In defense of ignorance

One of the things that has increasingly struck me while reading peoples' accounts of the new LFG system is the frequency with which people cite getting kicked from groups due to a low gear scores, or scathing comments from other players on the extent to which they are being "carried" after damage meters are posted. Now, while I don't believe that this is an overwhelmingly common practice (most players have had positive experiences with the dungeon finder, and I'm one of them), it's still a problem. People have complained since the beginning of WoW about damage meters and the jerks who spam them, and we've all seen our fair share of the unhappiness wrought by the misuse of GearScore, but this is different. At no point in WoW's history have so many players who don't know each other from Adam been tossed into relatively intimate 5-man situations with the total freedom to be angels or asshats to each other (and, speaking of the Adam we do know, even he's given up and started to expect some bad play in his PuGs).
I am about to propose what I know is a radical departure from the standard gamer practice of reducing someone else's total worth to a number that, ideally, is lower than yours:
Don't bother.
You're happier not knowing.
Do I hear something? It sounds like a howl of protest. Before it gets any louder, I'm more than happy to admit I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who alternates between tanking and healing for 5-man groups. As a result, I have no real interest in meters and don't even use one, because there really aren't any for tanks, and spamming the healing meters in a 5-man group is the definition of pointless ("Whoo! I'm number one!").
Unless it's something that's very obviously having a negative impact on the group, or likely to have a negative impact (e.g. you're a person in greens insisting you can DPS heroic Halls of Reflection, rather than getting stuck there accidentally because the LFG system goofed -- or if you're that "Protection" paladin I ran into the other week with 500ish +defense and Mark of the War Prisoner equipped), I don't give a rat's fuzzy arse what your numbers are.
Seriously.
I don't know how much DPS you're doing. I don't care how much DPS if you're doing.
I don't know what your Gear Score is. I don't care what your Gear Score is.
And truthfully, I'd rather not know.
I'm happier doing 5-mans with people who don't raise the issue of gear once or spam damage meters or what have you. Everyone relaxes and just does the dungeon. By contrast, if someone spams the meters after the first trash pull, it takes a small miracle for the run not to devolve into a DPS pissing contest. People trying to beat each other on the meters typically abandon their raid awareness and common courtesy to do it, and as the tank or healer, I am inevitably the sucker in this arrangement.
From a tank or healer's perspective, this is what has a more significant impact on whether the group is a good one:
- Whether you're interrupting, CCing, stunning, or otherwise impeding the efforts of a mob that is charging up a giant heal or a Level 5 Death To Tank attack. You can find these buttons in PvP, right? Is there any reason why you can't seem to find them in a 5-man? To me, there's not a big difference between a high DPS group that won't stop AoEing to interrupt a mob's heals and a lower DPS group that does.
- Whether you're being polite. Rude people are not fun to be around.
- Whether (if you're a hybrid healing class) you're dropping a heal if necessary when the healer is out of commission. This doesn't happen a lot in Northrend 5-mans, but the enhance shammy who rocked a clutch Chain Heal while my healer was frozen in Halls of Reflection? That guy is on my friends' list.
- If you're constantly dying to stupid crap. It is the healer's responsibility to heal you through unavoidable damage. It is not the healer's responsibility to heal you through your refusal to avoid damage.
EDIT: After reading The Godfather's missive on the new Dungeon Finder, I also feel the need to yell at my fellow tanks over the following:
- Grow a pair and stay in the friggin' dungeon: Unless you get zoned into a place that you're 100% positive you don't have the gear to tank, you signed up to be sent there just like everybody else did. You know perfectly well that you're consigning people to another wait for a tank if you bolt just because you don't like Oculus (or wherever). Sorry, but that's an inexcusably jerk move even if you think the group is undergeared. People can and will surprise you, and if you're looking to satisfy that ego of yours, nothing beats running an undergeared group through a dungeon smoothly with surprised and grateful people who are all happy they got you through the Dungeon Finder.
- The world is not going to fall at your feet just because you specced Prot (or Feral, or...): That we have an advantage while queuing for the Dungeon Finder is due mostly to the ratio of roles in today's raids and not because we are The Few, The Proud, The Tanks. We are not unique and special snowflakes. You will be replaced if you leave in a snit when the group doesn't go to your liking, and it should worry you that the group will suddenly work perfectly once the second guy zones in.
- Don't queue as a tank unless you are actually a tank: Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 15)
paul Dec 23rd 2009 9:28AM
I understand what Allison is trying to say, and i try my best to be patient with people less well geared than me. My average ilevel is 245 being the lowest, and 264 being the highest, so i'm pretty well geared, so i know as a tank, i might push past some dps.
