Blood Sport: Protection warriors overpowered?
Want to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women? Blood Sport investigates the entirety of all-things arena for gladiators and challengers alike. C. Christian Moore, multiple rank 1 gladiator, examines the latest arena strategy, trends, compositions and more in WoW.com's arena column.
Listening Music: Home Video's "You Will Know What to Do." The video is some sweet NASA footage; try to not be mesmerized by it (difficult, I confess). When I first heard Home Video a few years ago (Citizen EP, We and In a Submarine), I thought the band might be a Thom Yorke solo project. That's high praise from me. These guys do not disappoint.
Last Week: Part V of our Beginner's Guide to Arena. After featuring some Miles Davis and John Coltrane, we talked a bit about some of the aspects skilled arena damage-dealers excel with.
This Week: We'll be shifting gears a bit this week. Protection warriors are an important (and hot) topic within the arena community. I was thinking about publishing this article as a stand-alone and continuing the arena guide this week, but I've just been a tad bit too busy recently. More after the break!
- Italics are Ghostcrawler's recent post.
Ghostcrawler on protection in PvP
- Will it nerf them for PvP? Yes. Aside from stuns and Dismantle, rooting or snaring the Prot warrior is the major way to keep him off of you. Considering all of the stuns and silences that Prot has, when they can also jump out of every Frost Nova with Warbringer, then there's not much in the way of skill a mage can employ to stay alive. They just get countered in every way.
We need to drop the idea that kiting or distance is somehow important in arena. It's not. It hasn't been since the early seasons of The Burning Crusade (i.e. when people didn't know how to play arenas).
I'm sure we can all think of times when kiting or distance is important. Yes, if you're talking druid-warrior or druid-rogue compositions in season three or four, you'll probably make a good case that Entangling Roots, Hamstring, and Travel Form worked wonders for kiting, control, distance, survivability and so on.
Likewise, one might argue in support of matters of range when witnessing a warlock-mage combo absolutely destroy one of the best 2v2 compositions of all time, death knight-paladin in season five hayday. Frost Nova and chilly snares keeping the opposing death knight off the warlock while the two crowd controlled and nuked the opposing team into oblivion was a spectacular sight. We can all think of the occasional time it happens now, or scenario where it appeared in the past.
Frankly, if you're talking about kiting, you're going to be discussing 2v2 the vast majority of the time. In 3v3 and 5v5, kiting is about as common as actual kites. Blizzard has wisely eschewed the smallest arena bracket from the highest levels of competitive play for balance reasons, above all else.
I mean, losing due to being excessively kited didn't happen in most games, even in that day. It rarely, if ever, happens in today's arena. With exception to the recent Warbringer nerf, and perhaps another I'm not recalling off the top of my head, developers have been increasing the mobility of melee classes ad infinitum.
Not only do many talents have a get-out-of-jail-free-card when it comes to avoiding snares and roots, but almost every movement impairing effect is dispellable. Let's not even get into Hand of Freedom, Spell Reflect, and teleport stuns. Warbringer is powerful, but only one of almost endless ways to keep mobile. Oh, and the fact that most snares melee has access to are far more easy to apply and baseline effective than 'defensive' snares.
Curveball
I can hear some very observant readers right now: "Wait, but isn't Moore arguing against himself? If it's so easy for melee to get on a target, and stay on it, then aren't the developers being brilliant by nerfing protection's ability to get out of snares?"
Kiting shouldn't exist. It's stupid. It's not fun for either side. There is no middle ground. There is no skillful dichotomy of play.
Blizzard has stated (and I agree with our developers on most points, this being one of them) that offense always needs to win out. We shouldn't be seeing 20 minute games where neither team can kill each other. Melee needs to be on their target. And that's why this "nerf" is so frustrating to me. Blizzard is committing a double, nay, triple, err, quadruple sin with this philosophy.
- Overemphasizing the importance and effectiveness of kiting/distance.
- Setting up mages (which have arguably the most tools of any class to control warriors) as a golden standard.
- Forgetting that warriors play with teammates, many of which have the ability to easily free them from movement impairing effects.
