You wouldn't like me when I'm hungry

When writing this Breakfast Topic I noticed in the comments a certain disconnect between how I approach running heroics and how other people seem to. So I thought I'd try and encapsulate the differences and try and help explain why sometimes tanks seem a little touchy or off in runs. It's not just the blows to the head, guys.
For starters, I don't run heroics because I want anything. Aside from a few DPS drops (trinkets, mostly) that I want as alternatives to trying to take them from a main spec DPS raider, there's literally nothing in these instances I actually want. I don't even really want the Emblems of Triumph. I blow those on gems because I can't think of anything else to do with them. No, I generally run random heroics for one of two reasons.
Reason 1: someone asks me to tank so they can get into some heroics faster. This is usually a guildmate. Sometimes it's multiple guildmates. Frankly, I prefer it when it's four other guildmates and we can queue for randoms as a group, because then I know everyone and can more reliably expect what they're going to do on pulls, I know who is a reliable Vigilance target, etc etc. But this doesn't always happen, and to be fair, quite a few players we've picked up through the random system have been really nice people and good players.
Reason 2: I decided to sign up as DPS because I was bored but wanted to decompress. I get into the instance, and the tank is wearing mismatched epics selected more for their ability to get him into harder dungeons than their actual tanking viability. Sighing, not wanting to eat the 15 minute debuff, I grudgingly volunteer to tank said heroic after the tank dies three times trying to pull the trash packs in VH and I end up wearing a shield and using a two hander to tank anyway. If I'm going to do this, I want to have my good set of tools. I wouldn't try and fix a sink with a chainsaw.
Either way, I'm not tanking the heroics I run out of any sense of need. Either I've been asked to do it and felt like being nice and helping some friends past the long queues, or I waited through that queue myself as DPS only to end up tanking because someone else took a shortcut but couldn't do the job. Combine that with the consequences of others dropping dungeons they don't want to do (like what seems to happen on my battlegroup with Halls of Stone every single day) and you end up with me looking at Krystallus while two DPS'ers I don't know very well are dead... again... and I and the healer have to take the guy down. For the third time that day. Is it any wonder I might want to skip the guy? I understand why, to a DPS who has to wait 20 minutes between runs, this seems insane and I do sympathize. It's annoying that there aren't as many tanks or healers and the queue times are longer for DPS. Remember, that's why I often agree to tank for friends, so they don't have to wait so long.
But it seems like there could be some effort extended back to us tanks. Not just on the subject of skipping bosses, like I said, I can understand why you'd be resistant. You can't take an hour and run four heroics back to back pretty much any time you want, you want maximum emblems for effort. So, then, since that's the case... would it kill you not to run ahead of the tank and pull mobs with your face while I'm still looting?
This is the behavior I find most baffling and upsetting in a heroic, especially one where I'm already chain pulling packs of mobs pretty much non stop. There's no reason for it. We're clearing Drak'Tharon as fast as it possibly can be cleared. I pulled pretty much the entire hallway to the first boss in 2 minutes. I only stop to loot occasionally. So why? Why do you do this to me? You can clearly see me back here, bent over an undead troll to see if he has anything good on him. It takes four seconds at most and then I'll charge into that next pack, I'm just waiting for Thunder Clap to come down off cooldown anyway. Surely that four seconds won't kill you. Well, it often turns out that yes, that four seconds will kill you, since you run off face first into a pack and die like a chicken, then I have to charge in and save the healer who foolishly tried to keep you alive.
I try not to be that tank. You know the tank I mean. The one whose head barely fits into Ahn'Katet. Barking orders, making snotty comments. Honestly, aside from "Hi" and "Hey everyone" and the occasional quip, I don't talk much at all. I'll mark an initial kill target, sometimes I'll ask if folks are ready if mana seems low on the healer, and otherwise try and get through the instance with minimal fuss and maybe some laughs. As DPS, I've had tanks so bad (and so bellicose) that they made the entire run a festival of autoattacking and praying. But sometimes you guys test me with things like dropping full AoE on a pack just as I charge in (I haven't even hit Thunder Clap or Cleave yet, I'm still in transit to the mobs there's no way I could possibly have aggro yet) or even better, using full AoE on a single pull for no discernable reason, and it makes me sad. Well, sad, and slightly insane. Insane enough to deliberately taunt pull the abomination after Skadi and just let you AoE it into your face, then stand around waiting for you to die to taunt it back.
