In defense of ignorance

One of the things that has increasingly struck me while reading peoples' accounts of the new LFG system is the frequency with which people cite getting kicked from groups due to a low gear scores, or scathing comments from other players on the extent to which they are being "carried" after damage meters are posted. Now, while I don't believe that this is an overwhelmingly common practice (most players have had positive experiences with the dungeon finder, and I'm one of them), it's still a problem. People have complained since the beginning of WoW about damage meters and the jerks who spam them, and we've all seen our fair share of the unhappiness wrought by the misuse of GearScore, but this is different. At no point in WoW's history have so many players who don't know each other from Adam been tossed into relatively intimate 5-man situations with the total freedom to be angels or asshats to each other (and, speaking of the Adam we do know, even he's given up and started to expect some bad play in his PuGs).
I am about to propose what I know is a radical departure from the standard gamer practice of reducing someone else's total worth to a number that, ideally, is lower than yours:
Don't bother.
You're happier not knowing.
Do I hear something? It sounds like a howl of protest. Before it gets any louder, I'm more than happy to admit I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who alternates between tanking and healing for 5-man groups. As a result, I have no real interest in meters and don't even use one, because there really aren't any for tanks, and spamming the healing meters in a 5-man group is the definition of pointless ("Whoo! I'm number one!").
Unless it's something that's very obviously having a negative impact on the group, or likely to have a negative impact (e.g. you're a person in greens insisting you can DPS heroic Halls of Reflection, rather than getting stuck there accidentally because the LFG system goofed -- or if you're that "Protection" paladin I ran into the other week with 500ish +defense and Mark of the War Prisoner equipped), I don't give a rat's fuzzy arse what your numbers are.
Seriously.
I don't know how much DPS you're doing. I don't care how much DPS if you're doing.
I don't know what your Gear Score is. I don't care what your Gear Score is.
And truthfully, I'd rather not know.
I'm happier doing 5-mans with people who don't raise the issue of gear once or spam damage meters or what have you. Everyone relaxes and just does the dungeon. By contrast, if someone spams the meters after the first trash pull, it takes a small miracle for the run not to devolve into a DPS pissing contest. People trying to beat each other on the meters typically abandon their raid awareness and common courtesy to do it, and as the tank or healer, I am inevitably the sucker in this arrangement.
From a tank or healer's perspective, this is what has a more significant impact on whether the group is a good one:
- Whether you're interrupting, CCing, stunning, or otherwise impeding the efforts of a mob that is charging up a giant heal or a Level 5 Death To Tank attack. You can find these buttons in PvP, right? Is there any reason why you can't seem to find them in a 5-man? To me, there's not a big difference between a high DPS group that won't stop AoEing to interrupt a mob's heals and a lower DPS group that does.
- Whether you're being polite. Rude people are not fun to be around.
- Whether (if you're a hybrid healing class) you're dropping a heal if necessary when the healer is out of commission. This doesn't happen a lot in Northrend 5-mans, but the enhance shammy who rocked a clutch Chain Heal while my healer was frozen in Halls of Reflection? That guy is on my friends' list.
- If you're constantly dying to stupid crap. It is the healer's responsibility to heal you through unavoidable damage. It is not the healer's responsibility to heal you through your refusal to avoid damage.
EDIT: After reading The Godfather's missive on the new Dungeon Finder, I also feel the need to yell at my fellow tanks over the following:
- Grow a pair and stay in the friggin' dungeon: Unless you get zoned into a place that you're 100% positive you don't have the gear to tank, you signed up to be sent there just like everybody else did. You know perfectly well that you're consigning people to another wait for a tank if you bolt just because you don't like Oculus (or wherever). Sorry, but that's an inexcusably jerk move even if you think the group is undergeared. People can and will surprise you, and if you're looking to satisfy that ego of yours, nothing beats running an undergeared group through a dungeon smoothly with surprised and grateful people who are all happy they got you through the Dungeon Finder.
- The world is not going to fall at your feet just because you specced Prot (or Feral, or...): That we have an advantage while queuing for the Dungeon Finder is due mostly to the ratio of roles in today's raids and not because we are The Few, The Proud, The Tanks. We are not unique and special snowflakes. You will be replaced if you leave in a snit when the group doesn't go to your liking, and it should worry you that the group will suddenly work perfectly once the second guy zones in.
- Don't queue as a tank unless you are actually a tank: Please, no more "protadins" with Mark of the War Prisoner, ungemmed DPS gear, and "F&$k no I don't" responses to "I think you need +535 defense to tank heroics," or Allison is going to start revoking Tank Cards right and left.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 15)
miker Dec 23rd 2009 10:33AM
Thank you!
