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12-30-2009 @ 6:43PM
What I want answered in the next KYL is a discussion of why Forsaken gained free will, but if the Lich King "dies," all the rest of the scourge will become psychopathic killers. I know I asked this on a queue, and there was a long discussion, but none of them satisfactorially answered this. The bottom line is that all evidence points to when the Lich King loses control over his minions, they gain free will, and oftentimes join the crusade against the forces that caused them to become undead in the first place. In the queue discussion, some people had mentioned the attacks on cities - my answer is that was coordinated by the lich king, not just random zombie violence. Others said that they would just attack everyone willy nilly, including women/children of small vilalges - my answer is that they already do that, and if we knew the lich king was to fall, there are plenty of heroes (as well as footmen/grunts) to mop up the remnants of the undead to prevent most of the destruction. Not to mention the fact that the Lich King and his necromancers are the ones raising the undead, so if you cut off that power to begin with, the scourge goes bye-bye.Nice writeup Matt. Definitely gives a good, accurate background of the Alliance, and pertinent history.
12-30-2009 @ 7:08PM
1) Most of the Scourge is made up of ghouls, abominations, and other nearly mindless creatures. They don't really have any free will to get back. Even if they didn't run rampant, they'd probably fall under the sway of various Cult of Damned necromancers and still be a problem.2) The Forsaken are kind of nuts because of their time spent in the Lich King's service. Now imagine how nutty someone would be who had been serving the Lich King 5-10 times as long.3) Speaking of the Forsaken, look how well that whole "undead with free will" experiment turned out. Not even the Horde really trusts them anymore, so it makes sense that the Alliance especially wouldn't be thrilled to see either the Forsaken's population grow or an entirely new faction of free Scourge.4) The Lich King only recently became a major threat. For years he sat around doing nothing. By putting a new Lich King on the throne, the hope is that he'll be able to hold back the Scourge for a while. Considering how messed up Arthas was to begin with, I'd expect the new Lich King to be able to stay relatively uncorrupted and harmless for much longer. I'm sure the factions will be hard at work trying to figure out a way to destroy the Lich King once and for all, but until then this seems like a pretty good option.
12-30-2009 @ 7:09PM
There are lots of zombies/skeletons/abominations in the Scourge. There are those joining the Scourge with full free will like Kel'Thuzad. There is also a 3rd catergory within the Scourge, the 4 horsemen, Anub'arak, many death knights, etc., who are most likely mind-controlled by the Lich King against their free will. They are from nil/simple minded to cunning/methodical/tough undead that we often see in the game.I propose there is a 4th catergory: who are not controlled, nor wants to gain 'immortality' by joining the Scourge but becomes one nevertheless. Falric and Marwyn are among them. Recall their words in HoR. They commited unspeakable atrocities along with Arthas. So much so, they have long lost any hope inside themselves for redemption. They have simply given up. They serve the Scourge not because they are compelled or excited about it, but because they don't see any way out of it.I think these undead are the most dangerous ones that Uther was talking about.
12-30-2009 @ 7:30PM
I figure it does give them free will back, but a good chunk of the Scourge is fairly mindless (Abonimations, Ghouls, Zombies, etc.) they would just go off on one big Thanksgiving style food binge, infecting what corpses they do chow down on and spread the plague. Furthermore, various Scourge leaders along with the Banshee Queen would probably spark various civil wars for undead dominance that would get quite a few innocents swept up in the cross fires. I mean, Arthas already does a fair amount of sweeping innocents up into it all, but looking at the current Scourge leadership, most come off as hesitant to act due to fear of pissing off the Lich King should they fail. Furthermore, the entire Cult of the Damn comes off as totally screwed over by stupid schemes and bureaucracy. It's like their the only ones to try and act on their own plans because they are too feverishly in love with the Lich King and thus even him utterly destroying them seems to be A-OK with them since it is a form of death. For them, as the Spider Lady in Naxx put it, the greatest blessing is to die in the master's name. Free to fail and run away and try again and without having to deal with the Cult's idiocy, who knows what actual damage various leaders in the Scourge structure could deal.I'll agree, it isn't much to go on, but that's my 2 cents. Overall, I'm a bit disappointed with Blizzard in dealing with Scourge lore in Wrath so far. Am I the only one that remembers the Obsidian Statues and such in W3: Frozen Throne and often wonder now that we are in Northrend where Gargoyles come from? I mean, supposedly they were originally Northrend beasts as described back in WC3. I find it a bit odd we don't see any nests of a few feral ones or at least their dwellings/construction area.