However, i was in a pug last night, (i'm a druid feral tank) where i did 44.5% of the groups total damage over the course of the fight, and 30% of the healing. As a feral tank.
There are limits. When an 80 warrior in full epic gear can only do 846dps, which my 75 warrior in quest greens and blues can exceed, thats willful ignorance.
I hate elitism, and want people that play casually to see all the content i see, but i also expect people to at least know a single basic rotation.
percinho Dec 23rd 2009 10:05AM
I believe they balance out groups so if you have someone who is massively over-geared then it's likely to throw in someone with a relatively low gear score. This helps the other players gear up and on average increases the gear-level of the player base, thus helping you out.
Most importantly, if you're not wiping, and hence you're getting the Emblems that you're after, does it matter if someone else is not doing that well?
tatsumasa Dec 23rd 2009 12:35PM
@perci i've been skimming the comments looking for this subject. i have gearscore and i have recount. but i don't announce either ever. i have a 5k gs on my main (healer) and 4.8 on my tank. the only person i really look at in groups is the counterpart. if the healer and tank have good gear you can run through and it doesn't matter the dps. so what if you're pulling people through. you're getting your badges and they're getting some gear upgrades. if someone asks their dps i tell them a roundabout figure, i don't spam the whole meter. if you want to know if those t9 shoulders you just got pushed your dps up that's swell, but it doesn't matter how you're doing in relation to the rest of the group. these are random pug heroics, not raids.
Abhoth Dec 23rd 2009 9:23AM
The best one I've run into so far was the DK tank with 71 in blood and a mix of holy pally and dps greens on. We tried to tell him that there was no way he would be living through anything as his HP in frost presence was about 4k less than mine as an arms warrior.
Shnitzki Dec 23rd 2009 9:24AM
I've been running my Elemental shaman through randoms over the past weeks and multiple times I've been pulling between 6-7k on trash, and 3-4k on bosses.
What doesn't get me is the amount of people that I've seen who complain that I kill stuff to fast for them to keep up in terms of dps.
There has been several situations where pure dps classes like Hunters say "Listen mate I'm wondering if you could slow it down, I don't want to get kicked because of low dps"
I'm party leader.
I'm always party leader.
Why in the hell would I kick someone because of "low dps" on anything.
Ever.
Its just a heroic, people really need to man up and let everybody enjoy the game.
Now if you're doing something dumb like taunting a boss while you are dps, then I "might" kick you.
Sinthar Dec 23rd 2009 11:22AM
Probably cos anyone can start a 'vote to kick' in a Random PUG, so he may not have been afraid that you would kick him, but the others could start the process.
Belareyn Dec 23rd 2009 9:24AM
I've noticed that when I'm with some guildies doing randoms and they're new 80s, we get put in groups with similar gear and there is no griping about gearscore or DPS. However, as I am quickly gearing my druid, when I solo pug I tend to find the jerks who worry about DPS or gear and spend most of the instance complaining. That's just super annoying.
Like the priest healer who almost had a cow in heroic ToC when our tank 'only' had 31K unbuffed health. She kept complaining that that was way too low for ToC and we were surely gonna die... then when we finished with no wipes she insisted it was due to her mad healing skills. My tank has about 32K health unbuffed now, but even before I had little to no problems staying alive in H ToC.
Some people make mountains out of mole hills and take things in this game way too seriously >.>
Rhaycen Dec 23rd 2009 9:47AM
I was in a group where the tank was a brand new 80, in order to reach 535 defense he had to put defense gems into just about everything and enchant for defense all over the place.
This tank had a grand total of 22k health, and as a raid geared healer I wasn't worried for a moment. He was being extremely careful and pulling so slow the dps was threatening to leave group.
I had to tell him many times, "You will not die, I will not let you die."
Eventually he started pulling faster and got more confidence in his abilities as a tank, we all walked out of there without a repair-bill and extra badges. And hopefully a tank that will get himself geared better sooner rather then later.
Hoggersbud Dec 23rd 2009 11:12AM
31k? That's fine. 22k? That's iffy on TOC. Some other instances it might be ok, but I wouldn't do TOC with that, at least not on heroic, and probably not on regular.
darian Dec 23rd 2009 11:33AM
I'd do ToC with that. While it's awe-inspiring to see that 55k health tank for the first time, they're extremely boring to heal. Most of the time I just throw Earth Shield up on them, /follow a caster and go make a sandwich.
