In defense of ignorance

One of the things that has increasingly struck me while reading peoples' accounts of the new LFG system is the frequency with which people cite getting kicked from groups due to a low gear scores, or scathing comments from other players on the extent to which they are being "carried" after damage meters are posted. Now, while I don't believe that this is an overwhelmingly common practice (most players have had positive experiences with the dungeon finder, and I'm one of them), it's still a problem. People have complained since the beginning of WoW about damage meters and the jerks who spam them, and we've all seen our fair share of the unhappiness wrought by the misuse of GearScore, but this is different. At no point in WoW's history have so many players who don't know each other from Adam been tossed into relatively intimate 5-man situations with the total freedom to be angels or asshats to each other (and, speaking of the Adam we do know, even he's given up and started to expect some bad play in his PuGs).
I am about to propose what I know is a radical departure from the standard gamer practice of reducing someone else's total worth to a number that, ideally, is lower than yours:
Don't bother.
You're happier not knowing.
Do I hear something? It sounds like a howl of protest. Before it gets any louder, I'm more than happy to admit I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who alternates between tanking and healing for 5-man groups. As a result, I have no real interest in meters and don't even use one, because there really aren't any for tanks, and spamming the healing meters in a 5-man group is the definition of pointless ("Whoo! I'm number one!").
Unless it's something that's very obviously having a negative impact on the group, or likely to have a negative impact (e.g. you're a person in greens insisting you can DPS heroic Halls of Reflection, rather than getting stuck there accidentally because the LFG system goofed -- or if you're that "Protection" paladin I ran into the other week with 500ish +defense and Mark of the War Prisoner equipped), I don't give a rat's fuzzy arse what your numbers are.
Seriously.
I don't know how much DPS you're doing. I don't care how much DPS if you're doing.
I don't know what your Gear Score is. I don't care what your Gear Score is.
And truthfully, I'd rather not know.
I'm happier doing 5-mans with people who don't raise the issue of gear once or spam damage meters or what have you. Everyone relaxes and just does the dungeon. By contrast, if someone spams the meters after the first trash pull, it takes a small miracle for the run not to devolve into a DPS pissing contest. People trying to beat each other on the meters typically abandon their raid awareness and common courtesy to do it, and as the tank or healer, I am inevitably the sucker in this arrangement.
From a tank or healer's perspective, this is what has a more significant impact on whether the group is a good one:
- Whether you're interrupting, CCing, stunning, or otherwise impeding the efforts of a mob that is charging up a giant heal or a Level 5 Death To Tank attack. You can find these buttons in PvP, right? Is there any reason why you can't seem to find them in a 5-man? To me, there's not a big difference between a high DPS group that won't stop AoEing to interrupt a mob's heals and a lower DPS group that does.
- Whether you're being polite. Rude people are not fun to be around.
- Whether (if you're a hybrid healing class) you're dropping a heal if necessary when the healer is out of commission. This doesn't happen a lot in Northrend 5-mans, but the enhance shammy who rocked a clutch Chain Heal while my healer was frozen in Halls of Reflection? That guy is on my friends' list.
- If you're constantly dying to stupid crap. It is the healer's responsibility to heal you through unavoidable damage. It is not the healer's responsibility to heal you through your refusal to avoid damage.
EDIT: After reading The Godfather's missive on the new Dungeon Finder, I also feel the need to yell at my fellow tanks over the following:
- Grow a pair and stay in the friggin' dungeon: Unless you get zoned into a place that you're 100% positive you don't have the gear to tank, you signed up to be sent there just like everybody else did. You know perfectly well that you're consigning people to another wait for a tank if you bolt just because you don't like Oculus (or wherever). Sorry, but that's an inexcusably jerk move even if you think the group is undergeared. People can and will surprise you, and if you're looking to satisfy that ego of yours, nothing beats running an undergeared group through a dungeon smoothly with surprised and grateful people who are all happy they got you through the Dungeon Finder.
- The world is not going to fall at your feet just because you specced Prot (or Feral, or...): That we have an advantage while queuing for the Dungeon Finder is due mostly to the ratio of roles in today's raids and not because we are The Few, The Proud, The Tanks. We are not unique and special snowflakes. You will be replaced if you leave in a snit when the group doesn't go to your liking, and it should worry you that the group will suddenly work perfectly once the second guy zones in.
