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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsThe Dungeon Finder and gear disparity
by Eliah Hecht 
Jan 2nd 2010 at 2:00PM
There is some confusion as to whether/how the Dungeon Finder matches characters according to internal gear score. To the best of my knowledge, it actually attempt to create a discrepancy between characters' gear, so that you're likely to wind up with a few heavily geared members 'carrying' lesser-geared members. This is directly contrary to a claim I've seen circulating that the system attempts to match internal gear scores.
If the system doesn't attempt to create disparate groups, it should, and if it does, I'm glad it does. It may be disheartening to see someone in your group in full blues or maybe even a couple greens, instead of the now-familiar suit o' purples, but as some commenters pointed out in my post on Dungeon Finder bingo, we all started out in blues and greens at 80 (with the possible exception of some crafted gear and BoEs), and heroics were designed to be run with that gear. Where are the epics supposed to come from, for a pre-raid character?
Furthermore, a less-geared character might actually need some of the gear that drops in the ilvl 200 heroics (i.e. everything except CC, FoS, PoS, and HoR), which is a nice change of pace from the usual shardfest. It may take you a few extra minutes to farm your emblems, but PuGs are about more than just you: they're about a group of people coming together to help each other out, and enjoy a dungeon.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 11)
zappo Jan 4th 2010 11:13AM
I just hit 80 as a shaman and started healing which I had never done before. It was actually pretty stressful but honestly, I'm guilty of taking a sigh of relief when I see the tank is over-geared. To be perfectly honest though, I could easily heal any tank in blues/greens that had 42k health provided that the DPS weren't morons and I was allowed to occasionally drink.
It sounds like you have a dps who is healing to get in groups faster, but doesn't know what they're doing.
zappo Jan 4th 2010 11:15AM
Er, to clarify I've just started healing as a shaman. I've done it as a priest and paladin raiding. I know how to heal, just trying to get the feel for shammies.
clerkenwell Jan 2nd 2010 2:31PM
As someone who doesn't want or need anything from my heroic runs but badges and enchanting mats, I would really prefer that the dungeon finder matched people with similar gear scores. If two or three people are being carried (and god forbid one of them is a tank, Misdirect can only do so much) it's virtually guaranteed that none of the loot is getting disenchanted. So even though I show up, do as much work as anyone else, and contribute far more to our success and the speed of our run than those being carried, I get rewarded less.
As was mentioned in the article, heroics are designed to be doable in greens and blues; our epics aren't required in order for groups of lesser-geared players to finish the instances as long as the players know how to play their class. Of course, a lot of them don't, but those people aren't learning a thing by being carried, and it only serves to make the geared players more bitter by having to watch everything go to someone who clearly doesn't know their right hand from their left.
Call me insensitive, but I don't run heroics out of a sense of charity, and I don't believe letting people get carried through their heroics is going to help them become much better players in the long run. Put them with a group of players where everyone will be required to pay attention and contribute in order to succeed? I guarantee that will see people learning their roles and classes much more quickly.
Azrahel Jan 2nd 2010 3:03PM
I have to agree on this one. A lot of things that blizzard has done to make this game more accessable to new players has actually gone a long way to breed a whole generation of bad players who have not earned there own levels or gear.
These players who have been power leveled via friend of a friend or what ever, get to 80, don't know any thing about how to play their class let alone play it in group setting. On top of that they have this attitude towards any one who would even suggest any thing to them that can only be taken as the attitude of an ingrate teenager.
Its completely true if blizzard really wanted to help these players they would group them with others that are at their gear level which will force them to learn how to play the game. They are literally giving the man to fish instead of teaching how to catch one.
cawestmoreland Jan 2nd 2010 3:45PM
Well you don't necessarily deserve the shards yourself. If you don't want to run those instances with undergeared/skilled players, then join a raiding guild, and run dungeons with them. You do not have to use the random dungeon finder. It is perfectly acceptable for you to group up with friends that are geared/skilled and enjoy your runs that way.
Sorcefire Jan 2nd 2010 5:18PM
Completely agree with this! Artificially creating a gear discrepancy is not really doing much to help lesser-geared players beyond basically giving them free epics or blues. They don't learn how to CC, they don't learn about threat management (or even pay attention to it), and they certainly don't learn when to press certain buttons.
