Blood Sport: Protection warriors overpowered?
Want to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women? Blood Sport investigates the entirety of all-things arena for gladiators and challengers alike. C. Christian Moore, multiple rank 1 gladiator, examines the latest arena strategy, trends, compositions and more in WoW.com's arena column.
Listening Music: Home Video's "You Will Know What to Do." The video is some sweet NASA footage; try to not be mesmerized by it (difficult, I confess). When I first heard Home Video a few years ago (Citizen EP, We and In a Submarine), I thought the band might be a Thom Yorke solo project. That's high praise from me. These guys do not disappoint.
Last Week: Part V of our Beginner's Guide to Arena. After featuring some Miles Davis and John Coltrane, we talked a bit about some of the aspects skilled arena damage-dealers excel with.
This Week: We'll be shifting gears a bit this week. Protection warriors are an important (and hot) topic within the arena community. I was thinking about publishing this article as a stand-alone and continuing the arena guide this week, but I've just been a tad bit too busy recently. More after the break!
- Italics are Ghostcrawler's recent post.
Ghostcrawler on protection in PvP
- Will it nerf them for PvP? Yes. Aside from stuns and Dismantle, rooting or snaring the Prot warrior is the major way to keep him off of you. Considering all of the stuns and silences that Prot has, when they can also jump out of every Frost Nova with Warbringer, then there's not much in the way of skill a mage can employ to stay alive. They just get countered in every way.
We need to drop the idea that kiting or distance is somehow important in arena. It's not. It hasn't been since the early seasons of The Burning Crusade (i.e. when people didn't know how to play arenas).
I'm sure we can all think of times when kiting or distance is important. Yes, if you're talking druid-warrior or druid-rogue compositions in season three or four, you'll probably make a good case that Entangling Roots, Hamstring, and Travel Form worked wonders for kiting, control, distance, survivability and so on.
Likewise, one might argue in support of matters of range when witnessing a warlock-mage combo absolutely destroy one of the best 2v2 compositions of all time, death knight-paladin in season five hayday. Frost Nova and chilly snares keeping the opposing death knight off the warlock while the two crowd controlled and nuked the opposing team into oblivion was a spectacular sight. We can all think of the occasional time it happens now, or scenario where it appeared in the past.
Frankly, if you're talking about kiting, you're going to be discussing 2v2 the vast majority of the time. In 3v3 and 5v5, kiting is about as common as actual kites. Blizzard has wisely eschewed the smallest arena bracket from the highest levels of competitive play for balance reasons, above all else.
I mean, losing due to being excessively kited didn't happen in most games, even in that day. It rarely, if ever, happens in today's arena. With exception to the recent Warbringer nerf, and perhaps another I'm not recalling off the top of my head, developers have been increasing the mobility of melee classes ad infinitum.
Not only do many talents have a get-out-of-jail-free-card when it comes to avoiding snares and roots, but almost every movement impairing effect is dispellable. Let's not even get into Hand of Freedom, Spell Reflect, and teleport stuns. Warbringer is powerful, but only one of almost endless ways to keep mobile. Oh, and the fact that most snares melee has access to are far more easy to apply and baseline effective than 'defensive' snares.
Curveball
I can hear some very observant readers right now: "Wait, but isn't Moore arguing against himself? If it's so easy for melee to get on a target, and stay on it, then aren't the developers being brilliant by nerfing protection's ability to get out of snares?"
Kiting shouldn't exist. It's stupid. It's not fun for either side. There is no middle ground. There is no skillful dichotomy of play.
Blizzard has stated (and I agree with our developers on most points, this being one of them) that offense always needs to win out. We shouldn't be seeing 20 minute games where neither team can kill each other. Melee needs to be on their target. And that's why this "nerf" is so frustrating to me. Blizzard is committing a double, nay, triple, err, quadruple sin with this philosophy.
- Overemphasizing the importance and effectiveness of kiting/distance.
- Setting up mages (which have arguably the most tools of any class to control warriors) as a golden standard.
- Forgetting that warriors play with teammates, many of which have the ability to easily free them from movement impairing effects.