I'm sure we both regret that incident. Okay, I don't. I laughed. My wife laughed. My other guildmate laughed. Even the random healer we'd picked up with you laughed. Pretty much everyone laughed. The abomination even laughed, as I recall.
Let's all try and be respectful of each other, I say. You can do things to make my life easier, like use aggro dumps or redirects, wait until you see the ground explode under my feet before throwing down AoE (feel free to adapt this for the paladin, DK or druid tanks you get) and stay behind me, and in return, I'll try my best to keep all the bosses you want to kill (even the ones I don't want to do) off of you and all the other mobs safely hitting me in the face where they belong. I think we can agree that we want me to be the one getting hit in the face here.
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Bosses, Death Knight, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 7 of 11)
slartibart Jan 3rd 2010 9:19PM
I'm assuming he stays in his fury spec, and just throws on a shield. And his tank gear etc, he's referenced doing it in the past, I can't remember if he's fury/prot, or fury/fury.
Cor Jan 3rd 2010 9:07PM
Story time!
May years ago I started playing MMOGs with a very good friend of mine that played a cleric and was very good at it. He was also very strict. If you are DPS and you pull agro you get zero heals. He was not being a jerk (usually =) ) but felt it was important for people to play well and didn't belive healing them through their mistakes helped them learn anything.
I carried this lession with me through my years as a top DPS raid Hunter that can say with confidence that I died from pulling agro all of 4 times (yes I remember them and feel shame for each one). 2 of them caused raid wipes.
My point: Are we really playing our best when we allow people to AoE their way through heroics? Sure, it get BORING the 53rd time you ran the dungeon, but is that really an excuse to play badly?
Taytayflan Jan 3rd 2010 9:01PM
I can totally agree with you. I'm not even running heroics. My 29 Paladin tank has experience in all these issues. I just have a little more of a buffer as to when the dps dies at low levels. If the healer's from my server, I just tell them to not heal DPS on bosses if they pull aggro. I especially laugh when they get caught in Arcanist Doan's Detonation.
Berend Jan 3rd 2010 9:02PM
I'm a tank, and I'm the one that likes to pull fast. I do look to see if my healer can handle it first and I always wait for the group to be in and buffed before pulling. It isn't only the healer and dps that gets bored you know. Tanking is fun but sometimes I just want to quickly run through and an instance or two for badges to buy a gem or BOA.
slartibart Jan 3rd 2010 9:22PM
You'd get a lot less vitriol if you'd stop 'wining' all the time Rossi.
gnomefayce Jan 3rd 2010 9:33PM
I understand your frustrations for sure. I've never rolled a tank before, but I've witnessed these things in heroics in the past, even pre-LFG system.
Even though your frustration is justified, there's another side to this situation. I have been in groups in which it was necessary to vanish/feint/tricks of the trade on every single pull while basically autoattacking the tank's target, both with very geared tanks and not so geared tanks. In the case of new tanks, I understand this. Everyone has to take time to learn their role. But with the remaining evidently exceptionally seasoned tanks, I can only assume one of two things: they're being extremely lazy, or honestly have never really learned how to fulfill their role.
In preparation for end game content, getting geared is easier than ever. Coupled with the GearScore addon, party members check out each others gear and figure, "This will be fast and easy, I can be as careless and reckless as I want." Tanks body pull, DPS spams AOE, healers go to the bathroom or go grab a snack. And then when there's a wipe, people go into holier than thou mode and blame each other, group falls apart. Worst case scenario, of course.
The other side to that is just as troubling. I've been in lots of groups with very adequately geared tanks and felt safe enough to open up a little, only to discover that their t9.5 and Trial of the Crusader gear was likely bought as an after thought with emblems or a result of an off-spec roll. If you don't have much experience with tanking, just let us know! More often than not, you will be met with patience and understanding. There is no excuse for dps (and I've even seen a few healers do this too) running ahead and pulling, but if we are doing our jobs correctly, we expect you to be doing yours as well.
