Blood Sport: Protection warriors overpowered?
Want to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women? Blood Sport investigates the entirety of all-things arena for gladiators and challengers alike. C. Christian Moore, multiple rank 1 gladiator, examines the latest arena strategy, trends, compositions and more in WoW.com's arena column.
Listening Music: Home Video's "You Will Know What to Do." The video is some sweet NASA footage; try to not be mesmerized by it (difficult, I confess). When I first heard Home Video a few years ago (Citizen EP, We and In a Submarine), I thought the band might be a Thom Yorke solo project. That's high praise from me. These guys do not disappoint.
Last Week: Part V of our Beginner's Guide to Arena. After featuring some Miles Davis and John Coltrane, we talked a bit about some of the aspects skilled arena damage-dealers excel with.
This Week: We'll be shifting gears a bit this week. Protection warriors are an important (and hot) topic within the arena community. I was thinking about publishing this article as a stand-alone and continuing the arena guide this week, but I've just been a tad bit too busy recently. More after the break!
- Italics are Ghostcrawler's recent post.
Ghostcrawler on protection in PvP
- Will it nerf them for PvP? Yes. Aside from stuns and Dismantle, rooting or snaring the Prot warrior is the major way to keep him off of you. Considering all of the stuns and silences that Prot has, when they can also jump out of every Frost Nova with Warbringer, then there's not much in the way of skill a mage can employ to stay alive. They just get countered in every way.
We need to drop the idea that kiting or distance is somehow important in arena. It's not. It hasn't been since the early seasons of The Burning Crusade (i.e. when people didn't know how to play arenas).
I'm sure we can all think of times when kiting or distance is important. Yes, if you're talking druid-warrior or druid-rogue compositions in season three or four, you'll probably make a good case that Entangling Roots, Hamstring, and Travel Form worked wonders for kiting, control, distance, survivability and so on.
Likewise, one might argue in support of matters of range when witnessing a warlock-mage combo absolutely destroy one of the best 2v2 compositions of all time, death knight-paladin in season five hayday. Frost Nova and chilly snares keeping the opposing death knight off the warlock while the two crowd controlled and nuked the opposing team into oblivion was a spectacular sight. We can all think of the occasional time it happens now, or scenario where it appeared in the past.
Frankly, if you're talking about kiting, you're going to be discussing 2v2 the vast majority of the time. In 3v3 and 5v5, kiting is about as common as actual kites. Blizzard has wisely eschewed the smallest arena bracket from the highest levels of competitive play for balance reasons, above all else.
I mean, losing due to being excessively kited didn't happen in most games, even in that day. It rarely, if ever, happens in today's arena. With exception to the recent Warbringer nerf, and perhaps another I'm not recalling off the top of my head, developers have been increasing the mobility of melee classes ad infinitum.
Not only do many talents have a get-out-of-jail-free-card when it comes to avoiding snares and roots, but almost every movement impairing effect is dispellable. Let's not even get into Hand of Freedom, Spell Reflect, and teleport stuns. Warbringer is powerful, but only one of almost endless ways to keep mobile. Oh, and the fact that most snares melee has access to are far more easy to apply and baseline effective than 'defensive' snares.
Curveball
I can hear some very observant readers right now: "Wait, but isn't Moore arguing against himself? If it's so easy for melee to get on a target, and stay on it, then aren't the developers being brilliant by nerfing protection's ability to get out of snares?"
Kiting shouldn't exist. It's stupid. It's not fun for either side. There is no middle ground. There is no skillful dichotomy of play.
Blizzard has stated (and I agree with our developers on most points, this being one of them) that offense always needs to win out. We shouldn't be seeing 20 minute games where neither team can kill each other. Melee needs to be on their target. And that's why this "nerf" is so frustrating to me. Blizzard is committing a double, nay, triple, err, quadruple sin with this philosophy.
- Overemphasizing the importance and effectiveness of kiting/distance.
- Setting up mages (which have arguably the most tools of any class to control warriors) as a golden standard.
- Forgetting that warriors play with teammates, many of which have the ability to easily free them from movement impairing effects.
- Worst of all, failing to grasp why players bring protection warriors to the table. (hint: near-infinite stuns + high constant damage)
- The problem with the PvP side of Warbringer is that when you consider prot warrior versus mage (just as an example), there was nothing a mage could do to a well versed warrior. The warrior carries a lot of stuns, silences, and then any attempt to root him is broken by multiple abilities. So then the warrior's teammate (like a hunter) is just doing tons of damage while the target has no defenses.
