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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: What dungeon have you had to relearn?
by Adam Holisky 
Dec 21st 2009 at 8:00AM
The random dungeon finder is not only great for gearing up alts and getting mains the necessary badges to fill out their gear -- it's an amazing tool which forces an increase in the WoW community's collective knowledge about instances and game mechanics. And while some of these game mechanics will be a discussion for a future time (hint: tomorrow's Breakfast Topic), today let's focus on what instances you've had to "relearn," more or less.
Take Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom. Prior to the random heroic dungeons, I probably ran this place a grand total of five times. My warrior tank got the bracers on his fist run through it, and I did it on a few more alts just to get the Northrend Dungeon Hero achievement. Other than that, when it was the heroic daily I'd just skip it and find something else to do. Nothing annoyed me more than the Insanity that Hearld Volazj casts, and the trash pulls got on my nerves when the DPS couldn't wait for the mobs to come to the tank, inevitably leading to a wipe.
In short, it was my least favorite instance and I was able to just ignore it. From the best I can tell, before these past two weeks, the last time I set foot in it was in May 2009.
But now, the random dungeon finder has forced me to relearn the place and deal with all its mechanics. I've found ways to deal with the Hearld Volazj's abilities on my paladin tank, and I've gotten rather vocal about the group staying put as I pull trash packs back to them. And just as important as knowing the mechanics is leading the run as a tank. For instance, if I see a DPS move up with me, I'll stop and ask him to go back. If he doesn't listen, I'll ask again politely. Third time around with a random DPS not listening I'll just threaten to kick, and by that point the group is pretty annoyed with him anyways. The next thing you know, he's out the door with a successful vote to kick. The next DPS that comes in always seems to behave.
So what dungeons have you had to relearn dear readers? And better yet, what ones have you had to change your tactics on with the introduction of the random dungeon finder?
Take Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom. Prior to the random heroic dungeons, I probably ran this place a grand total of five times. My warrior tank got the bracers on his fist run through it, and I did it on a few more alts just to get the Northrend Dungeon Hero achievement. Other than that, when it was the heroic daily I'd just skip it and find something else to do. Nothing annoyed me more than the Insanity that Hearld Volazj casts, and the trash pulls got on my nerves when the DPS couldn't wait for the mobs to come to the tank, inevitably leading to a wipe.
In short, it was my least favorite instance and I was able to just ignore it. From the best I can tell, before these past two weeks, the last time I set foot in it was in May 2009.
But now, the random dungeon finder has forced me to relearn the place and deal with all its mechanics. I've found ways to deal with the Hearld Volazj's abilities on my paladin tank, and I've gotten rather vocal about the group staying put as I pull trash packs back to them. And just as important as knowing the mechanics is leading the run as a tank. For instance, if I see a DPS move up with me, I'll stop and ask him to go back. If he doesn't listen, I'll ask again politely. Third time around with a random DPS not listening I'll just threaten to kick, and by that point the group is pretty annoyed with him anyways. The next thing you know, he's out the door with a successful vote to kick. The next DPS that comes in always seems to behave.
So what dungeons have you had to relearn dear readers? And better yet, what ones have you had to change your tactics on with the introduction of the random dungeon finder?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Kroof Dec 21st 2009 4:19PM
For me the OK trash is terrible. Specifically the trash all around the intersection of the three bosses. I always do the bug boss, he is not problem to kill.
But when it takes 10- 15 minutes to kill two bosses and I have a chance to die and lose out on 15g on a repair bill. I prefer to just do a fast run. It really is easy to get into another random dungeon and get the boss badges there with two bonus at the end.
I tend to see it as how fast I can get the two bonus badges and 13 gold as opposed to how many I get from the dungeon itself.
Ozzard Dec 21st 2009 8:14AM
Unfortunately, I've had to change my tactics on all of them. I used to tank heroics and knew the tactics as a tank; since the new LFG tool came out, I've grouped with far too many DPS who want to go through instances faster than I can tank them - as stated in a previous comment, I'm no longer young and I need a few seconds to sort my head out between pulls. Apparently, this makes me too slow. So, I'm now DPSing on alts, or healing on my main. LFG has burned me out as a tank.
Overall, this is arguably a loss. At least on our battlegroup (EU-Misery), tanks are by far the scarcest resource in LFG. So the healers and DPS will now have to queue that little bit longer before a non-burned-out tank comes along.
