Drama Mamas: Dungeon Finder loot advice
by Robin Torres 
Jan 8th 2010 at 9:00AM
Yes, we're going to go on about the Dungeon Finder again this week. This time it isn't about Gearscore or DPS, but about the loot issues that have cropped up. The thing about cross-realm PuGs is that you may never see your fellow dungeon runners again. Or when you do, you may forget that you have -- unless you meticulously document all ne'er-do-wells by hand. Blizzard attempted to mitigate some of the issues they knew would arise by changing the Need Before Greed loot rules and requiring it for random dungeon rewards. But you're still going to get players working the system in order to line their pockets as well as upgrade their gear. And they aren't worried about their reputations Battlegroup-wide. At the same time, many people are expecting their fellow PuGgers to abide by loot rules designed to better a guild as a whole rather than a random crew of strangers.
This week we are tackling two letters as well as concerns from other sources in an effort to provide a solution for the Dungeon Finder loot drama:
Hi Drama Mamas: Recently, I was fortunate to get the battered hilt quest and upon completion, got my level 251 sword. A few days later, I was in a PuG group running the Pit of Saron and the group wanted to farm all the trash in hopes of getting the Battered Hilt quest. The group then informed me that I should not roll for the quest if it dropped because I already had the sword. I disagreed but said that I wouldn't roll if it dropped. It didn't drop that time.
My question is that, if I am helping farm the trash, why shouldn't I have the chance to get the quest again? On my server, I have seen the quest advertised for 17,000 in the AH. I know I have the sword, but if I am contributing equally to the group's success, shouldn't I be allowed to roll for it too? Am I being selfish? Please let me know. Signed, FleataDear Drama Mamas: With all the talk about bad PuGs and the Dungeon Finder it reminded me of an incident I had in a recent random heroic. I raid as a moonkin druid, but also have a good tanking set and a bear offspec. So when I run randoms, I will queue as both DPS and tank. With the shortage of tanks, that is the role I am always asked to play in the random. Since the release of 3.3, I've been running Pit of Saron almost every day for a chance at Nevermelting Ice Crystal, the caster trinket off the last boss, for my moonkin gear. The other night, it drops for me for the first time and I roll Need, the mage in the group also Needs it. When I win the roll, he starts to freak out -- calling me a ninja and telling me I have no right to roll on DPS stuff as a tank when a DPS needs it and continues to insult me. I was unsure of how to respond to him and since the run was over and the other members had started to leave the group, I left as well with out saying anything at all to the mage.
Loot seems to be a major cause for drama but randoms don't seem to have any set rules. I know before the Dungeon Finder, typically rules for PuG raids were main spec before off spec and whatever spec you were playing in the raid counted as your main spec. What is the etiquette for random PuG loot? When the interface picks your role, should that determine the loot you have a right to? When tanking, should I only need roll on DPS items when no one else in the group wants them? If there are caster items I want, should I only go to runs as moonkin? What should I have done in this situation with the mage? Thanks for the insight, Scared to go Bear.
Drama Mama Robin: Fleata and Scared to go Bear are just two of the letters that have come across the Drama Mamas' virtual desk regarding Dungeon Finder loot drama. I've also heard quite a bit of kvetching in guild regarding people rolling Need on gear they won't actually use. And don't even get The Spousal Unit started on Frozen Orbs. With the established practice being to Greed on them, ninjas are able to Need and run.
Personally, I think that random dungeons are the perfect place to outfit your offspecs -- and that particularly applies to the tanks and healers who are making your LFG waits shorter. I also think that it is asking a bit much to require someone to pass on an item that is worth 15+K gold, regardless of previous lucky rolls. But while I think that people who Need on gear that they are just planning to shard or sell are being inconsiderate, 5-mans are so speedy these days that you are likely to have another chance at the same gear in the very near future.
