Drama Mamas: Mismatched ambitions in the Dungeon Finder

Last week's discussion on how (and how not) to offer advice to underperforming Dungeon Finder groupmates garnered hundreds of comments and reader e-mails. Whether you choose to kick underperformers or to press on, it's how you handle the situation that makes the group (and you) worth being around. We aren't alone in feeling that softening the barrage of criticism that seems to be going around is the real matter at hand.
"I was so pleased to read your last column about PUG drama with the new Dungeon Finder," wrote in reader Necrodancer of EU Terokkar, "but I was really disappointed to see that most of the commenters were discussing what DPS and gear requirements are required for this or that Heroic, rather than how we behave towards casual or less experienced players in PUGs. DPS and gear requirements may well be up for debate, but what isn't up for debate is that we should be treating each other in a friendly and respectful manner.
"The reason I'm writing is this: please, please stick with this issue for just a little longer. A worrying attitude is spreading through the community that it's perfectly ok to be rude, abusive and cruel to players whose only crime is playing WoW less frequently than the hardcore set. A good hardcore player should recognise that not everyone is going to play the game the same way they do. They can't expect every PUG to be full of power-players decked out in Tier Bazillion gear and pumping out 5K DPS in every fight. To them I say have patience, be nice and above all, remember that it's all for fun."
And so we come to this week's question from a Dungeon Finder fan who's feeling a bit "Abused and Confused."
Dear Drama Mamas: Last night, I was running H CoS on my mage, gearing her for frost PvE (I know it's not optimal, but it is viable -- and my favorite). The group I was in consisted of a hunter, death knight, shaman (healer) and paladin (tank). The pally tank was fully geared in at least ToGC gear (if not ICC), but the other DPS were obviously just graduating to Heroics. The tank was upset that my DPS was only slightly above his and that the hunter and DK were well below him. He proceeded to insult and belittle the DPS for being below him and started swearing, because he thought we would not be able to get the extra boss (and therefore the extra badge). I told him to stop being so rude, that the DPS were here to gear up and he should lay off; he just told me I was a scrub ...
I can understand his frustration. He feels like he is missing out on a chance to get an extra badge. However, I don't think it is necessary to verbally abuse other players just because of their place on the meters. If we had been in ToC or one of the new five-man heroics, I think he would have a point. But CoS is a lower-level heroic than those instances, and the DPS were par for the course.
... I don't think it is fair to mock someone because their toon isn't as geared as you would like it to be. Isn't that why they're here? I guess my question is, who was right? I get that the general rule is for the DPS to be above the tank. But how is that fair when your tank is pulling near 3K DPS? How can he ask that the DPS be competitive if he isn't willing to run low-level heroics with them? Do they (we) deserve to be made fun of because our alts are not as geared as their mains, because we are here trying to gear them? Signed, Abused and Confused
Drama Mama Lisa: Let's scrub up for a little PUG surgery -- but it's not the bad players who deserve the knife. Rather, it's the social scrubs we need to excise. These are the players who believe it's their place in the world to "school the n00bs," turning every group into an ugly display of selfish, egocentric lecturing. These are the players who play not with their groupmates but despite them.Let's be clear: You will meet players who are utterly unqualified for some of the more difficult instances in the game. It's perfectly appropriate to suggest that those players to try again another time: "I've run this instance quite a bit, and it's tough. I'm not sure we'll be able to succeed with your current output. I think we're going to have to ask you to step out until you're a little stronger." You can always vote to kick if they refuse to leave, or you can drop the group yourself -- after all, the wait for the debuff to wear off will undoubtedly be shorter than the time spent beating your head against the wall in a doomed group.
I hope it goes without saying that the tank from Abused and Confused's letter was a social scrub of the highest order. Making a spectacle of yourself by pitching a fit when others aren't serving your personal ambitions is ... embarrassing, to say the least. Still, let's consider a few observations about situations in which your groupmates' abilities seem especially mismatched.
- If you feel a group is too weak to complete specific achievements or tasks that are important to you, drop out of the group. Again, what's a better use of your time: waiting out a 15-minute debuff (while doing something else productive), or wasting time in a group that's not on the same page? Your best bet would be to rely on guildmates and friends or to assemble your own group via the LookingForGroup channel.
- Remember when we were all tearing up the Wrath Heroics with 1k-1.5k DPS? Yeah, people really and truly did that. Your group can, too. No matter what your own performance looks like today, it's completely unnecessary to boot a player simply for producing that range of output in those instances.
