In defense of ignorance

One of the things that has increasingly struck me while reading peoples' accounts of the new LFG system is the frequency with which people cite getting kicked from groups due to a low gear scores, or scathing comments from other players on the extent to which they are being "carried" after damage meters are posted. Now, while I don't believe that this is an overwhelmingly common practice (most players have had positive experiences with the dungeon finder, and I'm one of them), it's still a problem. People have complained since the beginning of WoW about damage meters and the jerks who spam them, and we've all seen our fair share of the unhappiness wrought by the misuse of GearScore, but this is different. At no point in WoW's history have so many players who don't know each other from Adam been tossed into relatively intimate 5-man situations with the total freedom to be angels or asshats to each other (and, speaking of the Adam we do know, even he's given up and started to expect some bad play in his PuGs).
I am about to propose what I know is a radical departure from the standard gamer practice of reducing someone else's total worth to a number that, ideally, is lower than yours:
Don't bother.
You're happier not knowing.
Do I hear something? It sounds like a howl of protest. Before it gets any louder, I'm more than happy to admit I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who alternates between tanking and healing for 5-man groups. As a result, I have no real interest in meters and don't even use one, because there really aren't any for tanks, and spamming the healing meters in a 5-man group is the definition of pointless ("Whoo! I'm number one!").
Unless it's something that's very obviously having a negative impact on the group, or likely to have a negative impact (e.g. you're a person in greens insisting you can DPS heroic Halls of Reflection, rather than getting stuck there accidentally because the LFG system goofed -- or if you're that "Protection" paladin I ran into the other week with 500ish +defense and Mark of the War Prisoner equipped), I don't give a rat's fuzzy arse what your numbers are.
Seriously.
I don't know how much DPS you're doing. I don't care how much DPS if you're doing.
I don't know what your Gear Score is. I don't care what your Gear Score is.
And truthfully, I'd rather not know.
I'm happier doing 5-mans with people who don't raise the issue of gear once or spam damage meters or what have you. Everyone relaxes and just does the dungeon. By contrast, if someone spams the meters after the first trash pull, it takes a small miracle for the run not to devolve into a DPS pissing contest. People trying to beat each other on the meters typically abandon their raid awareness and common courtesy to do it, and as the tank or healer, I am inevitably the sucker in this arrangement.
From a tank or healer's perspective, this is what has a more significant impact on whether the group is a good one:
- Whether you're interrupting, CCing, stunning, or otherwise impeding the efforts of a mob that is charging up a giant heal or a Level 5 Death To Tank attack. You can find these buttons in PvP, right? Is there any reason why you can't seem to find them in a 5-man? To me, there's not a big difference between a high DPS group that won't stop AoEing to interrupt a mob's heals and a lower DPS group that does.
- Whether you're being polite. Rude people are not fun to be around.
- Whether (if you're a hybrid healing class) you're dropping a heal if necessary when the healer is out of commission. This doesn't happen a lot in Northrend 5-mans, but the enhance shammy who rocked a clutch Chain Heal while my healer was frozen in Halls of Reflection? That guy is on my friends' list.
- If you're constantly dying to stupid crap. It is the healer's responsibility to heal you through unavoidable damage. It is not the healer's responsibility to heal you through your refusal to avoid damage.
EDIT: After reading The Godfather's missive on the new Dungeon Finder, I also feel the need to yell at my fellow tanks over the following:
- Grow a pair and stay in the friggin' dungeon: Unless you get zoned into a place that you're 100% positive you don't have the gear to tank, you signed up to be sent there just like everybody else did. You know perfectly well that you're consigning people to another wait for a tank if you bolt just because you don't like Oculus (or wherever). Sorry, but that's an inexcusably jerk move even if you think the group is undergeared. People can and will surprise you, and if you're looking to satisfy that ego of yours, nothing beats running an undergeared group through a dungeon smoothly with surprised and grateful people who are all happy they got you through the Dungeon Finder.
- The world is not going to fall at your feet just because you specced Prot (or Feral, or...): That we have an advantage while queuing for the Dungeon Finder is due mostly to the ratio of roles in today's raids and not because we are The Few, The Proud, The Tanks. We are not unique and special snowflakes. You will be replaced if you leave in a snit when the group doesn't go to your liking, and it should worry you that the group will suddenly work perfectly once the second guy zones in.