One of my favorite bloggers, Joe the Peacock, recently said something profound (in a post with NSFW language): trust is something we have total control over. If we choose to trust a stranger, we are deciding to give up some of that control. I say that the solution to PuG looting issues is to not allow the ninjas and greedy-needers to control the situation. So here is my suggestion in three simple steps:
- Communicate: State your loot intentions at the very beginning of the dungeon. I know many PuGgers are hacking at mobs before all of their teammates have zoned in, but try to make yourself heard over the sounds of battle.
- Need everything you can: I know this sounds super greedy; but if it's agreed on at the outset that everyone will be doing it, you won't be doing anything shady. You won't have to worry about the tank being able to take your cloth gear anyway. And this way the ninjas don't win with the Frozen Orb rolls at the end. Also, it will speed up the run considerably since there will be no thinking involved whenever the loot decision box appears.
- Relax and move on to the next dungeon: Don't dwell on the gear that Ubergearedpally won or the purple BoE that is going straight to the AH. Just go with the flow and hope your luck is better in the next run.
If you really want a drop that you have been unable to get in multiple runs, then just do what you used to do before Patch 3.3: get a group of friends together to run the instance until you get it. And, of course, the above suggestion only applies to random PuGs. Single-realm, pre-formed groups should still stick to the established loot procedures, agreed upon at the outset. I wish you all fortuitous random number generation.
Drama Mama Lisa: Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am – yes, Dungeon Finder runs are that fast, and yes, other players look at you as just another hole in their loot pinatas. The Drama Mamas continue with all due diligence to encourage respectful, friendly interaction among groupmates, but of course, there's no guarantee that some heathens will attain even basic standards of civility. Robin has the right idea: while you may be quite used to rolling Greed or even master looting and /rolling for certain items that everyone can benefit from, when in the Dungeon Finder, do as the Dungeon Finders do.
We think it best, therefore, to gird yourself at takeoff and brace for some rough landings:
Good afternoon and welcome to Air Dungeon Finder. Please return your seat backs to the full upright position, latch all table trays and ensure that your seat belts are fastened. We encourage you to place loot orders prior to takeoff; orders not placed until service is in progress may not be processed. Press the "Need" button for immediate, courteous assistance. In today's PUG market, we recognize that you have a choice; we appreciate your choosing ADF and hope that our automated systems make your PUG experience a more pleasant one. Again, we wish you a fruitful and entertaining flight, and thank you for flying Air Dungeon Finder.
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, WoW Social Conventions, Virtual selves, Instances, Features, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 9)
biglou Jan 8th 2010 9:07AM
Pugger has the battered hilt item and still wants to roll on it..srsly? If I saw someone with it rolling on it again and nobody else had it I would kick him. If he wanted the $$$ he should have sold the first one he got!!
Deepfriedegg Jan 8th 2010 9:23AM
just tell me why would you forbid someone to roll on a item that he spent +15K gold on? You had exactly the same opportunity to buy it on AH as the other person had. Where from comes your exclusivity to this item???
On another note: I have run FoS heroic more than 20 times because of Needle-Encrusted Scorpion. I know this is quite a good trinket and lot of physical DPS run this instance only because of this trinket, like me so I am aware that 2-3 people will roll on it. Well... I saw it drop 4 times - once won by rogue, once by druid healer and last two days tanks won it (yesterday it was only healer - priest - who didnt roll on it). You can imagine my frustration... :)
Brondorf Jan 8th 2010 9:31AM
Really?
If you had the option of rolling on another hilt you would turn it down? What about the classes that can duel wield? Are they allowed to roll again? Ive never seen one drop mind you so i dont know if you can do the quest line twice but still. Would take a better person than most of us to pass on the chance to make 15K or have 2 of the weapons.
PistolPeet Jan 8th 2010 9:30AM
I don't think this is quite so cut & dried. If the hilt had dropped just on a normal run then fine, Fleata should pass. If you're helping them farm all of the trash for the hilt then, imo, you get a shot at it. Although, of course, this should be clearly communicated beforehand and if the group can't all agree then drop the group and find another.
Seaborn Jan 8th 2010 9:34AM
Lou
Yea your comment is way off base. Basically it shows you are one of the problems out there.