- Don't queue as a tank unless you are actually a tank: Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 15)
Yukeake Dec 23rd 2009 10:15AM
@Mole I feel your pain, man. *Hate* those spell-reflect mobs, particularly on the first pull. DPS-meter-watchers will immediately call out the casters for being "low" after that pull, not understanding that we're simply neutered on those mobs, and have to spend half the fight twiddling our thumbs until the shield wears off. With decent physical DPS along, the mobs are usually dead (or so close it doesn't matter) before my Mage gets more than one cast off.
Hell, in 5-mans in general, with a good group, my Mage doesn't get a chance to get "wound up", unless we're AoEing. 2s-ish AB x4 + 2s-ish MBAM is around 10s per rotation, with a ~2s "lead time" that non-casters don't have. Single trash mobs don't last that long. And forget DPS if I need to decurse or interrupt (which noone else ever seems to do...)
Let's see some mobs go physical-immune or better yet physical-reflect and see how the non-casters like it. Make 'em tauntable, and fully affected by threat, but reflect physical damage to anyone but the tank. Make it the first pull in a 5-man, and see how they like it.
3Fingeredchef Dec 23rd 2009 10:30AM
I completely agree with the "get a pair".
I had our healer drop from a Blood Furnace run last night right before the last boss. We had more than a couple of deaths, but I figured we were there, we should finish.
Unfortunately having a healer is key to finishing every instance and there aren't a lot of people looking for outland heroics on my battlegroup.
zappo Dec 23rd 2009 10:32AM
"Let's see some mobs go physical-immune or better yet physical-reflect and see how the non-casters like it. Make 'em tauntable, and fully affected by threat,"
Yeah, it doesn't work like that... Besides which there are plenty of fights that are conductive towards being ranged, it's just that the melee dps is more often than not too stupid to move like they're supposed to and are healed through it.
Yukeake Dec 23rd 2009 11:09AM
@zappo - Agreed, it doesn't work that way. Just saying if they *did* add a pull or two like that, it'd prove the point.
The particular mobs we're talking about are essentially designed such that casters (not ranged in general - Hunters aren't affected) *won't* be doing their best DPS. Mages and 'Locks get hit hardest here - at least Shadow-specced Priests, Boomkin Druids, and Ele Shaman can throw out a heal or two while they wait.
Being the first pull of the instance, it's often what meter-readers use to gauge the "viability" of the DPS. I'm not saying that's right (it's stupid, in fact), but that's the reality of the situation. There seem to be an awful *lot* of meter-readers out there.
If the shield were spell-stealable by Mages, and devourable by a Felhunter, it wouldn't be nearly so large an issue, because we could deal with it and get on with doing our jobs, rather than standing around looking like dead-weight jerks until the shield is down or the mob is dead, because to do otherwise would get ourselves killed.
And the silliest thing of all is this is trash in a 5-man. Is there any 5-man trash that goes physical-immune/reflect, causing a rogue, hunter, etc... to need to sit on their hands for most of the time a mob is "in play", while casters get to go nuts? I'm not aware of any.
Darky Dec 24th 2009 10:49AM
Same im an unholy death knight dps with about 8 procs, i need at least 5 of these up for me to do decent dps.
but i keep my recount up and set it to only show myself so i can improve how i play, i know it sounds stupid but i like to find out small ways to improve my dps when it matters so i try out things that may work in a place it doesn't matter. however i dont spam the recount charts to everyone unless they ask me too. (sometimes people in greens want to know how they did)
royalxlion Dec 23rd 2009 9:16AM
'Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left.'
Yah, well there have been misgeared people all over the place - difference is you don't see them until you are grouped with them. They seem normal, mean well, etc... But I know some rogues who used to wear spell power leather and use spell power daggers.
Today's translation includes those who do not wish to wait with the rest of us in queue. Their rationale is that they wear plate, and they have a shield, and there is a taunt on their bar - so "no problem". Now I haven't personally run into this situation, but I understand the mentality.
My advice to those who are not specifically geared/talented for tanking (and does not wish to wait in queue): Find someone who is and group with them. You will also get an instant group (like a tank) and will be able to accumulate enough badges in a short while to gear yourself up properly. While in the group with the tank, watch what they do and inspect their gear. It is a little bit of work, but worth every ounce of it.
Tronden Dec 23rd 2009 9:16AM
'Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left.'