I'll now be counting the seconds before this post gets voted down by all the folks who run the heroics in 10 minutes flat :-).
pnwhite Dec 21st 2009 8:17AM
this is the reason i no longer tank
Tyrnas Dec 21st 2009 8:23AM
Tanking's one of those things best done only if you enjoy it. It's been a full year since thunder clap moved from 4 targets and next to no threat to the uber stomp of doom it now is, and I'm still in love with the concept of aoe tanking and charging from one pull to the next with no cc.
People are running these heroics for the loot, there's no doubt about that. For many, there's no joy in getting from point A to B, looting that last boss, saying 'thanks' and dropping group. And that's a shame.
Tank, face melt, or heal, you should enjoy what you do in this game. That is why we're playing it, isn't it?
Rob Dec 21st 2009 8:41AM
This. And do what you enjoy, its your $15. I had a horrid experience in a PUG as dps, which would never of happened if I was playing my healers or my tanks. I sucked it up instead of leaving, because I wanted the badges and the 15 min queue sucks (vs the instant queue on the tank).
There is definately something to this game's culture that we've all created, that not all are created equal. DPS players are routinely shit upon because there are so many dps players out there, whereas even idiotic jerk-faced tanks get away with it, just because we need them. It's time to remember the commandments again. There are only two.
1) Love no other God before me. (WoW speak - dont be obsessed over loot, pixels, gear, gold, etc)
2) Do unto others as you would have them do to you. (Be kind to others, they (most likely) didn't do anything to not deserve it).
Kaiser Dec 21st 2009 8:43AM
This is why my Paladin now only cues up as DPS, even though it takes double the time to find a group.
The last straw was a Hunter in OK misdirecting 2 groups of mobs onto me whilst I was still buffing and drinking. We wiped. He then proceeded to misdirect the same groups again whilst I was resurrecting the healer...
I'm hoping Blizz implements some sort of cross-realm "Noob" list similar to your Friends/Ignore list, so when you list a player, you can no longer be grouped with them.
Sicadastra Dec 21st 2009 8:45AM
I worry about the Dungeon Finder's impact on Tank and Healer levels. Obviously there were fewer to begin with, and all it takes is one or two "go faster gramps" or "stupid healer, I shouldn't have to move out of fire in T9 gear" sessions to turn them off those roles. I know a few people who have already said the same thing as Ozz and don't want to tank or heal anymore, good players too.
On the flip side, the tanks and healers who aren't very good (tanks that won't wait for mana breaks, healers that can't prioritize, etc) or are simply jerks to begin with can't be gotten rid of easily. I'm very very hesitant to vote kick a tank, even when he pulls a boss while trash is on the priest (this really happened), because of the pain in the ass of getting another. Same goes with ignore, I won't hesitate to ignore an irritating DPS, but I usually suck it up with a tank/healer rather than limit my future pool.
Maybe I'm wrong though and the opposite will happen. Maybe more people , good people, will try Tanking or Healing just to be "part of the solution". Hmm...
Noctune Dec 26th 2009 1:28PM
I can fully understand you.
I get the option when i start to play ok instant HC as a tank or wait 10min as a boomkin dps ...
needless to say there is runs that make me almost start to cry due to DPS beeing silly and some runs where everything works wonders...
I don't demand mutch i only demand of my fellow pary members
A# dont pull extra packs on me
B# im the tank that means watch your aggro! exp if your hitting a mob im not focusing on.
C# im doing it at the speed of the healers mana that means i wish to rush it also but the mana on the healer is the deeming factor.
D# i have no quarrles about Group quitting if the group is filled with stupid players. with stupid i mean players who starts to dps on mobs while i pull the mobs back (often if its not causing a wipe i let the stupid player die a few times) an example
i did a PoS a few days ago with a fellow druid boomkin in the run.
i said wait here il pull them back ... i toss a FF on the mob and starts running backwards passing the Bomkin who starts to Hurricane on the mobs needless to say by the time i got back to him all 4 other players where dead .... he did this 2 times on the group ......
not to mentioned useing his "wonderful" Starfall to pull 3 groups in one spot ...
and after a terrible wipe on the packs up to the cave gauntlet i decided it was the end for me and i Group quitted. ...
and he wasn't the only problem. the rouge was slacking on dps (lower then me) the paladin was just maginaly better dps then me (in bearform).
Ratskinmahoney Dec 21st 2009 8:57AM
If I was gearing up a tank now, I wouldn't be doing it in LFG. I'd keep as much as possible to guildies and others with whom I can screw up and it be a learning exercise, rather than a confession of a deep and immutable inadequacy that lurks within my soul.