Grapes Jan 8th 2010 9:40AM
I thought it wouldn't let you roll for the hilt if you already completed the quest. Anyone?
Plagueis Jan 8th 2010 9:42AM
1. In regards to Frozen Orbs: They don't auction for very much anymore, barely above vendor price because so many have been introduced into the market since, not just 3.3. On my battlegroup, it seems typical to greed them because they aren't overly valuable, although on rare occasions some still roll need on it. It'd be pretty petty to get upset over 5g.
2. Battered Hilt. I have seen many drop. I have never won a roll. I'm incredibly Frustrated. Yet, what can I do? Be mad about it? Sure, it's disappointing, but it's rare, and since it can be sold, I at least have that option to buy one should I become desperate enough to spend a fortune on one. Imagine you have multiple level 80s, and perhaps you frequently play more than one of them. Maybe you're crazy enough to want a Quel'delar for more than one of them. Who's to say they don't deserve a chance at the lottery, especially if you don't know how they got the one they have equipped? If people are going to get unruly over it, it'll just encourage people to come to the Frozen Halls dungeons with a different weapon equipped. There's too many variables involved, and too much at stake in the current situation.
Ziberious Jan 8th 2010 9:43AM
I agree? I'm the only one? God, I think it's incredibly rude to take away a great sword/mace from a class that needs it. And you're selling it for money? And you already had it before? I wouldn't roll Need. Greed but not need. And I'm being completely honest.
And why are people saying he's part of the problem? If anything I'd think you're part of the problem. Yeah, let's screw over people who actually need the drop and we can just need and sell it on the auction house! Yay!
dawnseven Jan 8th 2010 10:04AM
@Zib
While I don't disagree that it kinda sucks to the lose the hilt so someone can make a buck, its waaaaaay more than a buck. 15K is epic flying for 3 alts. I'm sorry, but that's too much pass up. Additionally, maybe its not to make a buck. I've been farming to help guildies find the hilt. If I was in a random pug group and it dropped I'd totally roll on it to give it to a guildmate, or send it to an alt for that matter. My time is just as valuable to me as everyone else's is to them. Why should I pass on a hilt so some dude on another server can have it? How do I know HE (or she) doesn't already have it on one of their other toons? If the RNG smiles on you it does, and if it doesn't it doesn't.
jrizutko Jan 8th 2010 11:00AM
@Zib,
Equal pay for equal work. If someone is a contributing member to the group, denying them the right to roll on something that is valuable to them is patently unfair. No one NEEDSOMFG Quel'delar to play wow. Its a cool item and quest, but if you're desperate enough to elbow people out of the way to get it, there's a problem.
I don't have it on any of my toons, yet somehow, I manage to Heal, Tank and DPS at a high level. If I get one, I'll be psyched. If I don't, I'll continue to get my share of other cool stuff.
Ronin Jan 8th 2010 10:39AM
So wait-- because it's worth a lot of money, it's OK to roll "Need" when you don't need it? Um, I'm pretty sure that's where Greed comes in. You're greedy and willing to take a second one even though others don't have their first, right?
Unfortunately, the Drama Mamas seem to be saying that, since other people will abuse the ability to roll "Need" when they should roll "Greed", the solution is for EVERYBODY to abuse it. If everyone's a Ninja, then no one can be a Ninja, I guess. It's sad that it's come to that.
WoWie Zowie Jan 8th 2010 10:59AM
i definitely agree with biglou here. if you want to talk about civility, the "right" thing to do would be to give it to someone who does not yet have the sword (or mace). the hilt is the #1 best weapon for any casual player. if you wanted to sell it on AH, you should have done so with your first one. no double dipping please.
now devil's advocate: he said the group went out of their way to farm unnecessary trash for it. this literally wastes his time, because he has nothing to gain from it if he passes it.
so this comes down to not whether or not he should roll for the hilt (which he shouldn't) but whether or not he should be made to waste his time farming with others.
and this is the very definition of PUG. sometimes you have a fast PUG and sometimes your tank or healer or whatnot takes extra time. thats the break and the chance you take when you sign up, and having the group farm extra trash is just 1 more potential barrier to a fast run vs a slow run. but please for light's sake don't roll on it if you already have it, even if you may be entitled to. its not nice.