Yah, well there have been misgeared people all over the place - difference is you don't see them until you are grouped with them. They seem normal, mean well, etc... But I know some rogues who used to wear spell power leather and use spell power daggers.
Today's translation includes those who do not wish to wait with the rest of us in queue. Their rationale is that they wear plate, and they have a shield, and there is a taunt on their bar - so "no problem". Now I haven't personally run into this situation, but I understand the mentality.
My advice to those who are not specifically geared/talented for tanking (and does not wish to wait in queue): Find someone who is and group with them. You will also get an instant group (like a tank) and will be able to accumulate enough badges in a short while to gear yourself up properly. While in the group with the tank, watch what they do and inspect their gear. It is a little bit of work, but worth every ounce of it.
Hal Dec 23rd 2009 9:35AM
It's not always a single-person mentality. The only time I've dropped from a group using the LFG tool so far was an instance of this. The "tank" for H Nexus was sporting decent enough HP, but it was mostly from very high end DPS gear; otherwise, he was wearing both heirloom plate pieces and only two pieces of defense gear. Tempered Saronite, no less!.
When I tried to comment that he needs defense gear to survive tanking, it was the healer who said, "no its fine gogo." I'm assuming they were friends or guildies. I didn't stick around to see how that would turn out.
Sinthar Dec 23rd 2009 11:21AM
As a tank, and dps, im quite prepared to wait in a queue. I certainly dont class myself as a 'hard mean tank'. I always start with hello, end with - thank for the run guys/gals, and ask if everyones happy before i begin. I check both the healers AND the dps's mana, if its under 1/2 ill check before continuing to pull (unless its VH where you get no choice). I dont run recount in any heroic - or in fact any raid nowadays. My mages dps is more than sufficicent to be classed as non scrub, and my pallys a tank/healer so no need (and it saves memory footprint). I have got a couple of macros - to state loot rules in advance - so noone has any excuse to need by 'accident'. I have no idea where people find the gearscores from, and talk to 3 people and you seem to get 3 different scores (i assume from different gear reconing sites), and so i dont even look at them. I judge people as i find them, during the instance. I have NEVER dropped out of a group - even when they were bloody annoying.
As a result - i have had 3 offers to tank for different guilds on different servers - and made plenty of friends. Well worth a few more minutes and a little consideration
Caliea Dec 23rd 2009 9:17AM
Yay! for common courtesy and for playing a game to play it - not to compare numbers and always having a perfect run.
Yay! for focusing on the FUN of the run, and not on people's uber-leet gear.
I have yet to reach 80, although it's becoming tantalizing close, but I could care less how awesome someone's gear is, or how they rank on the meters. If they're fun to play with, if they're polite, if they try to offer helpful suggestions to anyone who may be struggling, then they're on my nice list. If they're constantly posting meters, if they're bragging about how great they are, if they're being mean to people who are trying to learn and have a good time, then they're on the naughty list, and I'm hoping Santa leaves them coal this year.
Sometimes it seems the majority of WoW articles on assorted blogs and forums focus solely on how a player ranks compared to others, instead of how much fun it can be to run an instance and beat the odds. It's great to see one that focuses on the results of the group synergy, not the awesomeness of the stats the players have.
Sinthar Dec 23rd 2009 11:21AM
Im tempted to say "lit coal on their beds", but seeing its christmas ill just wish all a happy time. Hope those ranters DONT blow their fuses and everyone gets something nice.
jokerdurham Dec 23rd 2009 9:20AM
I have to say that normally gear or damage is not a reason to kick someone, if it is low they may be under geared or just learning more how to dps in the spec they are in. However I recently healed a reg forge of souls/pit/HoR run, and during those runs there was an 80 warrior who was doing 300 dps, now we wiped twice in HoR because the dps could not down things fast enough and we had to kick the warrior, and one other member of the group, in his same realm left with him. As I said calling people out on their damage is not something that normally should be done, but if you are an 80 doing 300 dps and the group is not able to finish with you in the group sometimes it needs to happen.
marco Dec 23rd 2009 12:29PM
Fully agree with you. I know it's not 80, but twice now I've run with different hunters doing 250 dps (level 75), both in VH. The first time I was on my healer and I didn't really care, but the mage was hounding him about his damage. When the hunter started making "your mom" jokes I joined in on the action, while jumping and spamming instant heals. Eventually the hunter left. The second time around I was on my rogue and noticed the hunter doing nothing but auto/multi shot and volley. I suggested he use steady/explosive shot and mark his target, while also letting him and the group know I was not all too familiar with hunters. His reaction? "Dude it's my pet bro, I need a better one," followed a little later by the typical "don't tell me how to play my class." I told him I was just trying to help.