Affliction warlocks do a lot of damage in PvP, perhaps the most out of any class if you leave them to free cast their dots. While spamming damage on multiple targets with relatively little disruption, a skilled affliction warlock can put out almost as much dps as a skilled protection warrior. This is fine until you realize that the protection warrior is perhaps the most disruptive class/spec to see on the other side of the arena, far more than an affliction warlock.
Ghostcrawler mentioned that the kill target has no defenses (because of Warbringer, mind you). Once the Warbringer nerf goes live, what options does a mage have now that he didn't before? Frost Nova + Blink is not going to solve this problem.
Other classes don't even have that defense to rely on. Simply put, this nerf solves nothing.
I don't say that lightly. I'm not a gloom and doom, the sky is falling kind of person. I believe Blizzard will get this right eventually. Protection warriors are a relatively new sight in arena. The only other time I've played with or against a protection warrior was a combined six games in season four and season six -- three for fun and three because the opposing team was just trying something different. We'll get there, it might just take some time.
Checking out armories to solve arena dilemmas
- Now the damage change. As Bornakk posted recently, what we essentially did was look at some of the successful Prot PvP characters and compare them to some of the Prot tanks out there. We nerfed the block conversion to Shield Slam damage so that it would hit the PvP guy without really hitting the PvE guy. (The PvP warriors aren't stacking a ton of Shield Block Value, but they do have a lot of Strength which also converts to block for purposes of making Shield Slam hit harder -- many of these guys are wearing PvE dps plate.)
- Will it nerf them for PvP? Yes. We want Prot to be able to hit reasonably hard, but they also need to pay some price for their massive survivability. We thought the Warbringer change alone would nerf the warriors vs. e.g. mages but wouldn't control their damage. Those big Shield Slam crits should go down a lot.
A few things here which I've already touched on:
- Protection warriors aren't going to get any worse vs. mages and certainly not vs. any other class because of the Warbringer nerf. Swing and a miss, not a big deal.
- While dropping burst damage is great, the overall damage is the bigger problem.
- The even larger problem is the stuns and silences protection warriors have access to.
Okay, so this article was primarily negative. This is in contrast to most of my work and posts, and I'm okay with that. This is an issue many arena players feel strongly about. I was personally on the fence about this issue until about a week ago. Here are some positives:
- Blizzard's stance on changing things quickly is fantastic. I am relentlessly glad we won't see 700 rated protection warrior heroes Skillwaving their way to the top ten spots on the arena ladder.
- Blizzard wants all thirty specs to be viable in PvP.
- With the exception of season four to season five, each arena season has tended to be more balanced than the one preceding it in terms of class representation.
- Cut damage away from protection warriors, up their threat modifiers to make up for it.
- Take the blanket silence off of Shield Bash and Heroic Throw. Change Gag Order into an interrupt effect.
- Make protection a more defensive-utility spec rather than being offensive. Improved Spell Reflection is the best example of a wonderful arena talent that isn't mind boggingly overpowered.
- Shave the stun duration on Shockwave and Concussion Blow by one second each.
- If it hasn't been fixed already, have Shockwave apply diminishing returns on itself.
Think of a protection player as a healer who doesn't heal. He adds survivability to the team (main role) while doing a bit of damage as well (secondary role).
Next Week
We'll probably continue on with our arena guide -- this article was a nice break. I don't think we'll be able to get to positioning next week, but we'll be doing something interesting. Let me know what you thought of this article in the comments below, and feel free to suggest some listening music!
Want to ascend the arena ladders faster than a fireman playing Donkey Kong? Check out WoW.com's articles on arena, successful arena PvPers, PvP, and our arena column, Blood Sport.Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, PvP, Wrath of the Lich King, Blood Sport (Arena PvP), Battlegrounds, Arena
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Reader Comments (Page 8 of 8)
Omegan01 Jan 12th 2010 5:26PM
“If we tunnel vision one issue hard enough, I'm sure we can be upset about slight nerfs. All we have to do is try.”
“Or you can just... run up to it and tank it ? The silence creates more problems in PvP than it solves in PvE.”
“You're certainly entitled to your own opinions, but looking at this article as an affront to PvE protection is just silly.
