Breakfast Topic: Lamented Mechanics
by Matthew Rossi 
Dec 27th 2009 at 8:00AM
For instance, I wish there were tanking fist weapons. I love, love, love fist weapons. I'd settle for a fist that had hit and expertise on it, even. But while I'm willing to switch to a slow main hander when I have a full rage bar to dump as Devastate threat (or for huge Cleaves when tanking lots of trash) it's just not really suitable for a good 80 to 90% of my time tanking. And yet, how I love fist weapons. I have an enhancement shaman, of course, and yet fists almost never drop for him (he's using axes at the moment) while they rain from the heavens and are almost constantly sharded when I'm tanking. I've taken to just picking them up and using them for fun. I understand there will most likely never be a dedicated tanking fist, as the only class that could use it would be a warrior (Paladins and DKs can't use fist weapons, Druids can but would almost never use one over a staff since they can't use shields).
Similarly, whenever I go elemental I always end up drooling over caster swords, and there have been a few times I've heard paladin healers sigh at a dagger drop. So what I turn to ask you is, what do you wish you could use? What drop can you either not equip or just can't effectively use?
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Shaman, Warrior, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Breakfast Topics, Death Knight
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Gamer am I Dec 27th 2009 8:03AM
On my feral druid, I die a bit inside every time a 2-hand axe drops that has strength and agility on it. I can't equip it, and yet it is so perfect for me, especially when they have expertise on them.
Tyrnas Dec 27th 2009 9:19AM
Aside from http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40406 which is a mace, what 2-Hander with Str and Agi are you referring to?
There are axes with stats very similar to polearms, and thus good for Druid tanking, were they not axes, but I can't remember any with str.
I do miss the days of itemization like this, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28773, though. Ah, well, Cataclysm soon, soon
Shrike Dec 27th 2009 11:33AM
@Tyrnas:
At 80 pre-raid, there's the Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver from HHoL. At 70, there was Gorehowl, pre-70 there was Ikiss' Crow Wing Reaper, with one of the coolest and rarest non-unique 2H Axe models. And at 60, there was the Dark Edge of Insanity from C'Thun, though the proc would keep it from a druid's hands anyway.
http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2.1&filter=cr=21:20;crs=1:1;crv=0:0#0-3+1
Terhi Dec 27th 2009 8:05AM
I long for the days when combat daggers will again be a legit spec.
Narshe Dec 27th 2009 9:12AM
I dont get why Blizz went to the trouble of making Rogues use axes when they could simply create more fist weapons instead, making a legitimate weapon for both Rogues and Shaman. Wouldve been a lot more simple than adding axes to Rogues to get more loot to drop for Enh Shaman
Blasterion Dec 27th 2009 9:23AM
That would be because DKs can't use Fist weapons
Angus Dec 27th 2009 10:20AM
The problem is actually worse now.
Now Shaman get to see 1.6 speed axes drop. They'd do better using "The Key" from heroic VH than a 1.6 speed 200 DPS weapon. How dumb is that?
They give Orcs fist weapons (50% of the shaman complaints were from Orcs that got to watch humans and dwarves constantly getting free expertise while they got nothing) and then reduce the amount of fist weapons and make axes that are 100% rogue drops.
Meanwhile they STILL drop daggers that are Rogue only, Swords that are Rogue only, and now add Axes that are rogue only.
They SHOULD have made Swords a shaman weapon and added more Fist weapons in as well. Because I am really getting sick of seeing Axes that are 1.6 drop.
Oh and they could not have made armor pen on every piece around after Ulduar while expertise is missing. Rawr shows my iLevel 200 ring as still being better than half the ones I have seen because armor pen does almost nothing for me and I need the expertise.
Res Dec 27th 2009 12:27PM
@Blasterion -- and that can't change?
Grubba Dec 27th 2009 2:13PM
@Angus
"The problem is actually worse now.
Now Shaman get to see 1.6 speed axes drop. They'd do better using "The Key" from heroic VH than a 1.6 speed 200 DPS weapon. How dumb is that?"