Warlocks nuking everything in sight, mages casting blizzard on every pack of mobs from the start, ret pallies trying to tank, rogues failing at stealth, etc. That's the behavior that's becoming prevalent because the random system does not encourage or force the players to learn2play.
Now that most of the serious players have their t9 gear and the difficulty of ICC raids keeps these mediocre players out I think all we'll see in the coming months are twinks, overgeared alts, or retarded players left in the mix. It's sad and unfortunate, but Blizz is in complete control on this system and could make it better but have chosen not to address any of the concerns of the community (again).
vocenoctum Jan 3rd 2010 9:50AM
The simple thing is, find 4 friends and Q for a random as a group. You still get the same rewards and an instant Q and don't have to worry.
If you're putting yourself into the LFG PUG pile, expect to have some less geared folks at times.
LandMineHare Jan 2nd 2010 2:33PM
If you're the only person with a gearscore above 3.5k (5.1k here), and you're carrying the entire group, it is problematic. And it is quite disheartening. A 15 minute speed run becomes an hour plus debacle as the tank can't take hits (or hold aggro), the healer doesn't heal enough, and the other DPS doesn't put out a combined HALF of what you can do.
I'm all for helping NEW players, but being the only person expected to help in situations like this is ridiculous.
SINisterWyvern Jan 3rd 2010 12:03AM
get over yourself
Gamer am I Jan 2nd 2010 2:34PM
I wrote about this kind of disparity on my own blog (http://wowphilosophized.blogspot.com/2010/01/should-tier-9-gear-be-standard-in.html, if you care to read it), but to give you the TL:DR version, I am actually happy when I see someone in "sub-par" (I use the term sarcastically) gear in a heroic. Why? Because heroics have become boring! I'm a tank and healer, and when I heal instances, it's just an exercise in repetition. Keep Rejuvenation on the tank, throw up Regrowth for the bosses, use Wild Bloom to heal other damage. I'd prefer a tank in quest blues to one in TotGC-25 gear any day, since they are more interesting to heal, and I prefer DPS in quest blues, because then the fights are long enough that I actually need to watch my mana. As a tank, I prefer healers in quest blues because then I actually need to coordinate my defensive cooldowns and avoid damage (rather than soaking it), and I prefer DPS in quest blues since the fights don't end so quickly that the bosses can't even use the abilities that made them interesting in the first place (I can't be the only one who has seen Prince Taldaram in AK without ever using flame spheres. So boring...)
In short, fresh 80's make heroics interesting again, and I for one cheer when I see them in my group.
Rhabella Jan 2nd 2010 3:43PM
As a druid healer, heroics are absolutely brutal. I stay in tree form or I pop out and try and DPS some. Hell, I have even switched to my balance spec, healed all the trash, switch to my resto spec for the boss, innervate kill the boss, switch back to balance and drink so i can dps some more.
The one thing I hope results out of this is Blizzard evaluating the tree form like they said they needed too. I'm not a fan of turning it into a metamorphosis like ability as GC mentioned previously, but it would be nice if i could throw a starfire or wrath without playing shifting dance where there is nothing to do because rejuv is enough to keep the tank topped off.
Michael Jan 2nd 2010 2:34PM
Its interesting that some players are using the frost resistance ilevel 200 gear to get around the dungeon finders internal gearscore. I usually don't mind grouping with low geared players. But 800 dps?!?!
Volkrin Jan 2nd 2010 2:38PM
I don't know that having well geared players carry low geared ones really is all that good. The thing is this: a low geared 80 is most likely a new-ish 80, and is probably not yet very experienced in how to play that character in high level group content. It may even be that person's first 80, in which case they really need to get some experience from normals and heroics. Now how is a tank going to become more skilled when the healer can save him from anything? He could do the most ridiculous and foolish pulls in the world because he's got a BiS tree druid backing him up. If you never get killed, you never know if you're doing it wrong, and you might end up learning it the wrong way. It's a hell of a lot harder to convince someone that they're current methods are incorrect if they've been practicing them long enough, you have to make those corrections during the learning process. I used a tank as the example above, because that's what I play, but this can go for anyone. A DPS can hardly learn threat management in the tank is in ToGC epics, nor will they properly learn to do damage if the rest of the DPS are killing things before they can even hit the mobs. A healer won't learn jack squat if the tank just plain never gets hit because his avoidance is so obscene, and the DPS kill the boss before AoE becomes an issue. All in all, dungeons are not just good for loot runs, they are good for learning as well, but only if the content is challenging enough for learning to be necessary. "Carrying" players is not only a disservice to the people doing the carrying, as it essentially forces them to do someone else's work(and part of true teamwork is everyone pulling their own weight), it does a disservice to those being carried, as it neatly eliminates both the impetus and opportunity to learn. And speaking as someone who has a lot of alts, and has run a lot of low level dungeons, getting carried is kinda boring. But that's just me.