- Worst of all, failing to grasp why players bring protection warriors to the table. (hint: near-infinite stuns + high constant damage)
- The problem with the PvP side of Warbringer is that when you consider prot warrior versus mage (just as an example), there was nothing a mage could do to a well versed warrior. The warrior carries a lot of stuns, silences, and then any attempt to root him is broken by multiple abilities. So then the warrior's teammate (like a hunter) is just doing tons of damage while the target has no defenses.
Affliction warlocks do a lot of damage in PvP, perhaps the most out of any class if you leave them to free cast their dots. While spamming damage on multiple targets with relatively little disruption, a skilled affliction warlock can put out almost as much dps as a skilled protection warrior. This is fine until you realize that the protection warrior is perhaps the most disruptive class/spec to see on the other side of the arena, far more than an affliction warlock.
Ghostcrawler mentioned that the kill target has no defenses (because of Warbringer, mind you). Once the Warbringer nerf goes live, what options does a mage have now that he didn't before? Frost Nova + Blink is not going to solve this problem.
Other classes don't even have that defense to rely on. Simply put, this nerf solves nothing.
I don't say that lightly. I'm not a gloom and doom, the sky is falling kind of person. I believe Blizzard will get this right eventually. Protection warriors are a relatively new sight in arena. The only other time I've played with or against a protection warrior was a combined six games in season four and season six -- three for fun and three because the opposing team was just trying something different. We'll get there, it might just take some time.
Checking out armories to solve arena dilemmas
- Now the damage change. As Bornakk posted recently, what we essentially did was look at some of the successful Prot PvP characters and compare them to some of the Prot tanks out there. We nerfed the block conversion to Shield Slam damage so that it would hit the PvP guy without really hitting the PvE guy. (The PvP warriors aren't stacking a ton of Shield Block Value, but they do have a lot of Strength which also converts to block for purposes of making Shield Slam hit harder -- many of these guys are wearing PvE dps plate.)
- Will it nerf them for PvP? Yes. We want Prot to be able to hit reasonably hard, but they also need to pay some price for their massive survivability. We thought the Warbringer change alone would nerf the warriors vs. e.g. mages but wouldn't control their damage. Those big Shield Slam crits should go down a lot.
A few things here which I've already touched on:
- Protection warriors aren't going to get any worse vs. mages and certainly not vs. any other class because of the Warbringer nerf. Swing and a miss, not a big deal.
- While dropping burst damage is great, the overall damage is the bigger problem.
- The even larger problem is the stuns and silences protection warriors have access to.
Okay, so this article was primarily negative. This is in contrast to most of my work and posts, and I'm okay with that. This is an issue many arena players feel strongly about. I was personally on the fence about this issue until about a week ago. Here are some positives:
- Blizzard's stance on changing things quickly is fantastic. I am relentlessly glad we won't see 700 rated protection warrior heroes Skillwaving their way to the top ten spots on the arena ladder.
- Blizzard wants all thirty specs to be viable in PvP.
- With the exception of season four to season five, each arena season has tended to be more balanced than the one preceding it in terms of class representation.
- Cut damage away from protection warriors, up their threat modifiers to make up for it.
- Take the blanket silence off of Shield Bash and Heroic Throw. Change Gag Order into an interrupt effect.
- Make protection a more defensive-utility spec rather than being offensive. Improved Spell Reflection is the best example of a wonderful arena talent that isn't mind boggingly overpowered.
- Shave the stun duration on Shockwave and Concussion Blow by one second each.
- If it hasn't been fixed already, have Shockwave apply diminishing returns on itself.
Think of a protection player as a healer who doesn't heal. He adds survivability to the team (main role) while doing a bit of damage as well (secondary role).
Next Week
We'll probably continue on with our arena guide -- this article was a nice break. I don't think we'll be able to get to positioning next week, but we'll be doing something interesting. Let me know what you thought of this article in the comments below, and feel free to suggest some listening music!