If by "worse," you mean that there is a slow axe drop in EVERY 3.3 instance (and both of the 3.2 raids), then sure. It's definitely worse. I would suggest that if you are only paying attention to the fast ones, the problem is not on Blizzard's end.
The real "problem," such as it is, is that because Shaman and DKs both prefer dual slow one-handers over slow/quick, getting a matched set of weapons either requires double the luck on having a boss drop your desired weapon (and winning it) twice or having two different bosses drop essentially the same weapon (which would, frankly, be dumb). Fortunately, the weapon type is irrelevant as long as it is equippable, and we find that in addition to the slow axes, there are also slow swords that can serve as a second option for DKs and slow fists that can serve as a second (MH-only, unfortunately) option for Shaman.
"Meanwhile they STILL drop daggers that are Rogue only, Swords that are Rogue only, and now add Axes that are rogue only."
I do agree that it is a problem that there are items that are optimal for a single spec of a single class (should I bring up spell plate?). However, it only becomes a major problem if those items push the availability of other necessary items off the loot table, and that is fortunately not the case with Icecrown.
Angus Dec 27th 2009 2:51PM
@ Grubba:
The change was in 3.2. And the only axe I see in the 5 mans has armor pen on it. And yea, I think spell plate is stupid as heck.
Let's look at 3.3
http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filter=ub=4;cr=82:123:42;crs=1:3:3;crv=0:0:0
Rogue weapons. 32 of them. 9 are ranged.
http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filter=ub=7;cr=82:123:42:36:36;crs=1:3:3:1:5;crv=0:0:0:2.4:3
Getting rid of weapons that are too fast, and 2-handers, 9. Enhance Shaman got 2 in the ranged slot (using elemental as a possible, really only 1 in that slot)
Shaman have as many total options in 3.3 as Rogues have stat sticks. 4 of those options have armor pen which only helps about 50% of their damage so it is a pretty low weight stat for Enhance. I'll still take the armor pen over nothing, but a rogue sees a ton more damage from it.
So yea, I really don't think Axes going to rogues helped Shaman. Now they have to compete with the rogues on every weapon type they can use, while rogues still have no competition on daggers and only have to compete with DKs on swords.
Really, how do you justify buffing one class by giving a completely different class access to their weapons and not lowering the amount of drops the other class saw?
Kira Dec 27th 2009 3:41PM
I wish paladins used shammy gear for healing and had an armour increase baked into a talent that brought it back up to par with plate.
Deathgodryuk Dec 27th 2009 4:57PM
"Oh and they could not have made armor pen on every piece around after Ulduar while expertise is missing. Rawr shows my iLevel 200 ring as still being better than half the ones I have seen because armor pen does almost nothing for me and I need the expertise."
I'm having the exact opposite problem. Quite a few of the drops from ICC have Expertise and I'm capped out on it. Why would I need 4 pieces of armor with 92 expertise on it?
The Scarlet Mathematician Dec 27th 2009 5:58PM
@Angus
I think your list is a little misleading. I play a rogue, and I looked over those weapons, and those are not all rogue weapons.
32 weapons are in your list.
2 are white items.
3 are maces. Because of the lack of off-hand maces, it is very difficult to be a mace rogue right now.
5 of the nine ranged weapons are poorly itemized for rogues. (One is a tanking gun, for instance).
2 of the remaining weapons are not rogue weapons (as they lack agility).
That leaves 20 weapons a rogue could want to equip.
Now, a rogue has two different PvE trees to choose from. Assassination needs daggers in both hands. So the 2 main hand daggers (certainly) and the 2 off-hand daggers (to a lesser extent) are for that spec.
Of the remaining 16 weapons, 8 are slow weapons (i.e. rogue main-handers) that would appeal to many DPS classes. The remaining 8 would be the fast 1.5 speed weapons you are complaining about. (Although I believe frost DKs can use fast weapons in both hands if they choose).
