my paladin it took me two weeks before I felt comfortable doing a heroic (and I play a lot, 5-6 hours a day).
However, and this is the most annoying thing as a healer, this "I can get carried" attitude is really starting to spread into tanks and I'd be willing to bet this is because a lot of these people got carried through as DPS. I have seen no end of fresh 80's think they can tank without the first clue about gear/spec/playstyle, and whilst on some of my better toons I can compensate it makes my life a living nightmare, and when my healer merely meets the gear standards of the instance it is often impossible for me to keep you alive, but no prizes for guessing who gets blamed for this.
Put simply this is not a 'casual' vs 'hardcore' thing, it's a lazy vs non-lazy thing. If you're not willing to put the time in normal mode dungeons and instead expect people to pull you through you're being rude.
K Dec 19th 2009 12:09PM
Robin missed the point like a champion...
There is a difference between casual and ignorant. You saying you protect your fellow casuals in this case is like saying you protect people who drive a car without a license.
The 68-points-in-Unholy comment didn't mean that Unholy is bad. It meant that 68 points in Unholy is bad. You know why? Because if you run a dungeon as DPS you do not pick tanking and PVP talents to go with it, which is what 68 points in Unholy means you did.
This is such a widespread movement, that one should not try to help people improve in the game (which was what Looking etc was trying to achieve). You tell someone to maybe check out a gear guide on wow.com and a talent build on elitistjerks.com and they just tell you to fuck off because they have no interest in actually improving.
Guess what, if you're going to play with people, then this is unacceptable. Being "casual" does not change this. If you want to play solo, then go ahead, but if you're interested in group play, then this kind of ignorant, arrogant and rude behavior is not to be tolerated.
lethian Dec 19th 2009 5:29PM
^ this
Flad Dec 21st 2009 4:48PM
@K - exactly.
Also, if the person is from another realm, you cannot whisper them. I wish you could, because people are more likely to get defensive if you offer constructive criticism where others can see it, but oh well.
LP Dec 18th 2009 9:20PM
Here's my opinion on this. I often compare WoW instancing to amateur sport. You'll always have good and bad players, and people will often want the good players on their team. You also have the casual bad players who just want to have fun but won't put the effort to be competitive.
At one point or the other, you have to think about the others. It's a team game, you don't just think about yourself, and this goes for person who asked for advice and this goes for the DK and the both of you drama mamas.
If you're being a burden on everyone, you'll notice it, and the others will notice it. Criticism isn't a bad thing, the way it is brought is often the bad thing, especially in WoW. I don't think "looking" was wrong in her attempts, his intent were probably only that of helping someone get better, something I've done at least a 100 times to random players that I just pugged once and decided to give build advices. I helped a guy who had much better gear than me, but pugged it all and was doing less DPS than me, and he was quite happy to receive several advices.
If you're too stubborn and selfish to be open to criticism and ideas from others to make yourself better and be a better team member, then maybe you shouldn't be playing instances at all.
Also, something both mamas completely missed out on was that Unholy builds have been amongst the best in DPS build for both PVE and PVP, but that 68 out of 71 points into unholy IS a bad build. A good unholy build will usually only require 51 points, the other 20 points being spent in Blood usually for increase in damage.
So please, learn a bit about the game itself before commenting about how the person was wrong.
Stages Dec 19th 2009 1:01PM
As someone who raids as unholy, thank you for saving me from having to make this post.
Riltia Dec 18th 2009 9:19PM
I'm actually going to disagree with the Drama Mamas here, for once. And this is why:
When you take a DPS or two with subpar DPS, apart from causing your healer/tank to work harder, you're affecting a much wider group of players than you think. Let's say we have a mage with 1k DPS who's chain running heroics at a rate of 3 per hour, with a completely new group for each. If my group doesn't tell him he's poor and he needs to improve, then his poor DPS is going to affect the next group, then the next, then the next, and so forth.
What about when he's confident enough for a raid? His gear and/or spec could look good on paper, but in practise it's poor, and it affects the raid. If his DPS was 2-3k higher, it could lead to a much quicker kill and a lot less strain on the healers/tanks, and therefore a more pleasant experience for all.
Also, it affects his performance. I enjoy dailies/questing on my Destro Warlock far more than I do on my Holy Priest or Protection Warrior, simply because my DPS is that much higher. High DPS = Quick Kills = Quick Dailies/Quests = More gold/hour. One reason I started to favour my warlock simply was this - That I could get things done a lot quicker.