Want to ascend the arena ladders faster than a fireman playing Donkey Kong? Check out WoW.com's articles on arena, successful arena PvPers, PvP, and our arena column, Blood Sport.Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, PvP, Wrath of the Lich King, Blood Sport (Arena PvP), Battlegrounds, Arena
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 8)
psychosurge Jan 12th 2010 4:55AM
Yup the number 1 team has a prot warr on it. and every other warrior in the top ten is arms.
Glaras Jan 11th 2010 11:04PM
Wait... You're kidding us, right? You're supporting a nerf based on the performance of a single 3v3 arena team? And for this, you want to reduce my effectiveness in ICC?
Roboticus Jan 12th 2010 10:53AM
Chase, I think your commentary is excellent, accurate, and fair, though the armor pen point is good.
Disregard the constant down-voting. A quick survey across the sight suggests people tend to down-vote pvp focused ideas, independent of quality.
Roboticus Jan 12th 2010 10:57AM
Oh, and one other thing regarding the Rank 1 team Chase linked. Don't disregard his point until you actually look at the link. In almost every game that team played, the prot warrior outdamaged his hunter partner, usually by a factor of 2 times. The point chase was responding to was one that suggested prot dps is NOT on part with pure dps classes. The match history of this team (and any decent prot team) shows that they regularly outdamge pure dps classes.
But who am I joking, auto down-vote to your pve heart's content.
Walynds Jan 12th 2010 4:17PM
/applaud phycosurge!
Well played sir. WTB thought out changes not a knee jerk reaction to less than 10% of teams packing a Prot.
ArP is Borked. Blizz say so themselves hence its impending doom. Remove it from SS.
Enkylanos Jan 11th 2010 7:27PM
Can't disagree more with the suggestion to decrease Prot sustained DPS. Protection Warriors are already the lowest DPS tanking class. And I'm sure I haven't seen a whole lot of calls to nerf Protection Paladin or Bear Druid DPS.
There's no need to further lower Prot Warrior's already weak PVE DPS for the sake of arenas.
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 7:30PM
This is a PvP article. Prot Warriors do far more damage in PvP than bears. There are many aspects to Prot PvP DPS which you might not be taking into consideration.
Unless you missed the second half of my suggestion, I wrote:
"...up their threat modifiers to make up for it."
Enkylanos Jan 11th 2010 7:38PM
As GC et al have repeated said they don't want to break PVE for the sake of PVP, I'd say it's a fair point to make regardless. You've thrown out a bunch of suggestions, most of which have a negative effect on PVE tanking for Prot Warriors. You don't think there are going to be comments to that effect?
Transit Jan 11th 2010 7:40PM
This is a PvP article. Prot Warriors do far more damage in PvP than bears. There are many aspects to Prot PvP DPS which you might not be taking into consideration.
Unless you missed the second half of my suggestion, I wrote:
"...up their threat modifiers to make up for it."
Then can the mobs tank fight have less hp then? Maybe a special talent in boss fights to make their hp lower?
Last time I checked dps race bosses still require dps. Threat does not hurt them that much. Why take a prot warrior tank if the others will help out the dps more?
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 7:56PM
Rossi already mentioned that Prot Warrior damage is very high in PvP comparatively.
In PvE, prot warriors are still doing a good bit less than everyone else. A round the board (or flat percentage) nerf in damage and increase in threat will affect PvP prot the greatest while affecting PvE prot the least.
I'm sure there are times when your group would have wiped had it not been for those few extra points of damage your protection warrior squeezed off.
There are far more (and I mean farrrrrrrrrr more) times where protection warriors have doubled or tripled damage from an opposing class they were locking down in 3v3.
Grubba Jan 12th 2010 12:48AM
"There are far more (and I mean farrrrrrrrrr more) times where protection warriors have doubled or tripled damage from an opposing class they were locking down in 3v3."
You know, considering the percentage of WoW's population playing arenas relative to the percentage doing PVE content, I think that this comment is seriously debatable at best, but is probably just outright wrong.
AltairAntares Jan 12th 2010 1:25AM
Christian, you don't get it- having insane things going on in pvp doesn't matter when such a small percentage of the population plays pvp. No One Cares about pvp. Everyone Cares about PvE.