Combat rogues are different from enhancement shamans (and other physical dps classes) in that their weapons need to have different speeds. Hence, we cannot pull from the same upgrade pool for both hands. If you get a better mainhand weapon, you can switch your old mainhand to your offhand without penalty. As a rogue, I have to upgrade each hand separately. This is why rogues have about twice as many weapons in the patch. You can wait for the slow axe to drop again. I have to find a completely different weapon.
It doesn't seem like any great injustice has been done here. It merely seems that the different mechanics of the classes force one to use more different weapons than the other.
Grubba Dec 27th 2009 6:32PM
@Angus
"The change was in 3.2."
Indeed. As I pointed out, both of the raids introduced in 3.2 had slow axes. In a raid that had five bosses, it allowed every one-handed melee class to have a weapon that worked for them.
"Getting rid of weapons that are too fast, and 2-handers, 9."
And (unlike Rogues) those weapons fill both the mainhand and offhand slot needs (except for fists, which of course are MH or OH specific). You don't need eighteen drops to fill your weapon slots when nine will do.
I'm not really sure why it seems like you're arguing with me about this. I already said that I do think that Rogue weapon itemization for weapons that are only optimal for Rogues is a problem when there are two other melee classes who want one-handed weapons as well (although it's probably worth pointing out that there are three Rogue specs that use them--lol subtlety--compared to one Shaman and one DK spec).
Blasterion Dec 28th 2009 12:42AM
@ Res
merely stating the fact Frost DW Death Knights use 2.6+ Swords/Axes there for having more of those available then perhaps fist weapons and probably wouldn't change seeing Fist Weapons do not fit Death Knight theme too well
Fletcher Dec 27th 2009 8:07AM
There are guns with tanking stats on them, and the only class they'd be useful for would be prot warriors. So a tanking fist isn't entirely out of the realm of probability ...
As a pally, I'd like to see a decent 2h mace. Maces are iconic for paladins ... so why is it axes as far as the eye can see? As a rogue, I'd like a head slot item I can equip without having to roll a saving throw versus SAN damage. As a hunter, I'd like to be able to use throwing weapons with my abilities.
Matthew Rossi Dec 27th 2009 9:26AM
Yeah, but I think that they view a tanking gun as a relic similar to a Libram or a Totem or a Sigil drop. For instance, my tanking gun dropped from trash in ICC.
Don't get me wrong, though, I'm now dreaming that you're right and they'll make one.
dan Dec 27th 2009 4:01PM
Tanking guns should be treated just like sigils and librams (and wands): available from vendor. Basically all those stat stick style slots shouldn't be cluttering up raid boss loot tables.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if tanking weapons simply go away come Cataclysm. There are so many things changing about plate tanking -- defense talents making you uncrittable and hence defense going away from gear across the board to on next swing mechanics going away and those abilities being redesigned (say goodbye to the biggest need for fast tanking weapons) -- that I could easily see blizz do away with pure tanking weapons in an effort to clear up loot tables some more, make loot more evenly appealing to more classes/specs, make tanks contribute to slightly more dps (thus allowing them to get away from threat mechanics a bit more), etc.
Killchrono Dec 27th 2009 10:59PM
@Dan
I doubt they'll get rid of tanking weapons. Avoidance stats aren't going away, so tanks will still have use for dodge and parry if they appear on weapons. Plus one-handed tanking weapons are generally the only 1H weapons that have strength these days, most other 1H-ers usually have agility as their second stat since most dps that use them rely on agility, with the exception to 1H DKs. While one could argue that tanks have use for agility thanks to added dodge and crit, strength is generally more preferable for sure-fire DPS, and if blocking becomes viable again in Cata then we'll need strength to help with our block rating once more.
dan Dec 28th 2009 12:49AM
Blizz has an ongoing concern regarding avoidance however. There's no need to assume they'd want to have avoidance stats on every single slot of a tank's gear. Some argument could be made for str derived block. There are heaps of str on the other gear slots too.