12-30-2009 @ 7:41PM
It is my understanding that for some time, the Lich King had built up forces significant enough to turn all of Azeroth, Horde and Alliance alike, into a charnel pit. The vague sliver of humanity left in Arthas- now virtually outside him, like a ghost, has successfully managed to prevent unleashing this war-machine fully upon the world, but it is nevertheless ready and aimed at us- like a taut bow, drawn and ready to fire- kill the archer, and the arrow flies (messy, but it still goes someplace).I'm positive that despite Uther's insistence that, "There must always be a Lich King," it is absolutely possible that werf could don the crown and proceed to dismantle the Scourge forever- if werf could retain werf's senses, personality, and intentions well enough to do so. If we physically dismember and disintegrate ever last undead, seal away or decimate every plague, etc.- then there would be no Scourge to fear and no need for a Lich King.As it is, however, our entire efforts have focused on cutting off the head of our foe- that is, killing the Lich King. I think the main, final point of all this is simply this: It won't work that way. Just like a zombie, cutting off the head is pretty much a useless gesture- in this case, it may actually make the body (The Scourge) MORE dangerous, rather than less. Uther and Blizz are saying that we essentially have to adapt our goal to current information- that is, we're going to cut off the current head and through somebody else's head on it, one that we won't have to fight, at least, not as hard as we do Arthas/Ner'zhul.I'd like to add that our plan to cut off the head is a good one, despite everything. Go into Pit of Saron and imagine each of the slave and NPCs in there as at least equivalent to yourself in power, even though, for mechanics reasons, they aren't. The Scourge is FREAKISHLY SCARY and practically invincible- you can't just fight it, because for every bit of life you lose, it gains. You can't beat it down through a war of attrition. You can't slowly wear it down. Almost every enemy we face from the Scourge is there because at ones point, somebody good and noble and tragic fought them and lost. By all kinds of means, it is constantly growing, like cancer. It's scarier than Chuck Norris, is all I'm saying, and we felt that 'kill the Lich King himself!" was probably a really good way to cut out the tumor that we call the Scourge.And then Uther effectively pops up and tells us, "No, no, that's not gonna work. I'm sorry. It sucks. You're all just gonna die. Toodles!"And while we cry our sorry little eyes out, He pops back up and says,"Oh, don't be such a pansy! Anyway, I thought of something neat- kill the Lich King and then TURN ONE OF YOUR BUDDIES INTO THE NEW ONE. Yeah, I know it'll suck, but, come on, you had a second to get used to unavoidable undead servitude, right? Go find some sucker to pawn this off on!"What do you think? Added perspective helps out on why the Scourge will go psycho instead of gaining free will like the Forsaken? Or maybe not?I should add lastly, the Forsaken have indeed NOT given up the Scourge quest of destroying everything- they're just a good bit sneakier than the Scourge. RAS, Sylvanas, Putress, and Wrathgate-related lore as case in point.
1-02-2010 @ 10:13PM
What has been seen is that the Scourge are susceptible to being controlled by demonic elements as well, as was seen with the Dreadlords in the Plaguelands as the Lich King was weakening and recalled Arthas and what forces he was able to retain control over, what hadn't regained its free will and sided with Sylvannas came under the control of Varmiathras and his brothers. Isn't there also a quest that hints at the possibility of Forsaken being able to recall atrocities committed while they were enslaved as lowly ghouls and zombies amongst the Scourge? Anyways, in the absence of the Lich King's Control and sustained free will, scourge simply fell under the sway of Varimathras, Detheroc and Balnazzar... the possibility of a third or fourth state of undead exists beyond "Enslaved" and "Free-Willed," these being "Freed and insane" driven mad by the trauma of experiencing death, undeath and all the things they may remember having done while enslaved... the erratic behavior could be exceptionally prone to violence. Then they could possibly be a "Freed and Instinctive" state, possibly lacking a proper soul, the body is in a state of unliving without the benefit of a fully functioning mind/soul to guide it and goes into an instinctive mode that includes "Feed" which turns the horde of undead into something more akin to locusts. It is entirely possible that some of these carry an adequately potent form of the Plague of Undeath that victims themselves eventually rise again, very possibly as one of the two states of mind previously mentioned, or basically your stereotypical Zombie outbreak. It is entirely possible for Demonic elements to attempt to exercise control over these ravenous bands of undead as well... and there are plenty of Scourge and Demons spread amongst both continents to make this a real possibility, and 3 Dread Lords were able to retain control over large numbers of Scourge even while the Lich King was around (Albeit weakened).It has been mentioned several times before throughout WoW.com that overall, the Alliance, Horde, and the Crusade have not been faring well against the Scourge overall, and that the Cult of the Damned have infiltrated extensive portions of both the Alliance and the Horde, so knowledge of Necromancy and possibly the plague itself (especially amongst RAS survivors) will very likely survive the Lich King's fall with these cultists that had not yet been rooted out. Indeed, lore wise the original campaign to "Wipe out the Scourge" has devolved into an attempt to cut off the Serpent's Head due to disastrous events at Wrathgate and elsewhere as the losses mount. The Knights of the Ebon Blade which are providing the greater portion of success have done so primarily by taking out local leaders of the Scourge that provided finer tuned direction rather than wiping out everything in sight. This suggests the the Undead are less a normal Serpent and more resembling of a Hydra with only the Lich King as a proper head at present, but upon cutting it off, without putting a new head in place immediately, dozens if not hundreds of heads spread across the face of Azeroth would grow in its place, free of whatever remaining conscience remained of Arthas that had previously held them all back.
