Patch 5.4 patch notes
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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: What dungeon have you had to relearn?
by Adam Holisky 
Dec 21st 2009 at 8:00AM
The random dungeon finder is not only great for gearing up alts and getting mains the necessary badges to fill out their gear -- it's an amazing tool which forces an increase in the WoW community's collective knowledge about instances and game mechanics. And while some of these game mechanics will be a discussion for a future time (hint: tomorrow's Breakfast Topic), today let's focus on what instances you've had to "relearn," more or less.
Take Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom. Prior to the random heroic dungeons, I probably ran this place a grand total of five times. My warrior tank got the bracers on his fist run through it, and I did it on a few more alts just to get the Northrend Dungeon Hero achievement. Other than that, when it was the heroic daily I'd just skip it and find something else to do. Nothing annoyed me more than the Insanity that Hearld Volazj casts, and the trash pulls got on my nerves when the DPS couldn't wait for the mobs to come to the tank, inevitably leading to a wipe.
In short, it was my least favorite instance and I was able to just ignore it. From the best I can tell, before these past two weeks, the last time I set foot in it was in May 2009.
But now, the random dungeon finder has forced me to relearn the place and deal with all its mechanics. I've found ways to deal with the Hearld Volazj's abilities on my paladin tank, and I've gotten rather vocal about the group staying put as I pull trash packs back to them. And just as important as knowing the mechanics is leading the run as a tank. For instance, if I see a DPS move up with me, I'll stop and ask him to go back. If he doesn't listen, I'll ask again politely. Third time around with a random DPS not listening I'll just threaten to kick, and by that point the group is pretty annoyed with him anyways. The next thing you know, he's out the door with a successful vote to kick. The next DPS that comes in always seems to behave.
So what dungeons have you had to relearn dear readers? And better yet, what ones have you had to change your tactics on with the introduction of the random dungeon finder?
Take Ahn'kahet: The Old Kingdom. Prior to the random heroic dungeons, I probably ran this place a grand total of five times. My warrior tank got the bracers on his fist run through it, and I did it on a few more alts just to get the Northrend Dungeon Hero achievement. Other than that, when it was the heroic daily I'd just skip it and find something else to do. Nothing annoyed me more than the Insanity that Hearld Volazj casts, and the trash pulls got on my nerves when the DPS couldn't wait for the mobs to come to the tank, inevitably leading to a wipe.
In short, it was my least favorite instance and I was able to just ignore it. From the best I can tell, before these past two weeks, the last time I set foot in it was in May 2009.
But now, the random dungeon finder has forced me to relearn the place and deal with all its mechanics. I've found ways to deal with the Hearld Volazj's abilities on my paladin tank, and I've gotten rather vocal about the group staying put as I pull trash packs back to them. And just as important as knowing the mechanics is leading the run as a tank. For instance, if I see a DPS move up with me, I'll stop and ask him to go back. If he doesn't listen, I'll ask again politely. Third time around with a random DPS not listening I'll just threaten to kick, and by that point the group is pretty annoyed with him anyways. The next thing you know, he's out the door with a successful vote to kick. The next DPS that comes in always seems to behave.
So what dungeons have you had to relearn dear readers? And better yet, what ones have you had to change your tactics on with the introduction of the random dungeon finder?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
catharsis80 Dec 21st 2009 11:33AM
I've been tanking a lot with the new DF tool, and I love it. I like going fast, but even then, people still whine and say things like, "Let's go, Tanky!" You just have to ignore them. They know the balls in your court, and they'll go your pace. So what if they leave? DPS is replaceable incredibly fast in the new DF tool, and healers also don't take much longer either. They don't want to lose a tank because they don't feel like waiting 10 more minutes to get one.
catharsis80 Dec 21st 2009 11:35AM
All that to say, I'm not sure why people are getting burned out as a tank from the new LFG tool. The new tool is where Tanks have almost total control.
wyzim Dec 21st 2009 11:40AM
Whoever tries to pull before me, or tries to pressure me to pull faster, I just tell them I won't tank if it is not my pull. And that wipes are a lot slower way to earn emblems. Most understand.
vocenoctum Dec 21st 2009 1:34PM
I got voted down in another topic for saying it, so I'll probably get voted down again, but...
