You wouldn't like me when I'm hungry

When writing this Breakfast Topic I noticed in the comments a certain disconnect between how I approach running heroics and how other people seem to. So I thought I'd try and encapsulate the differences and try and help explain why sometimes tanks seem a little touchy or off in runs. It's not just the blows to the head, guys.
For starters, I don't run heroics because I want anything. Aside from a few DPS drops (trinkets, mostly) that I want as alternatives to trying to take them from a main spec DPS raider, there's literally nothing in these instances I actually want. I don't even really want the Emblems of Triumph. I blow those on gems because I can't think of anything else to do with them. No, I generally run random heroics for one of two reasons.
Reason 1: someone asks me to tank so they can get into some heroics faster. This is usually a guildmate. Sometimes it's multiple guildmates. Frankly, I prefer it when it's four other guildmates and we can queue for randoms as a group, because then I know everyone and can more reliably expect what they're going to do on pulls, I know who is a reliable Vigilance target, etc etc. But this doesn't always happen, and to be fair, quite a few players we've picked up through the random system have been really nice people and good players.
Reason 2: I decided to sign up as DPS because I was bored but wanted to decompress. I get into the instance, and the tank is wearing mismatched epics selected more for their ability to get him into harder dungeons than their actual tanking viability. Sighing, not wanting to eat the 15 minute debuff, I grudgingly volunteer to tank said heroic after the tank dies three times trying to pull the trash packs in VH and I end up wearing a shield and using a two hander to tank anyway. If I'm going to do this, I want to have my good set of tools. I wouldn't try and fix a sink with a chainsaw.
Either way, I'm not tanking the heroics I run out of any sense of need. Either I've been asked to do it and felt like being nice and helping some friends past the long queues, or I waited through that queue myself as DPS only to end up tanking because someone else took a shortcut but couldn't do the job. Combine that with the consequences of others dropping dungeons they don't want to do (like what seems to happen on my battlegroup with Halls of Stone every single day) and you end up with me looking at Krystallus while two DPS'ers I don't know very well are dead... again... and I and the healer have to take the guy down. For the third time that day. Is it any wonder I might want to skip the guy? I understand why, to a DPS who has to wait 20 minutes between runs, this seems insane and I do sympathize. It's annoying that there aren't as many tanks or healers and the queue times are longer for DPS. Remember, that's why I often agree to tank for friends, so they don't have to wait so long.
But it seems like there could be some effort extended back to us tanks. Not just on the subject of skipping bosses, like I said, I can understand why you'd be resistant. You can't take an hour and run four heroics back to back pretty much any time you want, you want maximum emblems for effort. So, then, since that's the case... would it kill you not to run ahead of the tank and pull mobs with your face while I'm still looting?
This is the behavior I find most baffling and upsetting in a heroic, especially one where I'm already chain pulling packs of mobs pretty much non stop. There's no reason for it. We're clearing Drak'Tharon as fast as it possibly can be cleared. I pulled pretty much the entire hallway to the first boss in 2 minutes. I only stop to loot occasionally. So why? Why do you do this to me? You can clearly see me back here, bent over an undead troll to see if he has anything good on him. It takes four seconds at most and then I'll charge into that next pack, I'm just waiting for Thunder Clap to come down off cooldown anyway. Surely that four seconds won't kill you. Well, it often turns out that yes, that four seconds will kill you, since you run off face first into a pack and die like a chicken, then I have to charge in and save the healer who foolishly tried to keep you alive.
I try not to be that tank. You know the tank I mean. The one whose head barely fits into Ahn'Katet. Barking orders, making snotty comments. Honestly, aside from "Hi" and "Hey everyone" and the occasional quip, I don't talk much at all. I'll mark an initial kill target, sometimes I'll ask if folks are ready if mana seems low on the healer, and otherwise try and get through the instance with minimal fuss and maybe some laughs. As DPS, I've had tanks so bad (and so bellicose) that they made the entire run a festival of autoattacking and praying. But sometimes you guys test me with things like dropping full AoE on a pack just as I charge in (I haven't even hit Thunder Clap or Cleave yet, I'm still in transit to the mobs there's no way I could possibly have aggro yet) or even better, using full AoE on a single pull for no discernable reason, and it makes me sad. Well, sad, and slightly insane. Insane enough to deliberately taunt pull the abomination after Skadi and just let you AoE it into your face, then stand around waiting for you to die to taunt it back.
