Encrypted Text: Knowing your stats

Have you ever had a problem finding a group as a rogue? My own rogue isn't immune to this issue, and I sometimes find myself without a raid group on a Saturday night. The rogue population has been steadily growing since its sharp decline right after the launch of Wrath, and that means increased competition for the coveted melee DPS raid slots. With the plentiful bounty of Death Knights and Ret Paladins vying for the three different two-hand weapons that drop from just the first 4 bosses of ICC10 and ICC25, it can be tough finding your place.
However, with hard work and good performance, most raid leaders will see the value in bringing back quality DPS. To ensure that you're on the reinvite list, doing as much damage as possible will leave the most tangible evidence of your efforts (as well as being your overarching goal). Sometimes this means doing more with less, and using the gear you have to its highest potential before you're able to reap the benefits of the great 251/264 epics that you're working towards.
Your rotation:
Due to the uneven scaling of every ability (as no ability functions exactly the same as another), it's truly impossible to know what the best rotation for any given rogue may be. Each case must be examined individually to see if the stats are above or below certain 'decision thresholds'. This has been evident as we see Combat rogues nearing the armor penetration soft cap dropping Rupture from their rotation, as well as Mutilate rogues dropping Rupture to bring about higher Envenom buff uptime. The fact is that without the proper gear to support armor penetration, dropping Rupture from your rotation may very well be a DPS loss.
A rogue-playing friend of mine recently reactivated his account, and is sporting 4/5 Tier 8 with nearly no armor penetration on his gear and agility gems in every slot. He had been reading on Elitist Jerks that Ruptureless was the new favorite rotation and whether or not he should take his points out of Blood Spatter and Relentless Strikes. I worked with him to explain that due to his particular gear setup, agility and rupture were more valuable to him than a rogue in full ArP gear with an ArP proc trinket. What's good for one rogue may not be good for another, and so knowing which stats benefit you the most will ensure you make intelligent gear choices.
Haste:
For rogues, haste is essentially a split between a white/poison damage boost and an energy regeneration bonus. Haste gives you more white swings, which in turn gives you more poison procs, making it very valuable for Mutilate's poison-centric damage model. It also yields more Focused Attacks and Combat Potency procs, making it the only stat to boost your energy production. Because both Combat and Mutilate value energy in different ways, there is again a difference in value for each spec.
It's not a bad stat for either, but Mutilate typically sees the greater benefit from energy-based attacks. On a recent Saurfang fight in ICC25, my Combat rogue had about 26% of his damage coming from energy-based attacks (Sinister Strike and Eviscerate), while a similarly-geared Mutilate rogue saw 30% of his damage from Mutilate mixed with Envenom, which did not include the bonus Instant / Deadly procs he saw from the Envenom buff. I won't shy away from haste, and I recently purchased the Herkuml War Token, but I also realize that haste is not my 'favorite' stat.
Armor Penetration:
Armor Penetration can be a confusing stat, because its value rises as you stack more and more of it. The damage bonus you see when moving from 5% to 10% ArP is nowhere near the damage bonus you see when you move from 95% to 100%. Due to this scaling mechanic, you almost want to avoid Armor Penetration on your gear until you have a gear set which would bring you close to the soft cap (including an Armor Pen trinket), and then switch all of your gems at once.
In addition, Combat sees a much higher gain from Armor Penetration than Mutilate can expect. My Combat rogue deals about 70% physical damage, meaning 70% of everything I do is affected by Armor Penetration. A Mutilate rogue, on the other hand, will only see about 45% of their damage coming from melee attacks. Because Armor Penetration benefits a Combat rogue, they are also more likely to have a higher ArP value, further pushing ArP towards Combat and away from the Haste-loving Mutilate builds.
One trinket to rule them all:
Enter Deathbringer's Will, which is the very fun trinket that Saurfang25 drops if you can topple him. With 155 Armor Penetration on the trinket as a passive boost, Combat Rogues (along with Blood Death Knights, Warriors, Feral Druids, and Marksman Hunters) will be salivating immediately. Every once in a while you'll have a brain-dead Ret paladin (is that redundant?) try rolling on it, which should be quickly squashed by the true physical DPS classes quickly.
