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1-10-2010 @ 2:17PM
Too bad everyone is so uptight about who they invite to ICC these days, well at least on my server. It might be awhile for me to see this event. I don't mind too much. We still have another what, 6 months before the next instance comes out?
1-10-2010 @ 2:26PM
By uptight, do you mean they require you to have good gear? On my realm most groups require the equivalent of 5k GS, which really is not difficult to achieve. My hunter has run ToC 25 twice and ToC 10 twice, and all my other gear is from emblems of triumph or the new heroics. His gearscore is just under 5k, and that is with the blue trinket I still have.I was in the sloppiest PuG I've ever seen last night and we still managed to clear up to Saurfang with just one wipe.Gear is incredibly easy to get if you try.
1-10-2010 @ 2:56PM
@reps, GS should never, ever, be a requirement for any type of raid or heroic. Granted you don't want people who have a bulk of ilvl 200 in your raids. But, I hate seeing "LFM ToC 25 plz have GS of 5k! PST with ACH!!!".@weirdjedi, if you really want to get into ICC, try using the recruitment forums on the official site and see who is recruiting. It's a lot easier to get into a guild that's already making progression into ICC than trying to get into a pug that's probably going to fail on LM any way.
1-10-2010 @ 3:21PM
I have noticed a trend that if you're not able to do the fights in the first weeks, you will never get an invite due to everyone insisting on achievements. Gear score doesn't really seem to come into it that much.Of course, if people actually allowed those who don't have achievements to get them, then there would be more people around who know the fights, and pugs would be a much happier affair. As wonderful as achievements are, it does seem to be a double edged sword as it penalizes the casual player, or those not in a raiding guild.
1-10-2010 @ 3:24PM
I don't understand how anybody can have a 5k gear score. I've never seen anything higher than 2900 on wow-heroes.The math doesn't even work out. There are 13 "real" inventory slots (not counting the shirt slot); 5000/13 comes out to an item of itemlevel 385 in each slot. There is no such thing as ilevel 385 gear. I gather that you guys are calculating gear score by some other equation than how we do it on Borean Tundra, can you explain?
1-10-2010 @ 3:36PM
@chetThere is this incredibad addon called gearscore. I don't know how it calculates the score but roughly ilvl 245 in each slot is more or less 5k. People use it to quantify how good a player is ...
1-10-2010 @ 4:43PM
Gear Score is an excellent addon. It allows you to assess how good someone's gear is at a glance. Gear Score is not a measure of how good a player is. It is a measure of how high the ilevels of a player's gear are. Gear does not equal skill, but skill without gear means very little too.Generally to see if a person has the minimum skill to complete an encounter they ask for the achievement as well.Gear Score is only good for at-a-glance appraisals. It can be abused. I've seen people just put on the highest ilevel gear they have on that's not appropriate for their role (tanking gear on a dps, etc.) to inflate their gear score.
1-10-2010 @ 6:09PM
Good Lord. I mention the word Gearscore and everybody goes flying off the walls downranking comments.@agentbuckwald187I would be elated if you could show me one group that has successfully downed the first four bosses if ICC 25 wearing Ulduar level gear.To say gear should not be a requirement for a raid is simply the most absurd statement I have heard. The only thing more important in raiding than skill is gear. It doesn't matter if you are the best player who has ever had the opportunity to play World of Warcraft. If your gear is not up to par, you will not have a chance at clearing ICC 25. The first boss of the Plaguewerks requires an average of 7.4k dps for all dps classes. If the majority of your gear is not at least ilevel 232, your PuG does not have a chance in hell of clearing the place.If the majority of a player's gear is from ToC, that player's Gearscore will be around 5k. That is a fact. There is no refuting it. When I say (and this is my exact quote) "most groups require the equivalent of 5k GS", this means that if your gear is not mostly around ToC 10 level, you will not be allowed in.It is apparent the basic conflict about the Gearcsore addon escapes you, so I will outline it here.Throughout the history of the WotLK expansion, pugging has been undeniably easier due to the decreased difficulty of raids and Blizzard's new "Content for All" notion. This means that whereas in the Burning Crusade expansion most raids required a well geared, experienced guild to clear content, it is now possible to find PuG that can clear raids with relative ease (note: relative). This has lead players to develop ways of quantifying other players' ability to preform at the needed level in the only way possible: Gear and Achievements. It is simply not possible to screen PuG players beforehand with detailed interviews on their playstyle, or to asses each individual player via training dummy before inviting. This has lead to the production of websites which allow players to quickly identify whether a player meets these requirements (eg Wow-Heroes, Imba, etc). These websites, however, required a player to navigate to pages outside of the game. Around this time somebody had the idea of creating an addon which allowed quick evaluation of a player in ways similar to existing gearcheck websites.Enter Gearscore.With this addon, players are much easily able to check to see if a player meets the standards for the raid they are trying to enter. And this addon does a great job at what it is designed to do, which is look at a player's gear, and inform whoever is checking that player whether or not he is suited for the group via a number 1-6000+. The problem with this method of screening players however, has very deep roots. This was a problem in BC. This was a problem in Vanilla. This was a problem in EQ. This has been a problem since the first MMORPG was ever