- Worst of all, failing to grasp why players bring protection warriors to the table. (hint: near-infinite stuns + high constant damage)
- The problem with the PvP side of Warbringer is that when you consider prot warrior versus mage (just as an example), there was nothing a mage could do to a well versed warrior. The warrior carries a lot of stuns, silences, and then any attempt to root him is broken by multiple abilities. So then the warrior's teammate (like a hunter) is just doing tons of damage while the target has no defenses.
Affliction warlocks do a lot of damage in PvP, perhaps the most out of any class if you leave them to free cast their dots. While spamming damage on multiple targets with relatively little disruption, a skilled affliction warlock can put out almost as much dps as a skilled protection warrior. This is fine until you realize that the protection warrior is perhaps the most disruptive class/spec to see on the other side of the arena, far more than an affliction warlock.
Ghostcrawler mentioned that the kill target has no defenses (because of Warbringer, mind you). Once the Warbringer nerf goes live, what options does a mage have now that he didn't before? Frost Nova + Blink is not going to solve this problem.
Other classes don't even have that defense to rely on. Simply put, this nerf solves nothing.
I don't say that lightly. I'm not a gloom and doom, the sky is falling kind of person. I believe Blizzard will get this right eventually. Protection warriors are a relatively new sight in arena. The only other time I've played with or against a protection warrior was a combined six games in season four and season six -- three for fun and three because the opposing team was just trying something different. We'll get there, it might just take some time.
Checking out armories to solve arena dilemmas
- Now the damage change. As Bornakk posted recently, what we essentially did was look at some of the successful Prot PvP characters and compare them to some of the Prot tanks out there. We nerfed the block conversion to Shield Slam damage so that it would hit the PvP guy without really hitting the PvE guy. (The PvP warriors aren't stacking a ton of Shield Block Value, but they do have a lot of Strength which also converts to block for purposes of making Shield Slam hit harder -- many of these guys are wearing PvE dps plate.)
- Will it nerf them for PvP? Yes. We want Prot to be able to hit reasonably hard, but they also need to pay some price for their massive survivability. We thought the Warbringer change alone would nerf the warriors vs. e.g. mages but wouldn't control their damage. Those big Shield Slam crits should go down a lot.
A few things here which I've already touched on:
- Protection warriors aren't going to get any worse vs. mages and certainly not vs. any other class because of the Warbringer nerf. Swing and a miss, not a big deal.
- While dropping burst damage is great, the overall damage is the bigger problem.
- The even larger problem is the stuns and silences protection warriors have access to.
Okay, so this article was primarily negative. This is in contrast to most of my work and posts, and I'm okay with that. This is an issue many arena players feel strongly about. I was personally on the fence about this issue until about a week ago. Here are some positives:
- Blizzard's stance on changing things quickly is fantastic. I am relentlessly glad we won't see 700 rated protection warrior heroes Skillwaving their way to the top ten spots on the arena ladder.
- Blizzard wants all thirty specs to be viable in PvP.
- With the exception of season four to season five, each arena season has tended to be more balanced than the one preceding it in terms of class representation.
- Cut damage away from protection warriors, up their threat modifiers to make up for it.
- Take the blanket silence off of Shield Bash and Heroic Throw. Change Gag Order into an interrupt effect.
- Make protection a more defensive-utility spec rather than being offensive. Improved Spell Reflection is the best example of a wonderful arena talent that isn't mind boggingly overpowered.
- Shave the stun duration on Shockwave and Concussion Blow by one second each.
- If it hasn't been fixed already, have Shockwave apply diminishing returns on itself.
Think of a protection player as a healer who doesn't heal. He adds survivability to the team (main role) while doing a bit of damage as well (secondary role).
Next Week
We'll probably continue on with our arena guide -- this article was a nice break. I don't think we'll be able to get to positioning next week, but we'll be doing something interesting. Let me know what you thought of this article in the comments below, and feel free to suggest some listening music!
Want to ascend the arena ladders faster than a fireman playing Donkey Kong? Check out WoW.com's articles on arena, successful arena PvPers, PvP, and our arena column, Blood Sport.Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, PvP, Wrath of the Lich King, Blood Sport (Arena PvP), Battlegrounds, Arena
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 8)
Walynds Jan 12th 2010 3:54PM
WTB edit button. Should read ArP is the issue.
For the record, I've never seen the writer of an article so heaviliy downrated in the comments. Its not that your article is bad. Your solutioins will gimp PvE.