Fairlane Jan 2nd 2010 3:49PM
I cannot improve on this.
sephirah Jan 2nd 2010 2:42PM
The problem isn't gear disparity, but lack of experience and/or skill.
If someone is in blues but know how to play his class, the run will take a bit more but won't be a wipe feast.
But if you've people that, even in full purple:
- as tank, can't get aggro on more than one mob
- as healer, heals only the tank even when AoE is damaging the rest of the group
- as dps, hit the wrong mob or do low damage due to wrong "rotations"
you can never be sure to be able to complete the instance (the IC ones at least).
Mortiseraphim Jan 2nd 2010 2:44PM
what? I thought they were just for frost badges. Hmm, I must have missed the memo.
Ronin Jan 3rd 2010 11:29AM
Sorry, Mortiseraphim, I guess you got voted down because you didn't give a "sarcasm alert".
I got your meaning, if no one else did ;)
Sleutel Jan 2nd 2010 2:47PM
It's pretty rare that I find anybody with a gearscore (serious business, right?) as high as mine on my main, since she's a tank in gear from ToC10/25 and ToGC10/25. But most people are usually in at least the low 4ks per the GS addon, with a lot of them in the high 4ks or lower 5ks. Honestly, most runs are so easy that I've actually found myself wishing that we had gotten assigned a fresh 80 who could use the gear and would appreciate a fast run. (Then, of course, the time I actually get a new player is in H-HoR... :D )
omedon666 Jan 2nd 2010 2:48PM
Gah, this wasn't meant to be a reply, but a comment of its own, so pardon the double-post...
I can agree with this article, but I would add this.
Before you enter the "automated carrying" that is intended in randoms, I think everyone should observe the "5 man progression", particularly on their first character.
-Specific regular 5-man 80 dungeons (probably a very short phase)
-Random regular 5-man 80 dungeons (probably also a phase that doesn't last long)
-Specific low end heroic 5-man dungeons (UK, VH, DTK, etc)
-*optional* Specific running of "all the rest" of the "first set" of heroics
-*conditional* Specific selection of the "219 set" (H-ToC, Regular frozen halls) as soon as they light up in your options
-*conditional* Specific selection of the heroic frozen halls, as soon as, or shortly after they light up for you.
-Random heroic 5-man dungeons. This phase should be observed only when you are comfortable with most if not all of them. And by comfortable, I don't mean "can heal the whole thing chain pulling without sitting down", I mean not making yourself a victim to the less patient set, by being prepared for whatever and whoever the DF finds for you.
I'm the patient, overgeared but still respectful methodically-paced tank. The tank drives the bus, but the healer's setting the gear, unfortunately not everyone will respect this. The frost grind has made 5-man content a staple of even the most "time is money" raider, and they are mixed in with people like me. I can hang with them, can you? Save yourself the blood pressure increase by being ready for them. You can't tell them to be less efficient with their time but you can prepare yourself for when that pace is forced on you.
Or you can desert, that option is always there. :)
Lyts Jan 2nd 2010 2:58PM
Although I have done instances on my healer priest for the most part I am leveling lower level alts
3 at 36-45 and 2 mid 70's so there hasn't been the issue about gearing. Frankly the LFD has been a boon for these alts as they could wait for literally hours to get into a group. I have found these lower lvl groups on the whole very good. I have one healer and the rest are dps the average wait is less than 15 minutes. I have a druid healer and would like to be able to need the cloth with spell power on it and have sometimes been able to convince a cloth caster to pass if they dont realy need it. On a side note I am leveling a shaman as a healer useing dungeons as much as possible and without Heirlooms (as it is on a realm where I have no 80) doing as few quests as I can. was able to go from 15 - 17 with six runs of dungeon in Ogrimar.