A 22k health tank would at least be interesting.
jealouspirate Dec 23rd 2009 9:25AM
Thank you!!
I'm a healer, and like you, I don't give a rat's a** how much dps people are doing, as long as we're not wiping.
Just last night I did my random heroic and after a few pulls someone initiated a vote to kick a dps, without saying a word. When I asked why someone voted to kick him, the response was:
Him: His dps sucks
Me: What is it?
Him: 2.6k
Me: Are you kidding me? That's fine for heroics, and we're not having any problems
Him: We're doing well because I have 5k dps, if you don't kick him I'm leaving
So, I left first. It made me so angry.
Angus Dec 23rd 2009 9:26AM
"Don't queue as a tank unless you are actually a tank: Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left."
I'd like to add DW DK tanks to this list. Specifically ones with 38 Hit rating, no extra expertise and a 25K health pool. Thanks for missing with a quarter of your moves, I really appreciate walking behind all the mobs, dropping my totems, picking out skull in the group, lazily lining up behind the mob, and hitting stormstrike once, pulling the mob off you like you hadn't been spending the last 9 seconds beating on the mob and dying. Again.
Seriously, just because they added the rune doesn't mean it is a good idea to use it.
When the unholy DPS DK is tanking more often because you can't hold aggro, have crud for mitigation and drop like a stone, maybe you should rethink this entire DW tank thing.
Get some decent hit and expertise, maybe some actual tank gear and then try again.
cptgrudge Dec 23rd 2009 12:12PM
"I'd like to add DW DK tanks to this list. Specifically ones with 38 Hit rating, no extra expertise and a 25K health pool."
I'd say you have more of a bad gear problem than a DW DK problem. You actually need less hit to dual wield on a DK if you're properly talented. Special attacks (Blood Strike, Plague Strike, Frost strike, and Obliterate) all still require 8% when you DW. Expertise requirements aren't all that different from 2H either.
Don't hate on DW DKs just because some people that play them are bad; no class is safe from that.
Angus Dec 23rd 2009 6:51PM
I made special note to say to get decent hit, expertise and tank gear. "Specifically ones with..." I am not hating on DW DKs, I am hating on ones that think because they can they should and don't bother to get the gear for it.
I have seen 1 good DW DK tank. I couldn't pull off of him even after I tried. I know they aren't all bad.
tapdov Dec 23rd 2009 9:26AM
Actually, this article is probably more or less pointless, since I find (by asking in PuGs "who reads WoW.com?) that all "those" people basically don't read any wow sites.
After all, if your so leet, why would you read any guide/info/etc. on your class?
Come to think of it, that seems like a good way to see how a run will go. Just ask who reads wow sites. :)
symphonyman Dec 23rd 2009 7:15PM
That's true. I believe the ones that cause problems are usually very immature - they don't have jobs where the read wow.com. When we are reading this, they are either in school or at home playing with their sausage and checking their DPS.
meringue Dec 23rd 2009 9:32AM
I'm a very well geared bear, and I usually top the dps meters in random heroics. But you know what? We're out of almost every dungeon within 5 min of the random dungeon debuff. It's all good. :)
elboricua1974 Dec 23rd 2009 9:32AM
As a tank I actually do look at recount meters. It allows me to judge how much I can pull. I tend to chain pull but if dps is not high, I won't do two or three pulls in one especially if my healer is also under geared.
As for courtesy, I always say hello and thank my group when the instance is over, but sadly that is the extent of the conversation. No one talks, it's all business start to finish. Partly my fault I am sure for the pace I set.
RebeldreamEveran Dec 23rd 2009 9:32AM
Long time wowinsider reader, first time poster. As someone who runs heroics a lot as a tank I just must say that it's not undergeared people that get me mad, it's people that do not know a thing about what they have that do. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in full or close to full 232 gear and they are pulling 1.5 to 2k in a heroic. I mean, if they spend that time getting badges, they least they can do is read their class forums or elitest jerks and learn how to properly dps. For some reason, without exception so far, their responses all the way around are along the lines of " I don't need help, I dps just fine." just is aggravating.
Gridpoet Dec 23rd 2009 9:35AM
i've really only gotten into one bad group, and it wasn't "bad" in that everyone was a douche... it was just that all the other members were true newbs (not in the derogatory sense)...
the cool thing was after the 3rd wipe i was able to explain what each of them should be doing and how to succeed... we were all polite and after that the run went flawlessly... if the veterans would just show a little patience and the newbs a little more willingness to learn without getting mouthy, everything would run a lot more smoothly
^_^