I hate people sometimes, I want to reach out and strangle them.
Darthregis Dec 23rd 2009 9:22AM
My biggest grief is how people forget that you could do all the initial Heroics with 1500+ dps. When people start going, "wtf, break 2k, noob!" it's a little ridiculous.
Oh, and if you see marks (skull, X, etc.) over the mobs heads, don't AoE everything down. Kill them in order. Said tank likes to keep aggro but may not be able to keep up with your tier 56 dps. If you're not quite sure what the kill order is - just ask.
Lorini Dec 23rd 2009 10:06AM
I don't know the dungeons that well, so as a DPS, it's awesome when someone marks.
mikwoz69 Dec 23rd 2009 12:18PM
Best response yet. It cracks me up when the uber tank complains he is doing 2.5k dps and the hunter wearing blues is doing 1.7k dps. Um excuse me the hunter is not "an undergeared noob" he is right on track for heroic instances, you sir, on the other hand, are an over geared jerk.
For me it's simple, not dying = good run. 1 or 2 wipes on harder instances if the lower geared peeps are trying and want to learn, no problem we were all there at one point or another. It's about fun people not stats.
Barinthos Dec 23rd 2009 11:17AM
Totally agree with the marking. I use marks as a force of habit and have had a couple people bitch about it. "Don't need marks...." Umm...it takes .02 seconds for me to put them up and it's not only to show you what order I'm going to go in but in case other people prefer single target DPS instead of the LOLoE mentality.
Also, you yank it, you tank it.
Docp Dec 23rd 2009 9:23AM
I use meters because I want to improve my game and make sure that I'm not being carried. I think it's just common courtesy to provide adequate DPS for the encounter, regardless of if there are others who go beyond that level who could allow me to slack. The only good reason for letting someone do subpar DPS in a instance is because they do not know how to achieve the results they need, in this case I'm more than happy to go through with them some basic tips and point them to the right websites, POLITELY, but all the other reasons people give are just pathetic.
I won't be turning my meters off because I don't think we should let people get away with this. Already we're seeing people say things like "I stopped trying to help people because I just want to get through the instance, I no longer bother telling hunters to turn taunt of their pet, or DK not to death grip, or tanks to get DEF capped, I just work around it" but the problem is this is making a lot of people worse players. Letting them get away with this will only make the player base worse in the long run.
I see nothing wrong with telling people who are underperforming (and I mean really underperforming, by the instances standard and not by some 'leet' standard, i.e. under 900DPS, no defense gear, etc.) how to improve their game, providing it is done politely, but I do think making other people compensate is just rude.
antieuclid Dec 23rd 2009 10:13AM
Same here, I use meters because I want to be sure that I'm pulling my weight. I had never run an instance before 3.3, and it took me a while to get into the swing of things. I don't care all that much about other people's DPS, but I want to make sure that I'm at least in the middle of the pack.
As far as telling people when they're doing something wrong, I think it's fine as long as you're polite about it. The first dozen or so times I ran an instance, I let everyone know at the start that I was a newbie and that they should tell me if I did anything wrong. I'm doing the same thing now that I'm venturing into healing with my shaman. People saying "dood, lern 2 play!" just ruin it for everyone else, but if people don't nudge underperforming players towards helpful resources, they'll never learn any better.
Sinthar Dec 23rd 2009 11:22AM
Not quite sure why you have been downranked tbh. Using meters to spot problems is a standard. Its what you do when you spot one that matters imho. If i did have them, and did spot a problem, i would as the group to take 2 mins - /w the guy to find out what the problem was (and i have done this before). Ive then taken a couple of hours taking the guy or gal round a few places (after the heroic), and in some cases crafted gear for them (in 3 cases this was their 1st epic). By the end, the person usually have increased their dps/healing. Knows a couple of people who excel in that class and will give them advice in gearing/talents/glyphs, and in one case i even got them into a like minded guild. Obviously i dont charge for these - if the persons struggling already they are not lightly to be rich, but my reward is the thanks.
My issue it now i cant really do that cross server, as i like to help when i have the time.