Prissa Jan 3rd 2010 9:44PM
I don't think my battlegroup reads WoW.com :'(
Was tanking h uk yesterday. Dps DK is a powerhouse (you know the kind) most of the run is fine, I'm pulling with no gaps essentially, but we get to the outdoors part right before the last boss and he's running ahead trying to get more mobs, he actually deathgripped the mob I was tanking to him so that I would move further up. I just stood there and let him go. Once he was done I asked "am I tanking now? You can if you'd rather" And he did. He switched specs, changed gear and off he went. We did the last boss with 2 tanks (coz I don't have a dps spec) and at the end he says "If your healer isn't a loser pull more retard."
Can't say I was really impressed.
Meethan Jan 3rd 2010 9:47PM
Because I'm only a tank (a guildless one at that) I love the new LFG system in that I can be warped immediatly into an instance whenever I please. I can really feel for you though on the opposite side, because I do have a rogue. Though it can be hard and demanding with stupid, ungeared, or rude people in the random system, it's worked rather well for me.
Salem Jan 3rd 2010 10:22PM
Even tanking at low levels is a nightmare!!! (probably worse than at 80) The hunters have to be huntards and pull when the healer is getting mana, the healer doesn't understand he needs mana to heal, the paladin in healer gear is dpsing and needing on everything (leather, cloth, two handed weapons with agility on it) , and before you thunder clap the mage goes all-out aoe....
I just hope that people actually understand what this article is trying to tell them. (It doesn't even matter what level you are)
Itanius Jan 3rd 2010 10:28PM
Thanks for this article, Matthew. It was pure awesome, and clearly speaks the truth about the torture involved with tanking a 5-man PuG.
DareD Jan 3rd 2010 10:30PM
As a well geared rogue who is running DPS right there beside you, please tanks, keep one thing in mind.
If you turn the back of the mobs to the party, we'll do MORE DAMAGE! Seriously, when did this get forgotten? I'm next to my tank, stealthed away and ready to be his/her right hand man. Low and behold, they open their gambit and sit down and take their damage. Healers are healing, and we're all forced to open up. Seriously tanks, would it be so difficult to turn the mobs away?!? I'm stealthed, Tricks of the Traded up, poisons dripping, garotte jumping at the chance of decimating the mob that is hurting you and you're going to make me face him? You remember that whole thing about how neither you nor the mob can parry or dodge an attack from behind you right?
So from a math perspective, a mob isn't turned, I'm forced to stealth to its rear to open my game, and it takes me ~ 3 seconds more. I do 4.5K dps on the avg PUG. Do you want to sit there and take damage or do you want me to kill it?
So tanks everywhere, please do your friendly and loving DPS a favor. Turn the mobs away from us and everything will go a hell of a lot smoother and faster. We want to kill those crazy mobs that are assaulting you, we really do, so help us help you. Cause if you don't, they might turn on our sorry, squishy asses and we don't like that!!!
Itanius Jan 3rd 2010 10:37PM
On a single-target pull, I can see where it's easy to do that, and your request is certainly feasible.
Since patch 3.3 screwed up mob pathing, however, getting multiple mobs to turn around and stay together is fairly challenging. They always try to stand on top of you and it takes time away from using skills you need to be using to keep aggro on multiple mobs (which can be difficult as a prot warrior, btw).
So if there's more than one mob on the pull, and the tank doesn't turn the mob for you, go ahead and take the extra 2 seconds (which you should be giving the tank to get aggro anyways) and flank around the mob yourself.
DareD Jan 3rd 2010 10:53PM
Itanius, a fair and respectful response. As I also run a DK Tank as an alt, I certainly understand this. The mobs do get crazy pathing and controlling it is difficult to manage it with us crazy DPSers running around. None the less, 9 out of 10 tanks I see these days don't even bother to control the direction of the mobs they pull.
I make a distinct point of complimenting tanks when they properly face the mobs. It is something up there with DPS properly using our interrupts and CC. All apparently lost arts, and yet, all of which should be respected.