- Think a level 80 player ought to be on top of his or her game? Think again. Times have changed. WoW's design slingshots players up through the levels in no time flat. Yes, players should get their sea legs in the regular level 80 instances first -- but that doesn't mean they'll be polished players by the time they hit Heroics. Adjust expectations accordingly.
- The mark of a good player isn't the sum of the numbers flashing by on Recount or GearScore -- it's how well he can contribute to the group. If your group is struggling because you can't tone down your pulls for a slower healer or because you keep yanking aggro away from your tank, then you're clearly failing as an effective player. A failure to adjust is exactly what it sounds like: failure.
- Should you be forced to carry groupmates who are truly unsuited for the task? Absolutely not. Ask them politely to leave the group (see above), vote to kick them or drop the group yourself.
- Are you sure you're really annoyed at having to "carry" a weaker groupmate -- or are you actually worried about having to perform if you don't have four overgeared groupmates capable of carrying you?
What's the difference between the player everyone wants to group with again and again and That Guy everyone puts on /ignore? It's really not terribly complicated. Stay chill, be friendly and have fun out there.

I think that together with last week's Drama Mamas and Lisa's reply here, as well as Allison's feedback in her defense of ignorance, we have wrestled this topic to the ground and are waiting for the count. So here's a summary:
- To the complainer: We really think you would be happier if you stopped running Recount and worrying about whether you are carrying people -- but I guess that is part of your fun. Try to be kinder about giving your unsolicited advice.
- To the complainee: It's up to you as to whether you want to continue the run; it's only a 15-minute debuff. Two wrongs don't make a right, though, so being rude back is not going to win you any friends.
- To the observer: If you are witnessing the incident but not actually participating, try to kindly stop the advice giving/receiving and move the instance forward. Good or bad, PUGs are better when they are quick and involve less friction.
- To everyone: Whether you are confident in your skills and well-geared, just working your way into non-solo activities, or somewhere in between, the best thing you can do for your PUG experience is make sure you are the best you can be. You are the only player you really have any control over. You should make sure you know your role, have donned the best gear available to you (have you gone faction vendor shopping lately?) and that your gear is at least cheaply gemmed and enchanted. Also, save the Heroics until you have had lots of practice and gear upgrades in the regulars. (This applies to you hardened raiders trying out a different class/role, too.)
Drama Buster Tip of the Week: As desperate as you may feel to escape from overwrought holiday festivities and get back to your game, make sure you're not going to be called away in the middle of something that's hard to quit. If you're not certain that friends and family will leave you in uninterrupted peace, it's probably best for everyone if you don't get sucked into something that will keep you away from the gang for too long. Enjoy friends and family, and build a little faction offline. WoW will still be here later!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Tips, WoW Social Conventions, Features, Drama Mamas






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 9)
Dalrint Dec 25th 2009 4:08PM
Actually, frost is perfectly viable for heroic dungeons right now. My frost dps in five mans is pretty much the same as my fire, and it lets you AoE (and let's be honest, most heroics are aoe anymore) without pulling as much aggro.
It only starts to fall behind in raids, and in raids pretty much everyone is a cookie cutter boring-ass arcane build anyway.
Bitter former frost mage is bitter...
Bronwyn Dec 25th 2009 4:30PM
This, word for word.
Julie Dec 25th 2009 4:32PM
I run heroics as a healer, currently equipped to run ICC-25. So for the most part, I don't have gear issues with groups, because I can always keep them up. That said, many of these heroics (in their original difficulty) take between 45 mins - 90 mins to complete. If you're a very advanced player, say used to doing whole raids in that amount of time (TOC, VOA, etc), then it can be very frustrating to go do -one- heroic instead.
In any event, check your group before the run starts. If your tank and healer are not geared enough, or you think your group is undergeared, then just leave the group. It's your responsibility to get the group through if you stay; not be complaining about why you can't. And if you don't get out early enough, then it's just your fault. I know sometimes you'll get into poor groups (that's the flaw of "random"), but just wait out the debuff, no big deal.
As far as general etiquette, please do not sign up for "random" heroics if you are just gearing up. You should be signing up for specific heroics, that have the specific items you need to be a better player. Most of the fresh 80s should be sticking to Utgarde Keep, Nexus, DTK, etc. You should not be running COT, HOS, TOC, etc. And if you do, then IMO, people have a right to yell at you :p Do dungeons which are appropriate to your gear and experience level; don't try to skip those just because you can.