released. The problem is that skill does not equal gear.People look at the number provided by Gearscore that is associated with that player's gear and say either "Oh, that person has good gear and will do well." Or "Oh, that person has bad gear and will do poorly." And this conclusion is not unfounded. Speaking from a general sense, as a player's gear improves, as does his ability to preform. But there are exceptions. Everybody knows that player who is wearing all purple gear from Ulduar or ToC raids, but somehow manages to pull 3k dps. People might get a little upset that he isn't pulling his own weight, and that other players are "carrying him" through the content. But the effort required to explain to this guy why he is being removed from the raid, and then find another dps to replace him simply is not worth it. And everybody knows that other player. The one who somehow manages to pull 6k dps in nothing but Ulduar level loot. Everybody aspires to be this player, but chances are he is playing on an expensive rig with near-zero latency, and all the time in the world to research his class, and decide if he should put red gem 1 in blue socket 2 or to meet the socket activation requirement. But not everybody can be that person. And people would be angry that they were turned down for ToC 25 because their gear is below what is generally required for substantial dps output, when at the same time they can pull more dps than may of the people in the raid. And that was the first reason people began to dislike gearscore. People would say "Hey, I can do more dps that that nobody you invited to the raid, but I didn't get an invite because Gearscore said I wasn't good enough!" This is the pitfall of this addon, and nearly any system that ranks players based on their gear. And as long as gear is the way in which we judge a player, this outcome will be the same. There is another reason Gearscore has become despised though.As the current expansion progressed, as did gear inflation. The time the Gearscore addon really caught around patch 3.2. And 3.2 gear was at the level that Blizzard had originally intended to itemize ICC gear for. At point, many people had alts that were dinging 80, and they wished to begin to gear up for raiding. They would see a Naxx 10 run forming up, and would quickly jump on their alt and PST the person recruiting. And then it happened. "No, you can't come on this run. You're not geared enough and we don't want to carry you. You need at least 4k Gearscore". WHAT?? You can't even get 4k Gearscore from Naxx loot!! As people geared up, this pattern extended to higher level raids. "No, you can't come to Ulduar. You don't have the gear for it". But the majority of my gear is FROM Ulduar! How am I incapable of running it? Eventually this pattern moved up to ToC. People became used to running ToC with tanks that had 40k unbuffed health and dps with 5k Gearscore who could pull 6k dps on any given fight, that when they saw somebody who didn't meet this standard, they would laugh at him. "What? You want to tank ToC? But you don't even have 38k unbuffed health and your Gearscore is only 4600. You can't tank this place."As you can probably guess, people began to get upset. They have plenty of gear for the raid they want to run, yet people are declining to invite them due to their Gearscore. Because of Gearscore, players could no longer run raids they were plenty capable of running. This soon became a common notion. Anybody using Gearscore to evaluate a player should be shunned. Due to the nature of player communication through guild channels, raids, and Trade Chat in general, the idea that Gearscore was not a viabale means of doing anything spread like a wildfire. The consequences of this misconception were dire. Players who did not understand the underlying issue behind misuse of Gearscore began to shun the addon with the same absurd blindness that first caused people to start disliking the addon in the first place.And now we arrive where we are today. The entire WoW community was already abuzz with the idea that gear and skill are not the same thing. And here comes an addon which allows players to do just that. Now, the players who first advocated correct use of the addon, not using it to absurd extents, are trying desperately to explain to the rest of the community when the addon is OK to use, and when it isn't. But now that the community has in their minds engraved the idea that Gearscore is bad, this is a very difficult point to get across because these players appear like the idiots who used the addon incorrectly in the first place. And who wants to listen to an idiot?
1-10-2010 @ 6:14PM
Please stop up ranking comments which make wild claims about how Gearscore is a useless addon that has no place in the game. Players who understand the core of the issue are on the verge of losing all hope in this community.
1-10-2010 @ 8:15PM
@reps, I didn't say Uld, i said 245. Y'know ... ToC-ish gear. Oh well, I'm glad you use GS better than most nitwits out there. But, the majority of people use it as the end all be all.
1-10-2010 @ 8:59PM
Funny, I didn't include a TL;DR version, yet you seem to have responded to one.
1-11-2010 @ 3:51AM
Eh, its the same thing every time a raid comes out for Wrath of the Lich King. First half of the first week, people require a high GS (like needing all gear equivalent to the previous raid). Second half of the first week, people require you to have a X-man achievement to join their Y-man raid. Second week, people require you to have one achievement and a high GS. Third week, people require you to have the same X-man achievement for the one you are joining and a high GS. Fourth week onward, people start asking for hard-mode achievements. When I'm on, I can count 15 level 80 priests on the server. If I use the tool, spam the channels, or join a guild - I usually don't get invited to a raid. If I answer a call, I usually get declined for whatever standard I must meet. I don't mind too much. I just recently saw Black Temple. I'll wait for the next expansion.*crosses fingers for xrealm LFR*
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