As a fairly new player, I sometimes catch some crap from elitist jack-wads about how I should know every detail about every single boss fight in every instance before I start using the LFD tool. Sorry, but, I work for a living, and i just got the game recently. I am psyched I had time to get my character to level 76!
I like to actually be surprised buy the game sometimes, and not know what is around every corner before I turn it. I had SO much fun figuring out Keristrasza and then having our group finally take her down; there was a sense of accomplishment afterward. The first group I tried to run Nexus with was cheering for me and calling out "Shammy heals FTW!" for the entire run...until we got to Keri. Then I was a loser...a scrub... a noob...and how could I even THINK of running a dungeon if I hadn't watched a youtube video first???
Seemed kind of silly to me, especially since with was a normal mode dungeon with some first timers in the group...seems like people would expect some players to be fairly new in that situation, but I guess not.
traptinacivicsi Dec 23rd 2009 9:37AM
I agree.
I'd also like to point out that competing with friends/guildies for highest gearscore, when done sportingly, makes the game very enjoyable as well.
I'm a pally tank and my best friend happens to be a warrior tank. Trying to out gear each other every few days is a fun way to keep each other pushing to be better, just be sure to help each other run stuff so one doesn't fall too far behind ;)
Sirdare Dec 23rd 2009 9:38AM
im a tankadin and ive been in alot of awesome groups with great people we go in get the job done and leave with thank yous great runs and such all i ask is next time any of you see sirdare in oculus lets just run it and get r done and not run away ty reckoning battlegroup rocks
Josin Dec 23rd 2009 9:40AM
Re: Grow a Pair
Right on. Mostly. I've gotten thrown into Oculus as a tank. I usually give party chat an "Ugh." but then I man up and tank it. And groups are appreciative. One group I'd gotten into there said they'd been through 5 tanks before I got there. Shameful.
Oculus is NOT a fun instance. It's not hard anymore, which is an improvement, but there's nothing fun in running Oculus either. It's a blight on the game..
Now, as to my earlier "Mostly." – Heroic Halls of Reflection.
By FAR one of the biggest Heroic Instance challenges I've faced as a tank since Shattered Halls in BC. (Great for a Paladin, awful for Warriors.) I'm willing to give it a few attempts, but if the DPS can't coordinate and focus on a target, we're going to wipe. A lot. And on the chance you get a good random group who knows their stuff and can manage it, you're going to hit the DPS wall I disaffectionately refer to as The Arthaschase™.
I've been in groups that have gotten to the last wall of that event nearly a dozen times without being able to finish it off, and it was strictly a matter of gear not being sufficient to provide the damage to get past it. And there's not much you can do about that, if its what you're confronted with.
I'd love to see Blizzard's internal gear rating system for the Dungeon Finder ramp up its filtration for that place a bit more.
Even Blizz uses a modified variation of GearScore to find your group mates, so it's not THAT obscene to me when people at least consider that number when getting into a group. Now, when they start kicking people based on the score alone, for content those people are more than qualified for, that's another matter entirely. I've seen groups try to vote people out of Heroic Nexus who were "only" wearing Ulduar gear. Fortunately, I've seen groups vote out the people who called those votes as well.
Columhcille Dec 23rd 2009 12:04PM
RE: "By FAR one of the biggest Heroic Instance challenges I've faced as a tank since Shattered Halls in BC. (Great for a Paladin, awful for Warriors.) I'm willing to give it a few attempts, but if the DPS can't coordinate and focus on a target, we're going to wipe. A lot"
I have run into this problem a lot. The first "bad" groups I've gotten in to were on the same day. Both were in HoR and both had decently geared DPS and tanks and heals all three, but the players either didn't understand how to LOS the adds so that they wouldn't have a chance to stick on a healer or they didn't know how to single-target on a set order of marks and prioritize their kills.. thus, the tank would have agro and then each dps targetted their own mob and they all pulled threat and ended up taking massive damage.
Now, i'm not the best geared healer and have full t9 welfare set but my off set items can range anywhere beteen ilvl 200 and 226.. I'm Disc Priest and even throwing bubbles up every time the debuff went away to cast it again on the person, I was doing 3500 HPS ... as Disc! with Bubbles up! That's flipping insane raid damage being taken! Even blew CDs for that.. Divine Hymn and trinkets and potions; everything! lol I guess only so much one healer can do. /shrug.
Even after explaining and rexplaining the fight we wiped at least ten times before people started leaving. GS means nothing if you can't listen to simple instructions and do your job.
Theron Dec 23rd 2009 10:56AM
Halls of Reflection is the main reason I take my healer into the LFD with trepidation. He's my main, I've got the gear for it, but that's a set of fights everyone has to have their act together. There's not really a mod for checking that though - you'll figure that out on the first wave on those steps.