Bronwyn Jan 8th 2010 11:56AM
The problem is, to everyone who's talking about taking an upgrade away from someone who *needs* it, is that you don't know for sure that person isn't going to take the hilt and sell it, either.
Truth of the matter is, even though I will feel guilty for it, if I am in a PuG and a hilt drops, I will roll need, regardless of which character I am on. If I get kicked from the group because I rolled need with my mage who already has the sword, so be it. If it were my guild, or a group of friends, that would be a different story; I know what their intentions are, and I know they don't plan to just take it to the AH to make a buck. But I have no way of knowing that in a PuG. And it's not like I can't use it; I have alts. I have friends who I could send it to. I'm putting time into this PuG and if it drops I want a chance at it.
No, it's probably not the most honorable thing to do. It's definitely not "right" in my opinion, but it's the most practical thing to do and I suspect what you'll see happen over and over again.
Fierna Jan 8th 2010 12:17PM
Just bought the hilt myself last night and I wondered... what do I do if it ever drops? Wouldn't it be crazily lame to get the hilt and sell it? But on the other hand how am I to know they aren't going to sell it themselves?
It's a toughie.
BubblePriest Jan 8th 2010 1:01PM
I used to feel this way... but then I realized if we try to make sure that the people who need it most get it it will simply be abused. It's most fair to all need so that everyone has an equal chance at it when it drops, rather than setting up a system where the more shady players will simply roll on it every time and sell it (or not equip the one they already have when they queue for the dungeon).
I still believe Blizzard should have made it BoP, but since they didn't the best solution is to all roll Need. This should, however, be communicated at the beginning. If a group protests, keep in mind some of those protesters are people who simply want a better chance of winning 15k gold.
Bob Dewane Jan 8th 2010 1:26PM
Who's to say that the others in the group don't already have it, as well. A friend of mine has QD, but when he farms the ICC 5 mans he equips another weapon so that he can roll on the hilt again without catching any flack. He doesn't want it to sell...he wants it for his alts. Why should this guy pass just because he already has it? He's contributing to the effort that is producing the hilt the same as the others. There's no guarantee that the others in the group don't already have the hilt. There's no guarantee that the others in the group won't take the hilt and sell it. If the hilt drops...EVERYONE ROLLS NEED!
Angus Jan 8th 2010 1:36PM
I love people saying "roll greed:
As if that meant they would EVER have the option of getting it.
Sorry, that's the same as passing on it.
If they want to farm trash and you already have it you lay it out.
"Either I roll need as well, or we don't farm trash. I paid 10K for this sword, I don't see why you guys should automatically get it if I help. I can sell it for 10K and make my money back, as can any of you. You had the same option to buy it."
It also helps to be the healer or tank as they will shut up and not kick you.
BoE is essentially anyone's game for needing it, since they are out there on the AH and people can get them that way. Acting as if a nice Epic weapon somehow entitles you to make someone else do something you want so you can get it and they can't is BS.
orlochavez Jan 8th 2010 2:20PM
I already have the QD mace on my priest (my main). I won it legit in a PoS group with guildies. I have 4 other 80's and none of them are sporting ilvl 251 or higher weaps. If I'm on my priest healing a run (in which I need zero loot) for (most likely) other people's (usually undergeared) alts, why should I forgo a chance at a great new weap for one of my toons just because I'm carrying someone else's alt through a run?
By this logic, your tank should never roll on the hilt because there's no QD tank weap. They can't "use" it right?
videvekartuspaan Jan 8th 2010 5:55PM
well, I am pretty much only ever tanking, as such the battered hilt is pretty useless to me. Yet in pugs, I still clear all the trash. Why? Civility.
Ianator Jan 8th 2010 6:13PM
Personally, I think that if people in the group could use the sword for an upgrade, that comes before people wanting to make some $$$. But if it would not be an upgrade for anyone, everyone should get to roll.