- Don't queue as a tank unless you are actually a tank: Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 15)
Cor Dec 23rd 2009 10:03AM
The one exception imo is when 3 out of 5 people have never been to Occulus. Yes the best people will put on their teacher hat and spend the next 30-60 minutes educating the other players. Don't get me wrong, I've "taught" a number of groups through the new IC 5 mans, but with Occulus I draw the line.
Players have a good understanding how to play their class so when they are in a new instance only the instance is new. With Occulus the instance is new, riding dragons is new and the whole 3D aspect of the zone come together to make for a hard learning curve.
If the numbers are reversed and 3 or more out of 5 have been to Occulus before I have no problem running it and giving pointers on specific encounters. Evening wiping a half dozen times is ok.
But I'm only human when I say the guy that asks "Where are u guys?" everytime we mount up and move is not fun for me at all.
Dag Dec 23rd 2009 10:17AM
But what about gear restrictive instances such as Halls of Reflection?
I have no qualms about leaving a H.HoR run if after the first avoidable wipe on trash, it's obvious that the DPS and Heals are both undergeared and/or underskilled for the place.
15 minutes of wiping on trash only to have to leave the instance anyway requires more patience than I have.
ZakuraX Dec 23rd 2009 10:34AM
I link dps meters when someone asks for it. (A dps that wants to know how well he is doing.)
If someone with better gear comments my gear on the start of the run.
If someone does extremly low dps (300-500 dps) and comments on either the tank, healer or another dps about him doing his job.
The rest of the time I use it to se how well I am doing myself, interupts done by party member and so on.
Barinthos Dec 23rd 2009 10:39AM
I'm an avid supporter of "If shit dies and we don't, we're golden" There is NO reason to bitch about the speed of the dungeon so long as it's getting done without any wipes.
Recount champs? Shut it, no one cares.
Gear Score monkeys? Grats your digi-dong is huge. Now shut it, no one cares.
There is no heroic that requires a 5000+ gearscore or 6000DPS to get through it. 3.3 didn't upscale the difficulty of the dungeons or change boss mechanics(save for Oculus) or any such absurd thing that would make you think those stats are required.
It irks me that some people force the rest of the group to proceed at a pace that's uncomfortable to them or unfamiliar. Going fast is not the same as going fast recklessly. I'd rather spend an extra 10 minutes in the dungeon with NO 60g repair bills than wiping 5 times a 60g repair bill and bitching group members.
Again, if shit dies and you don't? You're golden.
Kira Dec 23rd 2009 10:52AM
@ Barinthos
THIS, THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
Kira Dec 23rd 2009 10:55AM
Also, don't tell the tank they suck at their job when you died because you wouldn't listen to them when they told you to stack in the damn corner...
Pyromelter Dec 23rd 2009 12:08PM
Gearscore is an okay barometer if used in context. A tank with 3500 gearscore may be the most epic pve'er in the world... but he's not going to be able to take the pounding of 4-5 trash mobs at a time, nor would he be able to hold aggro on the 4th wave of trash packs in HoR. A tank with 3500 gearscore (as long as he's got enough +defense) can, with good skill, run through any of the heroics not associated with icecrown. For the most part tho, I don't see gearscore being used in 5mans, it's mostly for raids, and it's mostly for weeding out people who are undergeared. There are other objective measures that are more important for dps (your dps) tanks (def cap, hp), and healers (mitigation, hps, mana regen). But as always, assuming a minimal level of gear is met, it's about the player not the gear. Really the only encounter where gear is a big issue is in HoR, because the 4th wave in the run from the lich king requires that the 3 dps'ers spam AoE, the tank gets smashed hard, the healers' mana will be taxed, although it appears to me that it's more of a DPS race than anything.
Regarding CC/interrupts, this is one of the neat things I like about the new 5mans. Recount/dps meters matter on the run from the lich king, but don't hardly matter at all in the first encounter with the waves of trash. HoR forced me to set up clique with my pitbull unitframes, and to set a quick button on my mouse for counterspell. In FoS and PoS, both have encounters where you have to stop your damage, so it's more about smart attacks, and bursting your damage in places... again the player, not the gear/class.