TBF I'm not an especially thick-skinned person, but still, I have complete sympathy for anyone who's tanking HCs because that's what they should be tanking. Rude, impatient people are everything that is wrong with WoW, I don't know why the devs put them in. I'll go complain to GhostCrawler see if he can add a cd to their a**hole bubble, or maybe nerf their Aura of Self-Righteous Smugness.
Scott Dec 21st 2009 9:02AM
@Kaiser
You can right-click on the player's nameplate and place them on ignore (yes, even cross-realms). By doing so, you'll no longer be grouped with them in future pug runs.
Ozzard Dec 21st 2009 9:18AM
@Rob: I really appreciate high-DPS players who know how to watch their threat, they (you?) make life as a tank far faster. Similarly, I think they appreciate tanks who can keep aggro. The folks who have upset me are the ones who assume they can pull - and keep pulling - and I'll pick up the slack.
I *almost* agree with you entirely about the commandments. I think the second one might be reworded as "Do unto others as they would do unto you... but do it first!" I start off assuming people are generally *people*, in the game to get their own kind of enjoyment out of it. I just prefer to group with people whose notion of enjoyment is similar to mine :-).
@Kaiser: The "n00b" list is already in, luckily. You can put someone on your normal /ignore list (now expanded to 50 idio... er... characters) and you will not be put in a group with them. This works across realms, but it's not obvious how you do so. It turns out that if you scroll up your chat log to something with their name in [...] (so:
[Party] [Ozzard-Kilrogg]: Look, just ignore me!
) then you can right-click it and pick Ignore from the menu. You can't ignore someone from their portrait.
@Sicadastra: I'd love to think more people will spec to the scarcer roles, but I look back at the death knight and wonder. A DK has 3 viable tank specs... and most appear to use their dual specs for a PvE and a PvP DPS spec. After the first couple of months, at least on our server, tank numbers dropped back to their pre-Wrath numbers as the newcomers realised it was a) difficult and b) generally thankless (tankless?!)
Your comment about having to choose who to ignore is a definite problem, though.
@Ratskinmahoney: It's not often I chuckle out loud reading posts, but you win! While you're asking Dr. Street, I seem to have this rather crumpled IOU for a pony that he promised me... must have sat on it while I was in bear form.
I'd love to run heroics as a tank with my guild. There's just one small problem: we can't get a group together to run a heroic, in general, as people are all off on different schedules doing random heroics via LFG and finishing at different times.
Gabriel.Bayles Dec 21st 2009 10:07AM
I'm a slow tank as well, mostly because I'm new and don't know the dungeons yet. I've been dpsing randoms the last few weeks and learning a ton. Finally last night after running Heroic UP 8 times as dps the following week, I felt confident enough to run a guildie through tanking on normal. Best learning experience ever. The other group members were good but unexperienced and made almost every mistake possible ( falling through the stairs EVERY time) but since it was on normal we never totally wiped and everybody was having a good time and helping each other out. So even though it took us a full 45 minutes to clear it was a great learning experince for all. I got to apply all the pulling techniques I learned from other tanks while dpsing on heroic speed runs. I'm definatly going to try tanking normals again next week. gear will always become obsolete sooner or later but basic tanking mechanics will remain the same even through the next expansion so I want to take my time and really learn it until it is second nature.
Goradan Dec 21st 2009 10:01AM
It's funny, as a MT in a raiding guild, I run the heroic daily religiously, and I find that almost everyone I'd random'd with, when given the chance to run very, very fast, will eat it up.
I never stop pulling on my runs, after telling my healer to tell me stop if they need a break, and no group has ever complained about the speed. I aim at getting every instance done in under 30 mins and most are done in
Aedilhild Dec 21st 2009 10:24AM
If you want practice in grabbing and holding aggro on mobs against three DPS players who a) waited about 300 milliseconds before b) opening up with their primo AOE ability, LFGs are for you!
In all seriousness, it *is* a valuable exercise, although the skills it confers can be counterproductive the next time your disciplined guildmates opt for a kill-order.
Hendrata Dec 21st 2009 10:36AM
Usually when I'm tanking, I'm pretty vocal about the speed of the pull.
1. Don;t pull before I do. I watch healer's mana and I decide when to pull.
2. I understand you're impatient and here just "for the emblems", but there are other people in thsi group who's not as uber as you.