The suggestions I mentioned are far from game-breaking. I suppose if you play a prot warrior and PvE is all you care about, it would be quite easy to get upset at any nerf based on PvP.”
“Dem numbers don't lie.”
“I'm sure there are times when your group would have wiped had it not been for those few extra points of damage your protection warrior squeezed off.
There are far more (and I mean farrrrrrrrrr more) times where protection warriors have doubled or tripled damage from an opposing class they were locking down in 3v3.”
“While I'm sure trash is an incredibly important aspect that needs lots of balance attention, I'm still going to stick with my argument for now.”
“Or you can just run up and tank it. Removing silence from shattering throw is not as game-breaking (lol pun) as you might think.”
“As for casting fireball when you interrupt frost bolt, very few mobs do this although I'm sure the possibility for disaster is there.
On trash.”
A pleasant, understanding attitude like this is why arenas are so popular with the WoW community.
Anigel Jan 12th 2010 6:20PM
I was going to respond to this thread but before I did i read this fellows post and it was like he read my mind on how to do so
Sutemi
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=22418633982&sid=1&pageNo=2
I don't think some of the changes mentioned above will ever actually happen, as they affect key tanking talents that are NEEDED to not become the laughing stock of the tanking class.
Concussion Blow - The whole point of the talent is to stun, not do damage. Without the stun there is no Concussion. Reducing the stun time is a direct nerf to PvE and makes it nearly useless when it's primary use is to stun a second mob. Increasing the cooldown to have any meaning in PvP means it will not be availalbe for every pull in an instance.
Charge - One of the Prot Warriors cornerstone abilities. Rage is badly needed at the start of a pull, and sometimes in the middle of one. We have only one ranged attack and no real other ability to deal with mobs outside of our radius. Charge is what makes Warriors as an effective off tank viable (since our rage game is severly gimped otherwise in that scenario). Increasing the cooldown would be a direct nerf to PvE in far to many aspects. The stun allows us time to start our rotation ... without it the mob just keeps on moving and we'd miss our melee attack.
Shockwave - Another cornerstone of tanking. Take away the stun and you have a glorified Thunderclap, with no debuff. The stun allows us to fit in a Demo Shout and use another ability on an additional mob before TC is back up. Without the stun you really have no 51-point ability and the fun and flavor of being a tank at that level goes right out the window. Reduce the stun time and you increase the damage intake at the beginning of the pull, which further increases the healing required and the threat produced by the healer right at the start. I suppose the threat could be increased as well, which would be a boon, but the stun of Shockwave is what has kept Warrior tanking from falling too far behind the other tank classes.
Intervene - Take away the safeguard, nobody uses it in PvE that I have ever seen, except for new tanks ... which eventually drop it because they realize Intervene is not used when things the other players in their party/raid have any clue what they're doing. Even Intervene itself, while it has its uses, is not something I find myself using much at all. Actually, I find myself using it on a party member when running back from a wipe so I can catch up and put them on autofollow while I go to the bathroom ... that's it's primary use for me. In PvP though, it's totally different. I'm not sure I'd care if it was nerfed, or even deleted. Intercept and Charge together is plenty mobility by themselves.
Intercept - Again, I don't think you can take the stun away because otherwise your melee attack will miss by the time you get to the spot the mob was in when you initially hit the ability. It's a cornerstone ability just the Warrior class itself, so you can't mess with it's standard use much. However, it could possibly be taken out of Warbringer. I will always use Charge first, because of the rage gain, as tank. I only revert to Intercept if Charge is on cooldown, which is rare that as tank I need that much mobility, but I use Intercept and charge over and over in PvP. I think Intercept could probably be safely taken out of the Warbringer talent, so long as a 1-2 seconds was taken off the Charge cooldown in it's place (talented with Warbringer, only, not as a base ability CD reduction).
Revenge - I love revenge stuns in PvE, but I don't rely on them, they're just a great bonus during trash and farming. During boss fights it's pretty much a non-factor, so I'm not sure how I'd feel about the stun being removed. It would certainly be a nerf to PvE, but I don't think it would be very huge ... and if it meant not nerfing something else that was more of a tanking cornerstone, then I'd be all for it. However, during PvP, even with it still be RNG-dependent, this is a big blow to 1v1 battles. With regards to Arena though, I think we have enough to control to let this one go the way of mace stuns ... we have teammates that are more reliable than revenge stuns. But, again, 1v1 relies on this proc a lot more and I don't know a way to change it for 1v1 and not Arena teams.