12-30-2009 @ 8:21PM
Why does everybody keep saying Sylvanas is evil =(I realize the Krokron people are in Undercity but I still don't see her becoming entirely evil and wanting to destroy everything. She might have alternative motives for being with the Horde, but I don't remember seeing anything that would really hint at her going all evil.Also, I don't know if I entirely understand how the Scourge is ever living. I realize killing the Lich King would cause them to go crazy, but obviously there are ways around them. Mainly the Dragonflight. I find it hard to belive that the Various Dragon Aspects can't do anything to stop the scourge. I mean, the Scourge are destroyed by just trying to enter the Green Dragonflight's Shrine. I'm sure that if the Races really tried, they could find a permament cure to the whole "omgevalscourge" thing.Which makes me wonder if the Dragonflight are ever going to actually do anything. Currently Alexstraza is the most powerful being in Azeroth (Going by HP, of course) and yet she can't do anything against the Lich King? Aren't the Dragons meant to be the great protectors of Azeroth?IDK just doesn't make sense to me that the Scourge could completley destroy Azeroth if the Lich King dies. Maybe in Cataclysm we'll get more insight into how the Scourge works, or why the Dragonflight seem so uninterested in the Scourge. They obviously are interested in thier own little games (Emerald Dream, Infinite Dragonflight, DESTROYING THE WORLD) but you'd think the Titans would come back and smack some sense into them or something.
12-30-2009 @ 8:24PM
There are 2 basic types of undead:Mindless, Those long dead after being ressurected and who barely have a soul or a brain, they can only only take orders and understand basic combat, aka ghouls, abominations, zombies etcMindful, they were ressed back right after being killed, they have will power but most are still under the control of the lich king while those who freeded themselves are the forsaken or ebon blade.Now the Forsaken is ruled by a number of mindful undead, like syllvannas etc but they can still summon dead of there own, most of which are mindlessNow the Scourge have a lot of mindful of undead but they are still under the control of the lich king, while some others woolfully are ruled by the lich king, like cult of the dammed members who have become undead, Anuberians seem to be mind controlled as they were full force attacking the scourge back during the spider wars(either that or they will follow there king, Anub nerak to the death). After the lich king is killed I am sure the Mindless Scourge who are under the control of the lich king will go insane and attack anything in sights, anything they see they will attack, no matter if a fellow undead, a human, orc etc
12-30-2009 @ 8:52PM
"Why does everybody keep saying Sylvanas is evil =("Because they played through the undead newbie zone quests and read them. Sylvanas is behind the New Plague which is explicitly intended to kill both the living and the Scourge -- remember trying it out on the dwarf prisoner of war being kept in the cellar of the Brill inn?The fact that she has boobs doesn't make her not a genocidal sociopath.
12-30-2009 @ 9:33PM
Play Warcraft III. A lot of your questions are answered there. When the Frozen Throne was damaged by Illidan if I recall, Arthas began losing his powers and therefore his hold over Sylvanas and the forsaken. Thus she and they regained their freewill.
12-30-2009 @ 10:17PM
The Forsaken are sentient because they were strong-willed individuals and resisted the Lich King's control, even in undeath. When Illidan cracked the Frozen Throne with the Eye of Sargeras, his control waned just enough for them to break free. The Knights of the Ebon Blade were likewise strong-willed individuals and former heroes who were able to retain their individuality.They were the exception to the rule. Most of the undead are little more than mindless puppets being directed by the Lich King (he essentially controls the whole of the Scourge, telepathically).As Uther states, very clearly, in the Halls of Reflection: Arthas is the only thing controlling all the Scourge. Without that power holding them in check, they become mindless killing machines and will set themselves lose upon the mortal world. What little remains of Arthas is literally all that's preventing a zombie apocalypse. That's why the Lich King needs a successor, a hero who will be able to keep the Scourge restrained.
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