I'm sure we both regret that incident. Okay, I don't. I laughed. My wife laughed. My other guildmate laughed. Even the random healer we'd picked up with you laughed. Pretty much everyone laughed. The abomination even laughed, as I recall.
Let's all try and be respectful of each other, I say. You can do things to make my life easier, like use aggro dumps or redirects, wait until you see the ground explode under my feet before throwing down AoE (feel free to adapt this for the paladin, DK or druid tanks you get) and stay behind me, and in return, I'll try my best to keep all the bosses you want to kill (even the ones I don't want to do) off of you and all the other mobs safely hitting me in the face where they belong. I think we can agree that we want me to be the one getting hit in the face here.
Filed under: Druid, Death Knight, Bosses, Instances, Odds and ends, Analysis / Opinion, Patches, Warrior, Paladin, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 11)
Brouck Jan 3rd 2010 6:10PM
I agree with everything you're saying here and more. I'm using the LFG system to gear up and actually learn to tank on my pally (which has always been ret/holy). It is a great system to learn as I have to deal with DPS constantly pulling before me, or pulling off of me, however please, when I state that I am still relatively new to tanking at the beginning of the instance (which I always do) then, please, please allow me time to set the standard, or leave and allow someone else who will.
Heilig Jan 3rd 2010 6:20PM
The answer to all of these problems is simple.
Relax, and let the DPS die. When that DPSer has a 50G repair bill from being retarded, blowing up the meters isn't as much fun. They're not going to kick you. You're the tank. They don't want to wait 20 more minutes for a new one.
It's even more fun when you place bets in guild chat on how long it takes him to rage-quit.
Anathemys Jan 3rd 2010 6:34PM
Firstly, Heilig, my guild does that all the time. I've won maybe 5g more than i've lost on those bets.
Secondly, I am also trying to get gear for my tank set, and practice a little on normal dungeon runs. Unfortunately, my tank gear set is not good enough for tanking heroics, so I don't. Mainly I dps, and yet I still notice alot of those "Ha, I'm top dps- *boss-smack-to-the-face*" kind of people.
Hoggersbud Jan 3rd 2010 6:56PM
I'll kick a tank. When you don't know what the defense cap is. When you have spirit gems. When you have outlands vendor gems. When well, you're just a ret noob who queued up as a tank with no intention of actually tanking.
Either that, or I'll drop group and burn 15 minutes elsewhere.
Alanid Jan 3rd 2010 8:06PM
Try to know the tactics for any of the more difficult bosses, Violet Hold is tricky because there are several bosses to know, etc. Be sure you have at least 23k health and 535 defense and you'll be fine (just to be clear I've tanked heroics including a timed CoS run with under 24k health and we did fine - the larger number just helps to reassure people) Although I have even been called not good enough to tank Trial of the Champion HC with above 24k health and 340 defense, I also had the achievement proving that I had done it before but apparently I must have conjured some sort of sorcery to get that. The guy was actually quite amusing to be honest.
The moral? Watch for idiots and asses, you could be the best tank in the game but somebody will still think your not good enough.
gabreil.the.undestined Jan 3rd 2010 8:11PM
I have to agree with ppl that say let the DPS die. I mean most of the time it teaches them a lesson and they get the picture. But sometimes you get those that are thick in the head and it takes a few times and then they end up /rage /drop grp lol
But yes I feel you pain as a tank :D
slartibart Jan 3rd 2010 9:15PM
Actually had this happen today to me;
I'm generally ret spec, as I got burnt out on healing in TBC and enjoyed being in a less stressful role.