Regarding pacing/wiping, the biggest times where I've encountered wipes was either when the healer disconnected, or when the tank who was geared but not significantly overgeared pulled a few too many trash mobs and the damage just overwhelmed him. Something I've noticed is that outside of Ley-Guardian Eregos, it's trash mobs that tend to wipe groups, not the bosses.
Barinthos has the right idea tho... if everything dies, and you get your blues/purples/shards, it really doesn't matter. However, if someone compliments my dps, I will link recount. Some of us non-hybrid classes are pretty damn competitive, although it's usually about maximizing our own performance, basically I use dungeon bosses as a target dummy. There is something satisfying about blowing your cooldowns and hitting 9k dps while taking Loken down in 40 seconds. :)
Finally, Oculus: it's just terrible. In EoE, you can at least practice with those dragons by doing Wyrmrest Temple dailies. Really, no one should ever complain if someone drops from an Oculus group.
Molly Dec 23rd 2009 9:14AM
As a rogue who's been doing lots of pugging lately, thanks for this article. Rogues have soooo many 'ohs***' buttons to use effectively in battle to help themselves and others and if you're not using them to help your group because of your DPS you're a jerk. Not to mention the game gets alot less fun IMO just smashing the same ol' dps rotation without any thought or consideration to the strategy of the battles.
Sahi Dec 23rd 2009 9:15AM
`Sir, yo have hit the nail right on the head with the new social aspect thats appearing with the new LFG system. As a fellow healer/Tank myself wht really matters is the end result of the run not how much raw damage u can pull off, all the preatty "pvp"buttons do help and make a dungeon even funner to run and ultimatly in the end isnt that wht we are here for... to play a game have fun and meet other players and just have a some plain old fun ;p
Boom Dec 23rd 2009 9:15AM
Spot on. I ran a totally random on my (relatively) undergeared alt (good for everything but H HoR according to the /LFD tool) and blew through it with only a single death due to me missing a vanish when I pulled aggro off the tank (yes, even us low GS people can pull from high GS tanks - my alt is a very bursty rogue). I ran one later on with four other guildies and ended up wiping 3 times just getting to the first boss in H Gundrak (for you GS people out there - their average GS was around 4700 with mine running 3800). Sometimes, I'd just rather go with the totally random because everything seems to run smoother. We're all there for the same purpose - getting badges.
vocenoctum Dec 23rd 2009 10:01AM
My prot warrior is around 4200ish gs. I got tossed into PoS. I've done it before, so no biggie, but this time... everything was just bad. 1 player from my server, kept queit and did his job, the others just bitched non-stop. "Your tank is barely keeping agro" being the particularly funny one, since I had been doing fine, really. (Had problems with the 2 pulls going up into the tunnel, most folks should know what I'm talking about, but the coment was before that.)
Total assholes, I ended up dropping group on last boss after second wipe. I'd already ignored most of the group, and I just couldn't take it anymore. They all had gearscores of 4500-5500.
Next Q, I was pissed. I got get Drak with the friendliest bunch of folks I've met in Randoms yet. Joking, laughing ensues, we get to work and everything goes fine, even when I mispull on the one zombie/construct room, pro team, great healer. When we're on King Dred, one of the DK's comments about how grateful he is that we're not complaining about carrying him... so I look. He's doing 1600ish dps in mostly blues & greens. GS is like 3k at best, though I don't recall for sure. It was an alt of a guy that knew what he was doing and truthfully the atmosphere was so fun, I didn't even notice until he commented. He was happy that he got actual drops from the dungeon, and it was fun.
So yeah, the experience is more about the people than the gear. They were different power level instances and stuff, and the healer in Drak was better than the healer in PoS, but it's the attitudes that matter for me.
Bradwyr Dec 23rd 2009 10:46AM
I know exactly what you mean. I belong to the largest guild in the world, some of you may know it, and I have never had so many pointless wipes as I have since joining them. Wiping on normal instances, heroics, raids, when I can pug the exact same things flawlessly. I was pretty surprised to say the least after a few random groups with these guys. They are so freaking big they are basically their own trade chat.
xoxotl Dec 23rd 2009 9:15AM
Overall, my experiences with the Dungeon Finder have been overwhelmingly positive. Sure, I've gotten some bad groups and wiped repeatedly, but, hey, them the chances you take, right? It happens, and everybody's usually an adult about it. It usually ends with the tank or healer (whoever is under-performing) apologizing, and the rest of the group saying "Don't worry about it, we all started somewhere," with everybody parting ways on good terms.