Clearly it benefits a Combat rogue's 70% physical damage more than a Mutilate rogue who would see it affect less than half his damage, but it even gets worse. The random procs are different based on the class you're playing, and for Rogues, ArP is one of the possible options. An ArP passive with a possible ArP proc is not very valuable to a Mutilate rogue at all, while it's Combat rogue Heaven. The other two rogue procs, AP and Agility, are fairly vanilla and are great for both specs (as long as the Mutilate rogue is avoiding the crit cap).
It was discovered that Death Knights actually receive different procs based on their spec. A Blood DK, which does largely physical damage, scores ArP from the proc. An Unholy DK, who's damage is mostly magical, gains the better stat for Unholy: Haste. Why doesn't it work this way for Mutilate? Haste for Mutilate and Armor Penetration for Combat would be the best of both worlds, even if the passive boost is slightly lackluster for a Mutilate build. This idea was brought up on the Damage Dealing role forums, and apparently is actually going to be looked at and possible revised!
Conclusion:
Knowing which stats are valuable to your class AND spec, and knowing how to balance those stats around caps and minimums becomes a large part of a raiding rogue's required knowledge. You're not alone in this, every rogue will struggle with this at some point in their lifetime. Consult a spreadsheet first for guidance, make decisions based on your gear on hand instead of what works for the best geared rogues in the game. Especially for the rogues who are just starting at 80: make sure you're looking at what's best for YOU instead of a general plan for every rogue. Knowing what you're doing at every gearing level will provide you with the best damage results you can achieve, which is like an upgrade in itself!
Filed under: Rogue, Guides, Classes, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Kragragh Jan 6th 2010 3:06PM
I've run enough heroics since 3.3 to earn maybe...250 EoTs and I never got grouped with another rogue. Ever. And, I didn't realize it for a couple weeks...but we're talking like 40 or so heroic runs. Weird.
I'm not complaining at all though!!
Hendrata Jan 6th 2010 3:13PM
I think someone mentioned that the system (dungeon finder) purposely avoids to group you with another person of your class, unless you're really the last person in the queue.
This post almost never makes me want to level my level 61 rogue. So you get an upgrade, like 26 ilevels higher, and suddenly your rotation changes, and your enchants and gemming for the other gears change, etc. Wow....
SamLowry Jan 6th 2010 3:29PM
But the Dungeon Finder has also inspired me to all but give up on my rogue. Though she's wearing blues and the occasional crafted purple, her dps barely reaches 1k. As a result, she's received lots of insults and was once kicked out of a group after doing absolutely nothing wrong. Sure, I suppose she could grind random normal instances, yet even the best gear drops are hardly any better than what she's already wearing.
She has all her points in Assassination, if that makes any difference.
Lasher Jan 6th 2010 3:32PM
I'm fairly certain you're doing something wrong. You did under 1000 dps in low-mid level epics at level 70, so I can't really see how that could happen at level 80.
Beruza Jan 6th 2010 3:35PM
@ Hendrata
You make an interesting point, and got me thinking. I think you are right for pure classes. I don't think i have ever seen 2 rogues, 2 hunters, 2 warlocks, or 2 mages in a group. I have seen 2 shamans 2 druids, and 2 paladins though (a few times) but never both being dps.
Ryan Jan 6th 2010 3:36PM
"She has all her points in Assassination, if that makes any difference."
i lol'd
:(
Shardrell Jan 6th 2010 3:40PM
@Hendrata, yes, it's a huge pain if you want to stay competitive as a rogue. Even minor changes to the class such as found in the 3.3 patch can drastically change things, and if you're not paying attention and keeping up you'll find yourself falling behind the other DPS in your raids.
I'm annoyed that right now my DPS seems to depend more on the things I do outside of the fight (gear selection, talent tweaks, glyph tweaks, using the current most effective poisons, etc.) than it does on the things I actually do during the fight. I want to be valued as a rogue because I play my class well, not because I pored over various websites after the latest patch and stuck my numbers into a spreadsheet because the numbers for good performance have become so convoluted.
SamLowry Jan 6th 2010 3:39PM
I've only used Recount for a few months so I have no idea what I was doing at 70, but considering my gear is so much better now than then I have to assume it was much less than 1k. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else.
SamLowry Jan 6th 2010 3:40PM
So is there a problem with Assassination? If so, let me know.
Tamednan Jan 6th 2010 3:55PM
The problem is with putting all your points in 1 tree.