Picviewer Dec 24th 2009 1:52AM
I think people have a problem with HoR for exactly how you stated it, you haven't had a challenge like it since Shattered Halls in BC. That immediately came to my mind when I saw the new 3, they made them somewhat thinking dungeon runs again instead of straight forward facerolls. On my priest I actually had to remember oh yeah I have a shackle undead that'll help here, and when I'm on my tank I'm glad if a rogue is in the group to sap something. Past year it's been easy without thinking about crowd controlling at points just blast the content, now they are adding it back in somewhat.
JB Dec 23rd 2009 9:41AM
Great article. I can't stand folks who shove DPS meters or gear score in your face. There are people who are so worried about their DPS they forget about helping their team mates when in a bind.
I haven't had a bad experience yet with LFG - haven't used it that often though. Had a few tanks/healers/dps not showing up. We had an interesting case where the person didn't know how to zone in and we were trying to help them get in - when some-one wanted to kick them . That angered me as it was the person's first time for using the tool.
I am running dungeons I have never seen - which is great. I haven't found a talkative group yet - it's all about killing the bosses in silence - lol.
Has any-one had the dreaded no more instances can be launched error as well while using the tool? I have had it a few times and I thought this was supposed to have "fixed" it?
I must say I haven't taken my bear tank [is my main spec] out on a run yet, as the guild I was in had 3 level 80 tanks as it is. So I played more kitty after I hit 80. So...I'm a bit concerned about running dungeons as a tank as I'm super rusty. And reading LFG comments I'm really nervous of doing so...many are so elitist...
Gimmlette Dec 23rd 2009 9:41AM
AMEN! This might be your best column to date.
The trouble is, those who need to hear you say these words 1) Don't read WOW.com and 2) Think it doesn't pertain to them. I think you should have added, "You're not the world's gift to tanking, healing or dps-ing. You're in the LFG Finder because you either want badges or you want something to do. It's your choice to be here. If you think everyone you group with is below you, don't use the Finder. Ask in General or Trade for a group that matches your 'requirements' and let the rest of us have fun meeting new people and sharing new adventures. Or badger your guild mates into going with you. They won't? Then maybe you should start asking yourself if YOU are the problem and not them."
We've started a thread in our guild forum just to enjoy the stories of those with bad Pug experiences. Maybe, once this tool becomes old hat and the days of sticking your name in LFG and going to do the laundry while you wait are stuff of legend, we will look back on these days and chuckle.
Meanwhile, I counsel my guild members to never abandon a group even if it is a dungeon they hate (Personally, I really like Oculus so I don't get the loathing.) or the have to wade through the ego to do their job. "Keep your mouth shut. Write down the toon's name so you can add him or her to your /ignore list and be the last to leave. Come back and post your story to the forum where we all can laugh."
bob Dec 23rd 2009 9:43AM
You don't have to be a dick about it but you don't have to put up with it either. I'm all for being nice, I don't run recount or gearscore, but there are limits.
If your DK tank is in un-gemmed blues, asks which presence he should have up and dosen't want Thorns... just link wowwiki and drop the group. The 15 minute de-buff is going to be much more pleasant than trying to pull this group through.
You can't heal stupid.
vanye111 Dec 23rd 2009 9:43AM
My understanding is that the only limitations on it were gear score preventing you from getting into TOC or the Frozen Halls instances unless you could handle it. Other than that, it was supposed to be completely random.
Yrmes Dec 23rd 2009 9:45AM
I may not have recount open during 5mans, but it's still there when we wipe, and yes, it's very likely in my group (tank, healer, dps) that it's the other two dps at fault.
And H-HoR is still a problem. Yesterday I got a lovely group that apparently WALKED IN, joined the LFG, got my group, we wiped twice before the first boss. The first time because the Lock got locked out because he went to repair while his friend started the event before we zoned in. We all rez, we wait for the lock to come back, we wipe again on the 3rd wave. Because the two pug dps are running out into the middle of the room to grab shinies between waves. Finally, we get that done, we get to the escape scene. Close call at second to last wall, final wall I'm blowing all my cooldowns, the pug dps are just aoe-ing. According to the recounts from my group, they aren't even doing good aoe. Two abominations left before the wall goes down, there's no way to take 15% of both their health down in the 10 seconds we have before the Lich King reaches us.
It's one thing to need upgrades from a place, but you should not be in quest greens and blues in the highest ranking heroic in the game, when Blizzard has already put in plenty of heroics to get you out of those in preparation for this.
And you know what the kicker is? Because they're a premade, and we're a premade, there's no vote to kick. My group takes the /afk approach, to see if they'll just leave after that wipe. No, they want to go again because they're only at 75% durability. You know, because that's not a huge chunk of gold to repair. I on the other hand try explaining their dps is too low, their gear doesn't support them being in here, we can't really finish this as is. They don't even respond to me. They respond to my tank getting into an argument about them being carried. Hell, the healer didn't want to heal them and just run it again.