I heal high end instances, and healing warrior tanks far frustrating more then any other type, especially since Dk tanks are far more experienced then they used to be. They have far more trouble with grabbing ranged mobs, and the incidence of me dieing is far more likely then it is with any other class in my experience.
GC's "bring the player, not the class" doctrine isn't working for both PVE and PVP, but when the two are in conflict like they are now, unfortunately for pvp, pve wins.
Shawn Jan 11th 2010 7:27PM
That's not always a good idea given how other mobs in the are pat around.
Sleutel Jan 11th 2010 7:29PM
"*Cut damage away from protection warriors, up their threat modifiers to make up for it.
*Take the blanket silence off of Shield Bash and Heroic Throw. Change Gag Order into an interrupt effect."
There are both ideas that would be TERRIBLE for Prot Warrior PvE.
Cutting damage: We're already at the BASEMENT of tank DPS.
Removing silence: This is the only way we currently have to move casters in trash packs. The new ICC instances area already tricky for a Prot War (doable, definitely, but you have to know your class); remove our silences, and we will have literally NO way to get a caster to join the rest of the pack. With one caster, that's not a problem, because you can just tank everything else on the caster (the melee will run to you). But with multiple casters (as is the case pretty much everywhere in ICC 5-mans), you MUST have some way to gather up the scattered casters, or they will eat your DPS and healer alive.
Sleutel Jan 11th 2010 7:29PM
*These are both
WTB edit button.
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 7:33PM
Mages have Counterspell, warlocks have Spell Lock, protection paladins have Avenger's Shield, etc etc etc.
While I'm sure trash is an incredibly important aspect that needs lots of balance attention, I'm still going to stick with my argument for now.
Shawn Jan 11th 2010 7:52PM
It's not just about trash, I use my heroic throw all the time to wrangle adds in the Lady Deathwhisper fight. I don't think you understand how important that silence is for a pve prot warrior. I understand is has issues in pvp but it is immensely important for pve tanking.
As for reducing our damage and upping our threat that isn't the greatest solution in the world either, too many pve fights depend on the tank bringing a reasonable amount of dps to the table. Warriors are already at the low end, even after the devastate buff, bringing us down further only hurts our viability in serious pve content. A tank's job is not just to keep something attacking them but to also not be a dead weight on the dps charts.
But if I had to choose between the two for pve I'd choose a damage reduction over your suggested nerf to heroic throw.
I think they should just to warriors what they do to pallies and shamen, make some of their abilities not work in arenas, or work differently.
Sleutel Jan 11th 2010 7:55PM
@C.Christian.Moore:
"Mages have Counterspell, warlocks have Spell Lock, protection paladins have Avenger's Shield, etc etc etc."
The first two (and DK Death Grips, etc.) all rely on someone EXTERNAL to the tank to solve the problem. You cannot ever assume that the rest of your group is not full of people who are either ignorant about their classes or just don't care about anything but topping the meters--who won't stop their rotation for the single GCD it takes to help you gather the adds up.
The lattermost, I have no idea where you're even coming from. If you have a Prot Paladin in a five-man with a Prot Warrior, somebody fucked up.
Bottom line: EVERY tank needs some mechanic to gather scattered adds so they can maintain threat on them.
C.Christian.Moore Jan 11th 2010 8:04PM
Sleutel:
Or you can just run up and tank it. Removing silence from shattering throw is not as game-breaking (lol pun) as you might think.
Afterall, I suggested that it be made an interrupt. Are you telling me that a good prot warrior couldn't just use it as an interrupt for the same purpose?
Sleutel Jan 11th 2010 9:44PM
@C.Christian.Moore:
One of us doesn't understand PvE game mechanics.
My understanding is that if you interrupt but do not silence, the mob will stay where it is and restart casting. You need a SILENCE to get the mob to follow you after you hit it. Your understanding is apparently that if you interrupt, the mob will follow you even though it could start casting at that moment.
Running up and tanking a caster DOES NOT WORK for multiple casters, as I already explained. When there are two or more casters in a pack, far enough apart that when I'm on one, the other is out of melee range, one of them needs to be silence-pulled. It's right there in the name of the technique. It's a SILENCE pull, not an INTERRUPT pull.