Now I'm dual specced prot, and it's an obvious godsend in getting emblems, which are solely for building up my tank set at this point.
I had a fury warrior today, who was exquisitely geared (4k+ dps, he was mostly all ICC gear), but insisted on setting the pace. I let him, all the way up to the iceblock room in Nexus, where he proceeded to get dropped on almost every pull. I'd rez him, and he'd be the first to charge into the next group of mobs, where I'd again not pull them until he died.
I think after about 5 deaths (every pull in that hallway) he got the picture.
There was nothing being done by him except extra stress on the poor priest, and granted, plate dps has a bit more leeway with a shred of over-aggro, and one or two hits from an errant mob; but for the life of me, I couldn't figure out what this guy wanted.
I was essentially chain pulling, and as you said Matt, all these tactics do is slow the run down..... and if you've got a cranky tank, they start to cost you money.
Angus Jan 3rd 2010 9:54PM
As a healer I refused to heal a rogue that was facepulling with a fishing pole equipped last night, he got mad. He tried to reset anub and didn't bother to check his vanish cd, twice and wanted me to heal him after he screwed up our timer by waiting 7 seconds to release so I wasted 6.5 seconds of a rez cast.
Complete moron.
After someone says something I am like "um, I wouldn't know, I put the moron on ignore after wasting my time" He died 3 more times. Still didn't learn. He then tried to kick me from the group. (To be fair I had tried to kick him after he managed to get us killed once)
Folks, there are 2 people you don't piss off. The tank and the healer. The reason we see 30 second queue time versus 20 minutes is because no one wants to heal or tank for the morons out there that ruin what should be a 15 minute instance and make it take over an hour.
Rob Jan 3rd 2010 10:34PM
Amen, let the damn dps die. But be nice to them otherwise. We (the community) are quickly getting into the dps vs tank/healer camp, which sucks. Something wrong, we heals/tanks blame the dps, usually with reason, and the dps points the finger right back at us.
Gone are the days of marking every mob, of CC on every pull, on waiting for mana and full buffs. I'd frankly like to see tougher instances in cata. but that's another topic. I guess my point is with the new system there is no real cost to either get into a group or leave a group, so all that stuff goes by the wayside, and when there is any trouble fingers start pointing instead of the group pulling together.
Guruda Jan 3rd 2010 11:04PM
My main is a mage, and the one thing I've always believed and followed concerning instances was this:
"If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault. If the DPS dies, it's THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT."
arcady0 Jan 3rd 2010 11:05PM
I just got out of a lowbie RFD run on a priest alt where I had a Lock that just had to AOE the universe on every GCD. Poor druid tank could barely keep up when the mobs were ebeing lit up before the bear even reached em.
Lock's guildie buddy kept screaming at me in chat:
"Healer heal to lock."
"Healer WTF is your problem, heal the lock."
"Healer, L2Hot the lock!"
So I just played a game of seeing if I could keep that lock between 10-40% health throughout the entire run w/o him dying... :D
Of course... the run took a lot longer than it should have... lowbie priest, mana regen sucks. Healing the lock and then healing the lock's hunter guildie and pet and the bear... I had to drink every other pull.
Can I send him a a 1g bill for the drinks I'm buying? :D
If the fool had kept aggro off himself... we could have steamrolled through.
On my tanks... DPSers doing that is just par for the course.
I'm surprised when I see it on my lowbies. At level 36 you expect idiot play.
But at level 80 in a heroic... come on people... learn to not pull and learn to manage your aggro.
arcady0 Jan 3rd 2010 11:10PM
Er... my post above should say I'm -not- surprised when I see idiot play on lowbies...
But there's no excuse for it by level 80.
:)
CrimsonEyedDeath Jan 4th 2010 12:22PM
Honestly, I think that's what I'm going to do. I try not to be 'that tank', the obnoxious kind. While I'm stupidly overgeared (by and large completely geared for ICC25), I run heroics for the Frosts, and to help my girlfriend gear her druid so she can maybe get to be a full member of the raiding guild.