Don't complain to me that gearscores and dps meters are unfair, what's unfair is that people would rather get into fights about that shit than listen to the truth. Sometimes you just can't do the dungeon, and asking the majority of the group to quit the instance when they're already saved is selfish. After 40 minutes of waiting for someone to leave, we finally got two dps that could pull the numbers needed for the fights, finished it quickly, even got a rogue an upgrade.
There is no reason to have a hunter in quest greens and blues with no enchants and no gems as your dps for anything other than low level heroics. There is no reason to have her friend the lock in pvp gear and quest blues with bad gems and bad enchants. A good group can make up for one bad dps, it can't make up for two. I only want to have pugs where the members are capable of running the instance, is that so much to ask? If dps meters and gearscores are going to be the way to know this, it's a necessary evil.
Ignorance is not a virtue when your repair bill is climbing higher and higher because of bad players.
Cor Dec 23rd 2009 10:03AM
H-HoR is the exception to a lot of these situations. That instance requires everyone have good gear. I think it says a lot that your group even got past the first bosses. Most groups I'm in with average gearscores over 4500 can't do it because people don't work together and will leave after the 2nd wipe.
Yrmes Dec 23rd 2009 10:02AM
Oh, and Locks.. Listen, I know you lifetap for mana. I understand, it's a good way to get mana back quickly. You're stacking stam because of it.
I gave you strudel. You know what that is? That's free mana. Why do you insist on lifetapping before a wave in HoR? The rest of us are eating strudel. You're not making it quicker, because the healer has to heal you, then eat. That's more time for him to be at full mana than if you had just ate some FREE strudel. My healer wants my group to kick locks on principle because of this.
There's a reason I drop tables at the beginning of the run. The same reason you're getting an int buff from me. I'm trying to make this easier for all of us. Please do the same.
Yrmes Dec 23rd 2009 10:05AM
TonyMotorola
Exactly, but the problem is, they walked in. If someone opens the gate to HoR for you, you can run inside. That gate doesn't open unless you've completed the other instances first, but apparently you can run inside during the time it's open and Blizzard's gear check can't do a thing about it because you're already in the instance when you enter Lfg.
Yrmes Dec 23rd 2009 10:10AM
Cor
To be honest, we probably should have left long before Arthas. We may not have wiped very much, but that doesn't mean we didn't have some deaths.
I think we lasted as long as we did because the healer and me are both Belves, know how to arcane torrent casters, know how to use our CC abilities, and as a FFB mage I have built in CC for my dps.
I don't believe I saw the hunter drop a single trap.
Yrmes Dec 23rd 2009 10:13AM
TonyMotorola
Well, something must have gone wrong. According to the healer, every downtime between waves, the Lock was dropping himself to something like 15% health. I mean, I'm all for getting your buffs going, but is that the way it's supposed to work? Blow tons of your health so the healer has to heal you in order to know you're not going to die during the first Priest aoe of the pull?
Unain Dec 23rd 2009 10:17AM
I had a group in HoR last time on my priest (disc) and had a hard time healing our druid tank. He wasnt badly geared, but had a hard time picking them all up.
After 2 wipes I thought, lets do some CC on those adds and stay in the middle of the room.
Thank god we had a shadowpriest with us as well which made it a lot easier :). Two shackles helps a lot, me on the hunter/mage and the other priest on the rogue.
Finally some use out of my shackle button again ;).
Royberto Dec 23rd 2009 12:33PM
@ Tony Motorolla
It's good to have insight, as without the knowledge that the life tap between pulls serves a purpose, it is easy to construe it as just annoying and rude.
It's not a big deal at all the heal 5-10%, provided that the lock understands that if I'm outside the 5 second rule trying to get back to full mana that I'm not going to heal them until after the fight starts and I have my totems down and heals rolling on the tank.
Thyen Dec 23rd 2009 9:49AM
I actually feel like an idiot for something that happened to me in HoR of all places. I got queued, and I'm actually kind of excited. I've got my oober new axe, my good ole shield. And I start tanking. We wipe.
And I notice... I'm still wearing my ret gear. I have really good tank gear... but it would help IF I WOULD PUT IT ON!!!
My other bad experience with LFG was not my fault. I'm a chatty sort in 5-mans, making little quips between pulls. I was a newly minted 15 rogue, and I wanted to do something I've never done before... Ragefire Chasm. Just so I could say I did it. And the group didn't know anything about the place. I remember it from my horde days.
The pulls were bad, but ehh, I figured that oh well, new people. That's okay. But before we got to the boss, Taragaman... I mentioned "Okay, when we fight this guy, for the love of the Light... don't put your backs to the lava."
All I get is "ur annoyin" from another person, then got vote-kicked. I HOPE they wiped repeatedly