Ill Ive heard from the PvP crowd (I do dabble BTW) it how OP warriors of every spec are since rolling my warrior during S2-S3.
As prot Ive been somewhere in the middle of the tank pecking order for a while now. Removal of Gag order and further reduction of damage (already do SFA damage in PvE? hello????) will only make warrior tanks less desiarable again.
artifex Jan 11th 2010 7:20PM
Good music, and I'm definitely going to check out more of their work. The video made me immediately think of "Dayvan Cowboy," by Boards Of Canada, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lEsLcGB7Vo if you don't know what I mean.
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 7:27PM
Aye, another reader has recommended Boards of Canada. They're some of my favorite. They'll be featured soon enough. :)
Shawn Jan 11th 2010 7:22PM
RE: Take the blanket silence off of Shield Bash and Heroic Throw. Change Gag Order into an interrupt effect.
This is bad for pve, if you do this then the prot warriors only way to pull a caster mob is now LoS. We need the silence on Heroic Throw at least.
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 7:25PM
Or you can just... run up to it and tank it ? The silence creates more problems in PvP than it solves in PvE.
Jtown Jan 11th 2010 7:29PM
I think it's a big mistake to force pve to suffer based on pvp
Shawn Jan 11th 2010 7:29PM
That's not always a good idea given how other mobs in the are pat around.
Enkylanos Jan 11th 2010 7:34PM
That silence is beyond useful in PVE. There are a lot of cases where if you "just run up to it and tank it" you'll pull adds or a pat. Not to mention pulls like FoS where you have multiple casters spread out and need to find some way to collect them before they decide that your healer looks tasty. Heroic Throw is on a one-minute CD. It's hardly game-breaking.
Jackholla Jan 11th 2010 7:51PM
I'm with Shawn here, WoW has always been a primarily PvE MMO. All this "Balance" in regards to mostly nerfs, maybe a buff here and there (that'll then get nerfed..after a bit of PvP QQ) is getting a bit old. Thought Blizz wanted players to experience end game content and make it avalible for "casuals"? and Arenas just don't fit into the "bring the player not the class" mentality. Personally, I would hope when the xpan hits we actually see arenas gone (vote me down), with rated BG's more of the PvP focus. Arenas have always been a balancing issue and a huge headache for the Devs. Seriously, the only way to balance arenas is to play naked and slap eachother around for a bit.
I'll run up and tank the caster, the caster can kite me =)
PvP creates more problems than it solves
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 8:01PM
You're certainly entitled to your own opinions, but looking at this article as an affront to PvE protection is just silly.
The suggestions I mentioned are far from game-breaking. I suppose if you play a prot warrior and PvE is all you care about, it would be quite easy to get upset at any nerf based on PvP.
PvPers are the same way often times. A PvE nerf upsets them because it affects them aversely in PvP. The two are joined, they're here to stay, and we have to deal with it.
I personally remember a day when heroic throw (and the silence on it) didn't exist. Protection warriors did just fine.
Honestly, we're comparing a spec that is destroying arena right now compared to making life on trash a bit easier.
Kooshi Jan 11th 2010 8:23PM
I agree. Taking out silences and replacing them with interrupts is bad. Out of the 4 tanking classes, I play 3.
I would say the tank with the worst interrupt/silence ability is a bear. Why? They have a 1 min CD stun/interrupt (Bash) and their main interrupt is Feral Charge (15 sec CD, but only works if you're between 8-25 yards), which is pretty weak if you compare the rest of the tanking classes.
Prot Paladins: Avenger's Shield (30 second CD, SILENCE, 3 targets).
Hammer of Justice (40 second CD [spec'd], stun/interrupt).
Warriors: Shield Bash/Gag Order (12 second CD, Silence if spec'd)
Charge (stun/interrupt, 15 second CD, 8-25 yd range)
Intercept (stun/interrupt, 30 second CD, 8-25 yd range)
Concussion Blow (stun/interrupt, 30 second CD)
Shockwave (stun/interrupt, 20 second CD)
Death Knight: Mind Freeze (interrupt, 10 second CD)
Strangulate (silence/interrupt, 2 minute CD)
Druid: Bash (stun/interrupt, 1 minute CD [can be spec'd to 30 second CD])
Feral Charge - Bear (root/interrupt, 15 second CD, 8-25 yd range)
Looking at those abilities, I would say buff druids if anything. But the way Blizzard does things, they prefer not to buff classes to another class's level, but to nerf the other class. So nerf warriors instead of buff druids.