The new system means never having to worry. You hate it when the dps pulls agro?
Don't worry, the mob will fix them.
You know what, if I'm moving too freaking slow, by ALLLL means, kick me and wait for the next tank. Mine will have already gotten into another group due to me having a 5 second time to group.
I'm not going to abandon people that make accidents, but if we're in H-VH, and that one top left group spawns while I'm all the way across the dungeon... well, if the damn hunter attacks an untanked mob WITHOUT misdirecting it to me? It's his to play with, no worries.
It goes against the grain, most of us that tank started it because we liked it and felt a sense of responsibility, which leads to burning out. So don't worry! If you explain stuff and they don't want to listen, let them eat the damage.
And no, I'm not saying be a prick about things, but there's a big difference between "hey, you let me die when you didn't do this" and "hey, how come when I pulled that mob while you were drinking, you didn't taunt off me?".
Also, the flip side is a lot of newbie tanks joining the tank ranks just to get faster dungeons. Some are capable, some are idiots. But another group is 15minutes away, don't stress yourself out and waste a half hour doing it!
And next time the Skull appears on Mob A, at the same time as the Hunters Mark appears on mob B, tell the hunter to pull out his bear, because he'll have company soon.
Tanglebones Dec 21st 2009 3:56PM
As a healer, I wish more tanks would take their time in instances. There've been a couple times where i've grouped with a really well geared tank who was good at what s/he did, and we just ran through the instance almost as if the mobs weren't even there. More often, I get a tank who (i'm guessing) only started tanking since 3.3 because tanks get groups faster. They're in half dps purples, and some tanking blues. Now, this itself wouldn't be a problem, except they seem to think that they're the first kind of tank and want to rip through it, which leads to no end of frustration for me trying to keep them alive.
uncaringbear Dec 21st 2009 5:10PM
This is what I've learned after healing for random dungeons since 3.3 dropped: Any shred of fun and enjoyment that I used to have running these dungeons has been been completely wiped away. Now I just run these dungeons purely for farming emblems, with the cost of putting up with insufferable idiots.
Stormscape Dec 21st 2009 5:46PM
I like tanking. I've tanked as everything but a druid, a paladin, then a warrrior in classic, then a paladin again in BC, and when WotLk came out I rolled a DK and never looked back.
I've leveled and everything in my tank spec and gear, and jumped right into heroics when I hit 80, even though that actually meant like, I tanked one pug every other week, because that was the best I could do for groups.
With the DF now, I've ran more dungeons in the past week than I had in the past year. I finally manage to get some decent gear, and even though I got kicked out of places like Heroic Nexus because I wasn't geared for ToGC by lazy assholes who would rather sit around in the Q waiting for a ridiculously overgeared tank to carry them through a run rather than use any of their scarce braincells and actually learn the fights.
(Since I wasn't overgeared when I started (unlike you spoiled people with your clichs--I mean guilds--and friends), I had to actually know the fights to tank them successfully. Of course, that's difficult when my only option is to research them on wowwiki rather than run them with my reliable guildies (spoiled bastards). Still, now that I've run every dang dungeon at least three times, I've come to know them well enough that I can breeze through them.)
Despite those bumps, I've still manged to gear up nicely, and I don't get kicked much anymore(because, a) I'm now among the over-geared, and b) I pull before they have a chance to inspect me). (Still happens occasionally, but I don't sweat it anymore because I've successfully tanked the heroic versions of the Icecrown 5-mans now, so I know I am more than geared enough for the old heroics, and as a tank I have almost no wait for another group.) However, this hasn't changed amount of idiots.