For the experienced players, if someone meets reaonable requirements for the dungeon, you should not be getting upset just because they aren't the best. We all have to gear up sometime. And if you don't want to waste your time, again, just drop the dungeon.
Thundrcrackr Dec 25th 2009 5:54PM
@Julie (and I don't mean this to just you personally, because a lot of people are saying it besides you)
But i wish people would stop suggesting "Leave the group" as an option. People LEAVING GROUP is my biggest gripe with the whole dungeon finder system so far! I'd rather actually COMPLETE the dungeon, because that's the whole point of running them!
Even if i'm carrying the other 2 undergeared dps and the "jerk" tank is bitching the whole time and the absent minded healer keeps going afk causing a death here or there, i would MUCH rather actually complete it than leave and waste 30 minutes getting into a new group (15 for debuff, 15 to find new group) especially when the new group will probably have some, if not all, of the exact same problems this group had.
What are we supposed to do? Join and leave groups all day? That kinda defeats the whole purpose.
Same goes for ignoring. Ignoring them just means that's one less group you'll be able to join the next time you try to find one. Pretty soon we're all gonna have everyone on ignore and nobody left to group with. Remember, you only need 1 person in a group on ignore to prevent you from being grouped with that group. That means you could be missing out on an awesome group of 3 other awesome, nice, players because of the one doosh who happens to be there who you already put on ignore.
I wish you guys would promote more of a "stick with it, do your job the best you can, ignore the jerks, and just get through it" solution rather than a "run away from the problem" type solution. That just hurts everyone. If you leave a group cuz one guy is being a jerk, well then you just left the other 3 guys hanging, not to mention hurt yourself by having to wait another 30 for a new group.
I literally can't complete a single run anymore without having to stop and wait for a replacement at least once because somebody left because either: its a dungeon they don't like, they think someone is undergeared, they don't like what the tank just said to them, they don't think the healer is keeping pace, ETC ETC. The whole thing is pointless it if takes you multiple groups to even complete one stupid run. If it keeps up like this i'd rather go back to the old way.
ToyChristopher Dec 25th 2009 6:11PM
Frost mage is also good for heroic pugs because of it's survivability. I can't count on a great tank or healer to save my little clothy self but I can count on Magic Absorption, Arctic Winds, Frost Barrier, and ICE BLOCK! Plus like the above poster said, frost aoe is top notch and it also isn't the mana hog the other specs are meaning you won't have to stop and drink after each pull or watch the group run away from you as you evocate. Plus frost provides replenishment which can help out lower group members or even geared healers pull out all the stops when it comes to mana regen. I know my holy paladin decked out in ilevel 245 appreciates replenishment no matter where I am.
Eternauta Dec 25th 2009 6:31PM
Why Julie's comment is downrated?
She makes perfect sense.
It's better to take some time to gear up in normals and/or with crafted or BoE gear rather than just jump straight ahead to heroics in quest greens/blues.
If you don't want to wait of spend all your gold on the AH, you can ask your guild to carry you through heroics for some quick emblems. But don't expect random strangers to carry you.
TIP: A very skilled player in ilvl 200 blues with enchants that don't require abyss crystals and blue quality gems is ready to do Ulduar 10 normal mode. (Source: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/08/ungeared.html )
flawless Dec 25th 2009 6:42PM
I've sat at the entrance to a heroic, in the newly formed PUG, with everyone saying "Hey", "Whats up", "My god, I hate Oculus", the usual shtick. And I've sat there, taking a quick look at the gear and talents of others to find the tank to add to my focus (for Misdirect macro, Hunters represent, yo.)
And in that short space of time, I try and determine whether or not it'll be worth continuing. It's not judging a book by it's cover, it's opening the cover, checking the blurb on the inside flap and seeing of the author's face inside the back looks like a serial killer - or worse, a five year old.
I'm not being paid to sit others through Heroics - Oh, except that one guy that kinda paid me - so I don't see why I should babysit a tank who can't hold aggro, a healer that can't heal more than a single mobs damage at a time, or DPS who think that it's okay to go and grab quest items in Utgarde Pinnacle when we're still fighting up the gauntlet to Skadi. Yes, I'm talking to you - you know who you are.