In any case, that's a lot of abilities that warriors have to take down a caster. Add some ArP into the mix and you can take down physical dps down too.
Bananacup Jan 11th 2010 9:13PM
"Or you can just... run up to it and tank it ? The silence creates more problems in PvP than it solves in PvE."
Judging by this comment alone, I know how much you know about PvE warrior tanking.
Which is nothing.
Dan Jan 11th 2010 9:18PM
"I personally remember a day when heroic throw (and the silence on it) didn't exist. Protection warriors did just fine."
Thing is back in the days you recall, people used crowd control etc. Tanks rarely tanked more than 1 or 2 mobs at a time. Now days tanks are expected to tank 4+ mobs at a time. As mentioned if you suddenly have 2 casters in 1 group and want to group them together this silence is so essential.
Grubba Jan 11th 2010 10:00PM
Please, do give us a list of nerfs made for PVE that impacted PVP. Then we can stack that list up against the PVP nerfs that affected PVE and see which is larger.
Cutlass Jan 12th 2010 6:26PM
"Or you can just... run up to it and tank it ? The silence creates more problems in PvP than it solves in PvE."
I don't see why they cant just alter an ability to affect PVP differently and just include it in the tooltip, if its causing so much more trouble in PVP, instead of making the PVE side of it worse. For example, if the silence from shield bash is too OP for PVP, why not just take that part away from it in PVP and leave the spell unchanged for PVE? And put in the tooltip, "silencing effect does not work on enemy players" or something, similar to what they did to exorcism for pallys?
dan Jan 12th 2010 2:32AM
"Or you can just... run up to it and tank it ? The silence creates more problems in PvP than it solves in PvE."
That sounds fine and dandy.
Raid leader: "Why are you up there beating on that plague scientist?"
Silence-less warrior tank: "I'm running up and tanking it like C. Christian Moore suggested."
Raid leader: "Thanks for adding Stinky and some Fleshreapers to the pull...."
I hate to be sarcastic (check my history of comments here, I'm generally very even keel) but this is just inane commentary.
Jafari Jan 12th 2010 9:12AM
The author is being voted down for not knowing what it is like to tank groups of casters/ranged.
Mr. Moore, you really need to hop into an instance as a tank to understand. Most PvE pulls that involve ranged and/or caster/healers have more than one of them. You can't just "run up to" two different casters unless you can convince one to move toward you. The only way to have them move is to silence them. Stuns prevent them from coming toward you.
Now, to be fair, druid tanks have no silences without stuns and have to constantly run between casters unless they line of sight pull, so it can be done, but as of right now, the ability to make a silenced caster chase you for 6 seconds is part of the facesmashing "feel" of warrior tanking, and is a big part of the fun factor.
Your casual proposal to take that *fun* part of tanking warrior-ness away to solve a strange niche PvP situation makes people angry, no matter how much you try to justify it.
I commend Rossi for rightly beating the ArPen drums, hopefully someone at Blizzard will see it. ArPen is already acknowledged to be a "broken" stat and is slated for removal. IIRC, it works slightly differently in PvP already, maybe it's effect in PvP needs more tweaking before it is finally removed.
Walynds Jan 12th 2010 4:04PM
Sure Christian, Ill charge out of range of my healers on Deathwhisper, Dragging the melee mobs Im tanking with me, getting dazed when I'm running back and having a fire dropped on me whilst staggering back.
Yeah sure Ill do that.......You paying my repairs?? or my guilds infact.
Please don't comment on an ability than you dont fully understand the applications of in PvE.
Jtown Jan 11th 2010 7:28PM
It sorta feels like you're just angry you're getting bashed in the face so often. Warriors do not need a nerf (though I do agree with the warbringer change). Warrior pvp dps is fine, I don't know where you got the numbers comparing it to lock pvp dps, that's just crazy.
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 7:34PM
http://www.wowarmory.com/arena-team-game-chart.xml?r=Blackrock&ts=3&t=STRAIGHT+TO+THE+TOP&select=STRAIGHT+TO+THE+TOP
Dem numbers don't lie.