It's astounding that even after all this time, how many people don't seem to understand how DKs work. (We have runes, people! A limited number of them!) I lay down a DnD and wait 5 seconds to pull, otherwise I'll have to wait that five seconds after Pestilence and before Howling Blast, during which time the overzelous DPS will pull every damn mob off me. However, EVERY SINGLE TIME I prep for a pull like this, someone says "gogogogo". Apparently 5 seconds is too long of a wait to avoid a chaotic pull.
I've taken the attitude that in randoms, I'm only responsible for the healer's safety. If some dumbass DPS pulls before I do, or ignores the kill order (I have F1-F4 bound as marks so I can mark without slowing down) and the X runs off after him while the skull is still at 60%, I just stand there and watch, only acting if mobs go for the healer. I remember this one time, the healer must have been of a similar school of thought. She was mana-ing up, and I was standing nearby. (This was in Old Kingdom, the place with all the elemental pet mobs) The DPS pull, and the healer and I just sit there and watch all three DPS die and the mobs run back to their spawnpoint, with me and the healer still just sitting there watching. Man that was a satisfying moment.
Or when I attempt a Line-of-Sight pull, and half the group rushes forward and starts AoEing so only one of the pack actually makes it to me, or some idiot decides Frost Nova would be a good idea, then I spend the rest of the fight running around trying to keep the casters off the healer while the DPS dies or while the healer panics and starts healing only themselves and I have to burn Army to prevent a wipe. (Death Pact is an incredibly useful skill in PuGs. It's saved me so many times.)
Or when I pull a large pack without DnD and burn Deathchill (IT > PS > Pest > DC > HB) but the DPS opens up before even one GCD and my 5k damage aoe blast only hits half the pack and again I spend the rest of the pull running around trying to keep five mobs off three different targets (usually either the healer or one of the dps is smart enough to use a threat-reducing move, but the rest just open up rather than stop attacking when a mob runs for them, and I end up having to rotate DGs and taunts.) IMO a tank should never have to taunt, if he does, it means someone screwed up. But hey, that's what its for: compensating for other player's screwups.
It just bugs me how often I get a group full of people that seem to have forgotten they have more than six abilities.
Othor_NL Dec 22nd 2009 6:26AM
My main is a Healer/Tank Paladin and I had a few runs with DPS who kept pulling trash. Its my experience that its mostly DK's, who love to use their Death Grip before the group is ready. I think it has something to do with the fact that all other classes spend level 1-80 learning their classes and what to do and what not to do, while you can faceroll a DK to 80 and still know next to nothing about the class (I'm among those btw :-) ).
If I PUG on my Rogue alt and I see a DPS pulling ahead of the Tank, I blow Tricks of the Trade and Fan of Knives like hell to help the Tank regain Aggro.
The DPS then gets 2 warnings. If he keeps doing it I'll whisper the healer to stop healing him and I target him with TotT.......
Tyrnas Dec 21st 2009 8:18AM
Honestly, I've never understood all the OK hate. One of the most satisfying things for me to do as a tank is to take a group of caster mobs determined to stay spread out, and keep them in one nice big puppy pile to aoe down. Shield bash talented for silence with Gag Order helps this a lot, but that bit of trash after the second boss behaves itself beautifully when you use the stairs to LOS. Honestly though, I don't even bother to tell the dps anymore to hold back, they tend to get the idea when I taunt one of the mobs and come high-tailing it back up the stairs in time for a charge.
Ahhh... WotLK prot warrior tanking... I'm like a damn pinball, and it's great.
Seriously though, what I've had to relearn most actually, is how to be cautious with some of these runs. I've recently got a DK up to Northrend, and despite me holding perfect aggro, or rather because of it, I'm getting absolutely clobbered. Its been an interesting initial set of runs trying to do UK and Nexus at the appropriate level without completely overgearing the place.
But really though, a level 70 DK alt that has 4 Emblems of Triumph already? Can't beat that!