Sure, sometimes I'll start with what seems like a fairly good group that slowly turns out to be one offspec tank, a druid who can't seem to shapeshift to treeform and maybe DPS who suddenly have guests over. Or they're geared well but apparently think tactics don't apply anymore. Tell that to Garfrost - oh, you can't because you died to too much Frost damage? Sure, blame the healer. They were out of LOS during his forge trip whilst you followed the boss instead.
Success does not mean it has been enjoyable. Enjoying it may not mean it succeeds. I'd rather put my chips in with the group that I *think* will succeed. Then, I'll have enjoyed the success at least.
And f*** anyone who says I can't. Merry Christmas, ya scrubs.
Dysmorphia Dec 25th 2009 9:54PM
@Thundrcrackr: About leaving groups
"I'd rather actually COMPLETE the dungeon, because that's the whole point of running them!"
I don't know...for me the whole point of running dungeons is to have fun. If it's not fun because the group is playing terribly or has rude people, I don't see why in the world I should stick it out. I also don't see why I should waste any effort on being mean to people and saying anything mean either. If I don't like it, I vote with my feet. Freedom means not having to say...anything.
I'm sure that my cavalier attitude about leaving is strenghthended that I play a healer geared for current progression. As soon as the debuff wears off, I can find a group in under a minute. Why stick with an unpleasant group when I can go fish for 15 minutes and then meet another group of people who, odds are, will either be very sweet or very competent or both (this has been the bulk of my experiences). When I have stuck it out with bad groups only to be insulted I wonder why the heck I did it. Now I just remind myself that no one is paying me for this--quite the opposite, so what exactly am I gaining by sticking with four rude or utterly incompetent strangers?
awall Dec 25th 2009 11:12PM
It's going to depend on who drops group for me. A DPS will be replaced in a few seconds to a minute, so it doesn't really bother me too much. If a tank or healer drop, it's going to take significantly longer than that to get assigned a new one, so I get more frustrated. I'd say that if the debuff is still up, you haven't stuck with the group long enough. Common dungeon courtesy should at least include sticking out most of the fifteen minutes to see if the group is really as bad as a couple bad pulls might make it out to be. And as far as discourteous players go, the level of rudeness would need to be very great to warrant making the rest of the party wait for your replacement.
Lannden Dec 26th 2009 12:21AM
Iv only had positive experiences with the new LFG besides one on the first night it was out. Im not an amazingly geared player and was at about 1800 GS when the random dungeon finder arrived in badge and heroic ToC gear, more than enough to tank heroics and naxx though.
I got sent to UP with 2 DPS in the same guild both in full ToGC gear, a DPS arms warrior, and a feral cat druid. Everything seemed cool until the warrior started spamming bladestorm and the druid started attacking targets i had almost no threat on. They both commented I was a "bad tank" because i was not keeping threat on them all the time (though i was 75% of the time and the healer and other DPS never grabbed threat). I retorted saying my gear is no where as good as theirs and that they were being reckless, they responded "Mmmmmhmmmm classic noob excuse."
After the third boss the warrior says "God this tank sucks were going so slow" (only 10 minutes in i might add) and began pulling the entire room. I was already semi chain pulling but this just made it harder on me and the healer and i was basically spamming my taunts and holy wrath. I stopped to drink before the last room before the boss to suddenly seeing a vote to kick me luckily the healer and other DPS said no.
After we killed the last boss they said "Damn your server must be full of noods like you!" and I asked them how I can improve then they simply responded "LOL FUCK OFF NOOB" and left the group.
My idea to stop these kinds of groups is to add random LFG levels. Level 1 would be players who are just getting into heroics well level 5s would be the hardcore raiders who have cleared the highest tier raids, you could pick which levels your willing to group with up to your own level. Say your considered level 3 you cant say you only want to group with 5s.
The way they determine levels would be some combination of gear score, achievements, and how many times people have done certain content. That way the people who only want speed runs with other giant epeen wavers can choose to only group with players of level 5, well most other players would probably choose all 5 levels.
This way the ones who only pick the higher levels would have to wait much, much longer to get groups but not have to worry about the "bads", well most other players who pick most of the levels can get a group in about the normal amount of times we see now.
mebizzle Dec 31st 2009 7:34PM
@Julie
Just an FYI (I haven't seen this mentioned) but queueing for random and queueing for specific dungeons is bascially the same thing. I've been in quite a few ICC heroics that I specifically entered for with people who were doing their random daily.