If one person consistently break the rules, I started to vote to kick him. If they all break the rules, then I quit. Their loss, tanks are hard to find.
Same thing when I'm healing. I usually state upfront: I don't heal retards. Those include:
1. people who stand in fire
2. people who repeatedly pull aggro from the tank
I will still rez you if you die, but your repair bill is your punishment. You don't like me? Shrug, I'm a healer, I'm in high demand.
What about the 15 minutes deserter debuff? O well, I can do a lot of things in 15 mins. I can do BG, I can complete a few dailies, I can even do a lot of stuff IRL.
BigBadGooz Dec 21st 2009 10:36AM
yeah my problem isnt tanking its the pesky dps who oly hit around 1.5k dps that cause me to scream
QQinsider Dec 21st 2009 10:54AM
This is why I don't queue as tank on my druid any more unless I'm desperate for a quick group, and I have made no effort to gear my recently dinged 80 DK for tanking. So many idiot dps out there who haven't got a clue. It's just not fun.
Some healers are just as bad too, they think they're special snowflakes. Well you're not, there are far more of you around than there are tanks atm. I laughed at the priest last night that quit a HoR hc when he saw the tank with 33k hp (unbuffed). Replaced him in 10 seconds and then cleared the instance without a single death. If you need to be carried by tanks that far outgear the instance then you suck.
Barinthos Dec 21st 2009 11:01AM
All blued comments are totally correct. I play a tank all the time, in fact I have 3 of them I play them so much. But as such, I am the cornerstone of the group and I go at my pace. I'm a very firm believer in "you yank it, you tank it".
If you go Leroy Jenkins on my ass and pull 3 mobs and expect me to fix your impatient screw up, you have another thing coming. If you die because you can't wait 5 seconds for me to make sure the mana users are good to go then get a clue...you aren't supposed to pull. I don't care if you can whip out 6000 DPS from your left butt cheek, if you're dead you can't do any DPS.
Luckily for me I've only had one impatient d-nozzle screw the fun heroic farming I was doing with a 2 other guildies. Too bad it was before the cross faction ignore, because now I have to worry about getting him in a group again.
Thundrcrackr Dec 21st 2009 11:17AM
I'm got burnt out on tanking in BC, but have been thinking about doing it again now just because of the 15 min wait times for DPS in the new random LFG tool. Tanks get in instantly.
But...some of these comments remind me of why i got burnt out tanking in the first place.
Plus, i'd have to spend 1k+g to get all the tank gear i've been collecting gemmed and enchanted, not to mention its taking up valuable space in my bags, so yeah, probably not gonna happen. Blizz needs to do something to make tanking more desireable.
Personally, i think Blizz blew a GOLDEN opportunity with the "Hero" class they introduced in BC. If you ask me, this should have been reserved for the first ever "tank only" or "heal only" classes.
Think about, when people roll alts, is the average person more likely to start a new character at level 1 or at level 55 if they have the chance? A lot of people will choose a DK simply because it will take less time, not necessarily because they specifically wanted one, so we end up with this overflow of a class that a basically the same as two already existing classes, warriors and paladins.
If Blizz had made them a heal or tank only class, it would have helped in many ways.
Which classes is there the largest shortage of? Tanks and healers.
Which classes take the longest to level and would therefore benefit the most from being able to start at level 55? Tanks and healers.
And being the first ever tank or heal only classes would make them truly "heroic". There is nothing heroic about DKs other than the fact that they start at 55.
So instead of giving people a reason to roll a much needed tank or healer, Blizz gave us a reason to roll yet another, not needed DPS class. (i know, DKs CAN tank, but i see a lot more DK DPS than i do tanks.)
Sqtsquish Dec 21st 2009 11:30AM
I remember when I was trying to gear up my pally healer in H gundrak. The tank was lousy AND a jerk- when it came to the Troll dk's fear I was feared 4 times and on the last 2 I could no longer break the effect and the tank just watched as I was feared into the next pack, I continued to try to keep myself and everyone else alive (while the tank was still noticable ignoring and avoiding me), but eventually I died. When I was running back he explained to the dps that he was showing me, the healer, who was boss. He then pulled the next group with NO healer- the dps backed up and let him die. To say the least the vote kick feature didn't have any problems going through, but it makes you think- shouldn't there be a better way then /ignore and /kick to penalize someone for being and asshat? I understand people should only be penalized so far for being a "noob" or a "scrub" but the ones that are truly spiteful and malicious should have to face more then that in my opinion.