Noctune Dec 26th 2009 1:28PM
I think the LFG tool is great. needless to say somtimes i wonder if its a machine playing for a chinese farmer on one of thoes slots since they play so badly.
for example did a AN last night on my shadowpriest
first 3 group mob pull
Tankadin toss shield and we start
Healer getting targeted by one mob ....
Mob run to Healer
Healer Yells for help
(i start to try and peel mob of healer but as i got 0 threat on the mob i fail)
Mob kills healer
I take over healing
Mob runs to me
I yell for help
I Fade & Shadowmeld but fails
Mob kills me
Tank survives due to beeing able to LoH ....
and kills the last mob.
Tank yells why is im not reciving any heals !!!!
>
Bronwyn Dec 21st 2009 6:31PM
Not only do I not understand the OK hate, I also totally feel you on the tanking thing below level 80. My Pally is lvl 72 now and I end up getting completely owned if I don't have a similarly practiced/geared healer in the group. It's frustrating!
Quasimofo Dec 21st 2009 8:28AM
I still won't run OK or Oculus, if they pop up I see it as a 15 minute break for food and the bathroom or just switch to a different character. Just plain horrible instances.
Rai Dec 21st 2009 8:23AM
I've started to enjoy Oculus, "if you can't beat it..." philosophy at work. Due to running it a lot, thanks to a generous (using the term loosely) random dungeon picker, I've stepped away from the amber drakes and have donned other drakes in the bid to spice it up a bit.
We got Ruby Void last night, Emerald Void to go! I personally love running the heroics with new gear, and trying for Glory of the Hero. We even got Zombiefest last night.
I'm not looking forward to receiving the proto-drake that much though, the achievements spice up the farming so I'll be sad to see them done.
Muse Dec 21st 2009 12:51PM
This is me and occulus as well. "It can't possibly be this bloody hard." followed by achievement runs with like-minded guildies until I could play the thing in my sleep.
Now all I have to do is herd all the other cats around.
Sleutel Dec 21st 2009 8:44AM
As my Mage alt has been working her way up past 70, I've had to relearn pretty much every instance--as a caster DPS. Before now, I've exclusively been in there as a tank, and a Prot War is about as polar-opposite a class and spec as you can get. A lot of boss mechanics I've forgotten, 'cause even on Heroic I can mostly faceroll through them, and other mechanics (like silences) never affected me, so while I remember them, I occasionally zone out and forget to actually respond to them. I've also had to relearn patience--I'm used to being the one out front chain-pulling, so having to wait and watch a new tank make mistake is... frustrating, when it's not kind of adorable.
Ozzard Dec 21st 2009 9:21AM
Silences get me every time - I'm used to bear-tanking heroics, so healing or caster DPS roles mean I can be caught very much by surprise.
Luckily I tend to heal as a tree, so few-second silences *usually* aren't a problem as the HoTs just keep on ticking!
Randomize Dec 21st 2009 3:18PM
That is so true, especially on fights like Ingvar where as a tank i need to stay out and keep fighting the whole time but as a dps caster i need to avoid the smashes and shouts entirely.
jorath Dec 21st 2009 8:54AM
Occulus... did it once before the dungeon finder. Had nightmares about it many nights.
I also have found myself having to learn old vanilla dungeons that I never ran before on appropriate level as I'm leveling a healer, Doing Wailing Caverns for the first time is a harrowing experience when the tank has never heard the word, Manabreak.
mmc109 Dec 21st 2009 11:44AM
I found this true as well in the vanilla WoW dungeons. Those who queue up as tanks are anything but "tanks". They see themselves on their 80s and see fit to pull everything in sight ...
3 caster dps and the healer out of mana? Time to pull!
Most players seem to forget what dps was like at levels 20, 30, 40 and so on. Don't believe me, try it out!
bdelzer Dec 21st 2009 4:54PM
oh lord. wailing caverns. i forgot how awful and ungodly long that dungeon was until i tried to jump in and heal on my new druid alt. 3 hours to complete? that is just crazy. blizzard, you have learned so much.