Desmentia Dec 26th 2009 11:30AM
It's a good deal easier to drop group when your two characters are a tank and a healer, 30 seconds to zone into Dalaran twice, 5 seconds to have a new group.
Ata Dec 26th 2009 12:22PM
@Julie
I think a lot of people think 'Hey, Im 80, now I can get into heroics!' and just start doing randoms. I wish there were a tutorial system that popped up at that point that talked about how there are a few key stats....def cap for tanks and hit cap for dps, being the key. I refused to take my new retdin into random heroics until I was hit capped, because I felt that I would be doing any random group a disservice going in otherwise. I didn't even start heroics on older 80s until I had hit cap, with the exception of going in with guild mates.
It might seem counter productive to have to go through normal dungeons for better gear, before going into heroics, but people, at least now, should hopefully think about that as an option.
I imagine this might not be an issue so much for up and coming 80's in the near future, though, if they're going to be trying to level their characters through random regulars, since odds are one will be more likely to enter regular randoms while in the 70's, and either one, get the good upgrades as they go along, or get enough triumph badges that they can buy t9 right off the bat. I almost regret getting my paladin to 80 just before 3.3, because thinking of it now, I'd probably have been better off running her through at least one random regular every day on the way through the 70's than trying to enter the RDF at 80.
Perhaps that's something these webblogs can talk about, using the random dungeons in that fashion. Maybe it will become the norm to run through them in the 70's in prep for 80, but if people aren't thinking of that as an option and instead waiting to really use the RDF until they're 80, they might be crippling themselves instead.
TamChronin Dec 26th 2009 12:29PM
@Lannden It might seem like a good idea to add a rating system to dungeons, but I'm not really sure that's the solution. It's a bit tricky, especially in a case where the tank is undergeared.
I usually only pug on my healer, because she's my main and needs the frost badges more than my alts. There was one heroic where our DK tank barely had 20k health and the highest dps was doing barely 2k. It was painful, but I managed to heal it and even had a bit of fun with it. They were genuinely excited for the upgrades they were getting in HoS, and that made me feel good for them. I'd have missed that opportunity if there was a rating system because I'd probably stick to my own gear level and never again see the joy of people gearing up in heroics.
On the other hand, I'm seriously scared to pug with my tank. Because she's third down on my gearing priority list, I haven't gotten her gear up. I also don't get a lot of practice with her, and tanks go rusty faster than any other role. I did one random heroic with her, and wanted to scream at the dps DK that was death gripping things I had aggro on, and dropping D&D on things I hadn't even looked at yet. If I stick to heroics with my guild though, they all outgear me and depending on the player I don't have time to get aggro. (Their fail, not mine. I know. It still chafes.)
Maybe the solution is somewhere between ratings on gear and what there is now. Maybe the only solution is for people to stop using the anonymity of the game to be jerks to random strangers. Or maybe all healers should start calling out the utter fail of the dps who pull aggro. I was healing an undergeared tank friend of mine the other day, and the pug warlock pulled aggro once. Just once. After that he toned down his rotation. THAT is the sign of a good dps, not the jerks who do 7k damage and blame the tank and healer when they die every pull.
Riotpills Dec 25th 2009 4:22PM
So what do you do when there is a dude multiboxing and not even playing the 2nd character? He was just on follow and I asked whether the lame duck was going to do anything, he proceeded to say he has a 3:1 (he had a friend) vote to kick me so I should shut up. It left a sour taste in my mouth towards this guy.
Bronwyn Dec 25th 2009 4:31PM
That is when you put him on ignore (BOTH characters), decide if you want to leave the group or finish, and then never have to hear from him again.
themightysven Dec 25th 2009 8:44PM
at the end of the run, suggest he look more into how multiboxing works, because if he's just following and not ranged dpsing or something, then dude fails at multibox
Risq Dec 25th 2009 9:15PM
This is what happened to me, except it was the tank and two dps who decided they'd have fun in Oculus trying to kill the mage (me). Really not fun to know you're outnumbered from the start.
Wish I could ignore people, but it's bugged ;)
Nick S Dec 25th 2009 9:36PM
Keyclone and a single bind would allow his 2nd toon to do about as well as the average PuG, assuming it was a ranged DPSer. Here's the macro!
/assist (name of main toon)
/cast (name of primary nuke)
Then just bind it to every button you hit on your main toon.
Snuzzle Dec 26th 2009 12:23PM
You CAN ignore them.
/ignore (name)-(server). Voila.