But at times.......the dps just frustrates the hell out of me. Yes, I'm not pulling the entire room, no you DON'T have to help pull stuff.
I swear, I need to make a macro to click and outline 'if you pull extra stuff, I'm LETTING it kill you, moron. Maybe next time, you'll let the tank pull'
tenchibr Jan 4th 2010 3:39PM
Another addendum should be for healers: the same way there's DPS pulling like they are in a hurry to go to the bathroom (if you need, just say so geez), there are TANKS that cannot WAIT for healers to DRINK UP.
Shaman healers, specifically, for the most part burn their mana when the tank cannot HOLD aggro and they burn on the DPS, so then, when the fight is over, the tank checks his rage/mana/runic and moves on like nothing happened; he doesn't check if everyone isn't at full health or the healer's mana, and keeps pulling.
Then after a wipe, he asks what the hell are you doing all the way back there. That happened to me, with a "guildie" (I am a social member in a raiding guild, and it seriously makes me consider not being there, because that is far from social - I am there because my IRL friend's there, but I thought WoW is a GAME and supposed to be fun, but not when things like that happen.)
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Jan 4th 2010 4:14PM
/votekick xiyangyang02
Now that that's out of the way.
I tank on my DK. I've only had one noob who insisted on overaggroing me, a rogue. Naturally, when I realized he was from my server... /evilgrin... IDK how many other servers do this but I used the old "(rogue) plans on quitting the game, pst him for gold" trick. Kind of a jerk move but he deserved it. Just someone else to put on /ignore for those of you in Emberstorm--except I dunno if I should name names.
Eisengel Jan 5th 2010 6:40AM
How WoW has changed... I remember when being a tank didn't make you the group the lead, it was the person who knew the instance the best. I remember when we didn't have threat meters, and managed threat by remembering what attacks used in what sequences would pull after the tank had used certain abilities. Oh, and we had to walk uphill both ways in the snow too.
LoKey Jan 3rd 2010 6:12PM
Amen
CiM Jan 3rd 2010 6:13PM
God yes. Please.
And while we're at it, other tanks, I realise there's a lot of pressure on you to run the instance as fast as possible from trigger happy DPS and bored healers, but please try to at least wait until (a) the entire group is in the instance and (b) the healer who's just respecced from DPS has had a chance to get some mana before you start chain pulling.
hyasenwow Jan 3rd 2010 7:55PM
This.
Please, please PLEASE don't just start pulling stuff. With the new dungeon system, my game takes longer than normal to load a heroic. By the time I'm fully bluelined and can see the game again, more often than not I find the group in the middle of fighting, and usually, dying. Of course, I get blamed - in fact, not 10 minutes ago I got told I was lazy for not healing. When I explained that my game had still been loading, and it was impossible for me to heal when I was still bluelining, the response was "well that's your problem". I'm not above quitting groups like that, but it doesn't mean it's still not frustrating!
Kylenne Jan 4th 2010 12:51AM
THIS x1000. Especially on the dual spec point. I'm leveling a priest alt and dual spec'd Disc/Shadow. Just today I got into a random BRD pug and switched to Disc right before I was teleported, so I had to drink. Before I sat down for two seconds, the dumbass pally starts pulling. I told him to please don't pull while I'm drinking in the future, he snarked "well don't drink while I'm pulling", and the equally dumbass DPS thought was such a clever comeback. At which point I left the group and put him on ignore. I get groups in less than 5 minutes unless I'm playing during really off hours, as my insomnia sometimes makes me.
This is basic GED level stuff folks. I am really sick and frelling tired of the disrespect leveled toward tanks and healers. And I'm someone with a DPS main who has been DPS the entire time I've played WoW. No, tanks and healers are not perfect and some can be absolute douchebag primadonnas because they can afford to be given the scarcity of people willing to take those roles, but at the same time DPS needs to step up and cut this foolishness out. When you're a dime a dozen you can't afford to be showing your ass like that. This is why no one wants to tank or heal.