I noticed you said "Casuals". Ugh, please don't. It's adding fuel to the "Casual = Bad" fire, which is one which needs to be put out. You can have great "casual" players, and poor "casual" players. Turning up to a Frozen Halls HC in greens and doing 1k DPS isn't being casual, it's being a poor player full stop (or period for you US types). I am what you'd call a casual raider - I only go to raids when I feel like it, usually the odd few VoAs a month - and I tend to be near the top of the DPS meters.
Angus Dec 18th 2009 9:59PM
I agree with this almost 100%. I will add 1 more thing.
The guy was not willing to listen, didn't know how to gear and needed help otherwise he was going to ruin people's days.
I am pretty sure that if I didn't get this exact person, I got his just as horribad twin. We had 1 dps as a pug, DK, in green and blues with tank gear. I looked at his spec and said Have you looked up any info from your class or role in that class?
He got uppity right away and I cut him off.
I'm not trying to be a dick. I am trying to help you, if you don't want the help, or want to listen to the help, then why should the 4 of us help you? You need to help yourself first.
"I just dinged last week."
That doesn't excuse your spec. You could go buy greens better for DPS on the auction house if you knew what to look for. Did you roll need on that neck against a tank?
"Yea, it is better than my blue was."
No it wasn't. It has block on it. Some tank lost it to a person unwilling to look up small stuff about their class.
"We don't need you, I can tank."
He called for a vote to kick me. The fact that all 4 people besides him had the exact same guild tag apparently didn't register. He was swiftly kicked by my angry wife.
People like this guy jump from group to group sucking their effort and giving nothing in return. You don't need leeches.
Quit defending bad players. If they want to play in a social game, they should be willing to follow social norms for what they are participating in. When running instances you are expected to at least know what you are doing. It is expected that you know your class at least enough to have appropriate gear, a decent spec, and play somewhat well both in damage and in not being a moron.
The DK in the letter got 1 of 4 right.
Sorcefire Dec 18th 2009 11:07PM
So why are we debating on how to offer criticism to players we perceive to be unprepared? Why isn't the LFG system designed to account for gear/specs/everything short of players mashing the right buttons?
Seems that the rather broad range of instances a player is qualified for is the root cause of all this drama. Players showing up in higher-end heroics in greens is not a failure of the player, but rather the system that let him join in the first place.
I'm pretty confident that most of the more common bad pugging experiences are somehow related to the LFG system. Players who are undergeared for an instance shouldn't make it through the sieve. Players with 1k GS shouldn't be grouped with 4k+ toons. Tanks in greens/blues shouldn't be grouped with ToC25 geared DPS.
Players who are AFK or AFK-follow should be kicked, end of story. Players not in the right spec or gear for their role should be questioned and kicked if no compelling reason. Those are all options we players have to manage our group, but blaming them for getting into places they shouldn't is not right or at all productive.
Enderwig Dec 19th 2009 2:07AM
I have to, for the first that I can remember, completely disagree with the Mamas here. It seems like you had already decided to side with the "casual". Let me give a quick example.
A new acquaintance of mine dings 80 with his DK, his first toon. I run a heroic with him (this was months ago, btw). He does about 700 dps. My imp is doing about as much as him. I look at his spec and he's got about 27 points in each tree. This is just about as viable as 68 in any one tree (68 points in one tree = terribad).
I point this out to him, in about the same way the person above does. Instead of shutting up and taking his loot and then turning around and flipping out, he says, "Yeah I've noticed I'm not quite as high as other people, but I don't know what to do." Bam, golden opportunity. Long story short, I give him what advice I can, point him to EJ, WoW.com, etc. and he now is the highest melee dps in our guild. Casuals can get great too and it doesn't take that much effort. I want to have fun while playing. I don't look at meters in 5mans, pugs, or raids. However, people that are as unwilling as this person was to contribute to a TEAM effort do not deserve to stay on the team. I marvel that this guy didn't kick him out earlier because I know most of the people I've pugged with over the last couple weeks would have kicked him almost immediately. Run it with 4 and that means more loot for the people contributing. Instead, they graciously gave him some very nice upgrades (which he obviously didn't put to good use, since his DPS went down) as well as tried to give him a chance to improve.
If we have to be afraid of offering people that simply are not performing well advice, then people will not get any better. You never know when that guy/girl you offered advice to will turn into one of the best players that you know, just because you threw him/her a lifeline. Please don't discourage people from trying to help!
Heremod Dec 18th 2009 9:25PM
I want to add I'm not saying everyone needs to do top, or even expected dps for their gear.
All I'm saying is that when you queue for a heroic, you are making a promise to your group mates that "I believe that if 5 of me were in a group, for any of the original heroics, we would be able to beat the heroic. It might be hard, we might wipe, but we could do it."
Five of that player is question would fail.