Tara Jan 3rd 2010 11:13PM
I agree with Itanius on this one. My Alliance main is a level 80 pally tank, and I often try to turn single mobs around for dps, to be helpful. (not like i'm doing much anyways once i've gotten aggro)
However, groups of mobs are more difficult. And to be honest, some of the bigger single mobs aren't easy to control either. Those patchwork golems in H UP, for instance, screw up with their pathing about as much as the vrykul groups do. So i've given up trying to turn those.
In the end though, it's not the tank's job to turn mobs for DPS. It's a nice gesture, and certainly a welcomed and appreciated one at that, but tanks are there to hold threat on mobs, not to do part of the DPS's job for them. It takes all of half a second to run around a mob (maybe two seconds if it's a big one), and as stated above, that gives tanks time to get more threat. No big deal.
Also, as a sidenote, many of the DPSers I run with always try to run behind the mobs i'm tanking, and usually end up spending another second or so re-positioning after they realize i've turned the mob. So it's not always helpful.
freeway8989 Jan 4th 2010 2:24AM
Yeah, I agree with Itanius as well.
I will instinctually turn a boss/single target mob away from the group. After all, they could potentially cause damage to all targets in front of them.
But I will move a group of mobs however I find most easiest to tank. I will try to stack them so that I can make sure I have aggro over every mob; so that my AoE's affect all of them; so that none are hitting me from behind and doing unavoidable damage. That's a lot to keep in mind while tanking, so I always expect dps to adapt to that.
Gx1080 Jan 3rd 2010 10:51PM
I don't have a problem in letting face-pulling morons die. The problem is that the healer usually heal their sorry asses (never understood why) and then I have to go anyways so the healer don't get face down.
Also, you are perfectly capable to be behind the mobs by yourself. Those 3 seconds of walking around them aren't a big deal. I apologize for interrupting your session of facerolling.
One last thing: Why people hate HoS?. Occulus, I know that is because reading tooltips of 3 abilities and listening instrucuions is too difficult for mouth-breathers. And that people hate vehicle fights (also, never understood why, just did Flame Leviathan with the guild and it was awesome) But HoS is fun. Tribunal of Ages is a "OMG, there's a shitload of them" on the edge fight. And you get Brann Bronzebeard.
Hubuly Jan 4th 2010 12:45AM
yeah instead of HoS it seems to be HoL in my pugs, I've been in that place a million times never with any trouble but seems like people always drop group for it
freeway8989 Jan 4th 2010 2:30AM
The Occulus is ok to a certain extent. It's just a problem when people don't listen.
And I find HoS very boring and annoying. I don't like tribunal because tanking so many mobs one after the other can get stressful. I know at this gear level, it isn't a problem. But still, when it comes to heroics, I prefer single target bosses for the simplicity.
Hiwa Jan 3rd 2010 10:56PM
Well for starters I have a well-geared 80 resto druid. No problems with her--I can handle just about any nonsense a tank or dps can dish out. BUT my 58 resto druid--the stories I could tell!
If fact I'll tell one right now. Ended up doing Dire Maul about 15 times today. Time #8 I had 3 pallies plus myself plus a very quiet mage. Now one of the pallies was the designated tank. Another pally was ret. And the 3rd pally was also ret--but refused to take off righteous fury 'because it helps my dps!"
Tank yells at her to take it off. She refuses. Other pally yells for her to take it off. She refuses. I yell at her to take it off. She still refuses. I explain to her (why am I explaining things to this pally who should already know this?) that righteous fury increases her threat, thus pulling aggro from the tank. Yet another refusal. So I refused to heal her. At first she kept herself alive. Finally though she inevitably died and yelled at me. 'RES ME!" "Are you gonna take off righteous fury?" "Yes, yes, I'll take it off!"
So she did, and I ressed her, and she promptly quit group.
That was my day. It's not all speed runs for frost emblems and glory. Sometimes it's a big old muddle through for run tun tubers and runecloth.
Kylenne Jan 4th 2010 12:54AM
As someone whose Disc/Shadow alt just hit level 52 today, I will agree that low level pugs are their own special kind of hell for tanks and healers. I'm new to healing after being DPS for my entire WoW career, and this is like baptism by fire. On the plus side, I am having to be on my toes by necessity, and will probably be a damn good healer by the time I get to 80. On the minus side, I may be so burned out from all this that I may just leave this toon as vellum factory by then.