But I don't play a rogue, so I could be waaaay off.
spec help:
http://www.wowpopular.com/Rogue
Scott Jan 6th 2010 3:58PM
@SamLowry
There's not a problem with the Assassination tree per se, but putting all your points into one tree w/out delving out a few points to the other two trees limits oneself. All-in-all, if you have a bunch of ArP and decent swords, stick with Combat. If by chance you have some nice dags, a ton of haste (my OH speed is now 0.94), and stack some AP to increase overall dmg you'll see where the Assassination spec pays off.
Lasher Jan 6th 2010 4:04PM
@SamLowry - by " you " I don't mean YOU, I mean characters in the game, in general.
scherbaddie Jan 6th 2010 5:07PM
@Shardrell
So you want to completely ignore a huge change for your class that was mentioned in the patch notes you should have been reading while the patch was installing, and still do optimal dps? GL with that. You should be grateful you have a spreadsheet available and constantly updated, that will tell you exactly which stats on your gear will give you the most benefit; not all classes are so lucky.
Or you can keep on gemming for agi and crit, running double WP with your head in the sand. Makes no difference to me.
f03 h4mm3r Jan 6th 2010 11:50PM
@ SamLowry
At lvl 60 I ended up dual spec'd as Muti and Combat. So that I could bounce back and forth between the 2 and find out what I liked better. I have the heirloom shoulders and chest and both PVP and PVE daggers. I use a Fist weapon and the PVE dagger in Combat and with my current rotation get an average 1K DPS at lvl 70. Using both these daggers in Muti spec gets me around 700 DPS. This is overall damage (start of dungeon to end). If i were to go up against just one boss, Muti always gets me more DPS. The combat spec (for right now) gets me more DPS from the start of the dungeon to the end because of Killing spree and Blade Furry+Adren Rush. It's the only AoE-like attacks i have until FoKs. So it works better against groups. Muti doesn't have these AoE-like attacks (at lvl 70) and ends up doing better against one-on-one fights (bosses, or high HP mobs). I think you might benefit from dual spec so that you can change according to the gear you come across for optimal DPS output. I will sometime (time permitting) change from combat to mutilate before the boss fights to get better DPS. Hope this helps.
AdamD021 Jan 6th 2010 3:13PM
I just picked up DW as combat and it is absolutely ridiculous.
I also saw something in regards to a change to DW. They said that classes that can easily reach the armor pen cap may not benefit from the armor pen buff. This leads me to believe that they may remove the armor pen buff completely from rogues. I had to change 2 arm pen gems out to drop below the 800 armor pen soft cap. I could easily regem and get very close to the hard cap since I think I only have 2 arm pen gems equipped.
Either way I'll be happy
Lasher Jan 6th 2010 3:13PM
Had the exact same problem with my rotation with what I read on EJ. I respecced to a ruptureless build, having very little arpen ( EJ didn't mention arpen at all in the 3.3 FAQ, as opposed to the 3.2 one where it was ) and my dps dropped considerably. So, at least for now, I'll have to stick to my T8 set and a rupture build.
scherbaddie Jan 6th 2010 4:59PM
did you read the 4 piece bonus on T8? it's pretty obviously you shouldn't drop rupture if you still have it
Lasher Jan 6th 2010 5:03PM
I also have 3 pieces of T9 ilvl 245 gear that I could have used instead.
Stilhelm Jan 6th 2010 3:41PM
Mutilate can be boring to play in heroics. It amounts largely to autoattack something and spam FoK as much as possible. Also, if you have all 71 points in Assassination, you are definitely doing it wrong. Some reading on Elitist Jerks should point you to a reasonable build. At lower gear levels, I'd expect something like 51/13/7 if you want to stay assassination, or 15/51/5 for combat.
Captn Obvious Jan 6th 2010 7:01PM
I don't think Mutilate is boring per se, but I think that due to the ramp up of applying a bleed -> HfB -> S'n'D -> envenoms, you will only rarely have a chance to actually get a steady envenom rotation going as the target (trash or boss) will be dead already. Which is perhaps why you say it's largely autoattack/fok.
This is to be expected when you overgear an instance I guess.
I think Mutilate would be just as boring as any other spec when you overgear an instance and don't have time or need to get into a steady-state rotation.