Usually.
Every now and then, go, you get the more... intense players. I queued up for a random heroic and immediately the tank starts to criticize everybody on their gear, berating them for being in a heroic. I point out that, hey, it's a game. "A game you fail at, scrub," and then he quits party. We get a new tank and we totally rocked the heroic, earning several achievements.
vanye111 Dec 23rd 2009 9:40AM
Uhm. wasn't he also in the heroic? *boggle*
Boom Dec 23rd 2009 10:15AM
"I queued up for a random heroic and immediately the tank starts to criticize everybody on their gear, berating them for being in a heroic."
Isn't this where we always told people to go to get gear before raiding? If under-geared people shouldn't do heroics, where in the h$@l are they supposed to go?
HunterFromTheStart Dec 23rd 2009 12:59PM
@boom
While I agree with what you are saying, let me just give you a heads up on how it can be accomplished. When I started, I took the quests for different non heroic dungeons, and got different pieces of equipment that were actually quite nice. Also, I bought armor and weapon for my hunter from the Kalu'ak Quartermaster, the Weapon which I am still using. Lastly, there are player crafted equipment which is also leagues above that.
djfatsostupid#hotmail.com Dec 23rd 2009 9:15AM
This is totally right. I don't look at dps meters during the majority of heroics (if monsters are blowing up in record time sometimes I look just for a laugh). Gearscore for heroics is ridiculous. For Halls of Reflection I can understand why people want a tank geared to a certain level (the trash in that place hits harder than the bosses in regular mode ToC and you only have one healer) but for heroics that launched with Wrath, we *all* used to do those in blues and greens, and there is no reason someone with blues and greens should be looked down upon now. If you think you can't win heroic Nexus because your tank only has 24k unbuffed health or because your dps only does 1.5k then the problem isn't your teammates' gearscores, the problem is your confidence.
Stormscape Dec 23rd 2009 7:16PM
"but for heroics that launched with Wrath, we *all* used to do those in blues and greens, and there is no reason someone with blues and greens should be looked down upon now. "
This cannot be stressed enough.
25k health on a tank is not "low" for heroics. It's not even low for Naxxramas.
Yet more times than I can count, I've heard in almost every run someone bitch to me or other tanks that--for example, my 30k health--is too low. Many times kicking that tank even when they are performing admirably.
IMO the "bads" aren't the ones who jump into heroics in blues and greens. The "bads" are the ones who are so secure in their incompetence that they simply refuse to do any content that they or any member of their group doesn't SIGNIFICANTLY out-gear.
And yes, someone in an average ilvl of 200 in epics and blues does, in fact, significantly out-gear the Wrath-classic heroics.
Yttarion Dec 23rd 2009 9:16AM
Slightly ranty, but I couldnt possibly agree more with everything that has been said.
In particular the "Grow A Pair" part appeals to me. Today, I got AK as a random dungeon. Twice. Both times three of the group members left, citing that they hated the place. Since when is AK hard? Its slightly annoying, yes, but so it standing in Dal for 15 mins until you can rejoin Dungeon Finder, I would think?
Also, I turn off DPS meters in 5-mans -- they dont mean anything. Your Aff Lock might be the best in the world, but if things die before his DoTs tick, then the DPS meter will say that he sucks. This is a particularly sore point for me because my main DPSer (Boomkin) has a long wind-up time too before I actually start to DPS effectively.
Also, you can top the DPS meters by AoEing everything in sight, but thats not necessaraly helpful if the enemy mob healing its friends lives longer than it has to.
Mole Dec 23rd 2009 9:42AM
This. The only time i left a group was in FoS. I am an affliction lock, and I was making and placing a soulstone on the healer when the tank pulled the first two mobs. The ones who cast reflect on themselves fairly often. By the time I got the SS up, and started DoTing the mobs when they had reflect down, they were pretty much down themselves.
The tank starts ripping into me that i "better pick up my DPS" and starts listing how much I actually did.
My DoTs didn't even have a chance to tick.
I responded with disbelief, and then left group. Maybe I should have stayed and made him eat his words, but the frustration i felt, and the knowledge that he was going to be like this the whole time just won out.
I'd rather have the 15 minute debuff than deal with a**hattery.