TLDR: If changes HAVE to be made, then I think the following would be PvP changes that allow Prot Wars to keep mobility and control but at not such a dominant level while minimizing the effect on PvE tanking. These changes are taken as a whole concept:
Concussion Blow - No change at all.
Charge - No change to base ability. Warbringer reduces CD by 1-2 seconds.
Shockwave - No change at all.
Intervene - Get rid of Safeguard talent altogether or make it a glyph.
Intercept - No change to base ability. No longer included with Warbringer.
Revenge - Reduce # of RNG stun procs by half, delete the talent for stuns altogether.
Anyhow, just thinking out loud.
Q u o t e:
Also, prot warriors have too much damage and utility, but ret pallies can spam divine storm all day with 2 pc T10, bubble themselves or a teammate, buff, make a teammate or themselves immune to snares, heal (not well, mind you), stun, and that's not a problem?
It's not the Prot warrior by themselves ... you have teammates in Arena, and thus your point is perfectly valid. If Prot warriors were as Overpowered as they are being made out to be, then you'd see a lot of teams made up of just Prot warriors.
However, do you really think they'll look at total team comps and do nerfs over several classes to bring a specific comp down? No, they'll look at the cornerstone of the comp, and right now Prot Wars have Control and Mitigation on thier side ... and in any competitive game, those are the key components to winning (offense takes a back seat, generally).
So, no, it's not that it's not a problem, it's just the sqeaky wheels are getting the grease and changes to one class are easier than broad changes to several classes
Prot warriors, in and of themselves, are not a force in PvP to be reckoned. Prot warriors, with two or more other guys to provide what the warrior cannot (damage and healing, along with further control) are beasts. It's just like in PvE ... a Prot warrior is a beast in level 60 raids, lol, but can't do anything by himself in current raiding content. In order for him to function, he needs others to back him up. Otherwise you'd see videos of 10-man Warrior raids much like the ones we've seen of Druids and Pallys.
I suppose we have potential for a lot of damage, given specific gear and buffs, and a setup process to get everything to line up properly at the right time ... but I don't think Prot DPS in PvP is a rampant problem that needs to be addressed. To quote blues, there should not be nerfs due to a small percentage of unique combinations, only trends.
It's not us that's causing problems in Arena ... it's the guy behind the guy.
Ohlaf Jan 12th 2010 10:32PM
OK well,
I have a prot warrior a warlock and a pally healer. Now tonight I was mainly pvping in bgs with my lock, and yes I saw a lot more prot warriors than usual did I find them overpowered? No not at all I absolutely decimated them. Sure sometimes they got the better of me, but for the most part I really kicked their ass, true they we're more of a challange than in the past but I enjoyed that. Prot palladins we're a lot harder and seem to do a lot more damage tbh. The only thing I can think is this fix is to please hunters, druids and mages. Cause aside from the damage nerf the warbringer seems to be the ability that annoys those classes most of all. Well to mages I say blink, To hunters I say obscene amounts of burst damage and to druds your almost un-killable as restos. The only prot warrior that beat me really bad today had 4 stacks of tanasity and absolutly NO block value on any of his or her gear. In fact his or her damage was driven purely by the talent build and putting as many points in arms as they could get away with, so where does blizzard get the idea that nerfing sheild slam is the way to go is positively short sited and down right stupid.
The day before this I played my pally healer and again I had no issue killing warrior tanks with holy shock exorcism and anything I could throw at them. I just walked backwards slowly keeping out of range but not far enough that they could use charge or clap. The only warrior that beat me was an arms warrior in prot gear that caught me off guard when he blade stormed into me.
Playing a prot warrior myself in duels I never beat a resto, tank or feral druid very easly if at all resto's usually always win, boomkin yes ok I can beat them almost every time. Against mages I win 1 duel out of 5 usually. Against hunters it's really 50/50 wether I win or loose but always close (and that's been since TBC before all this hype about sheild slam and block value).
Also as I've said before how many prot warriors do you see in the top ten arena players list 0, how many in the top 100 6% and most of them are arms (last time I looked 2 days ago). Hunters and mages make up a massive percentage of the top arena teams. In fact last time I looked 4 out of the top ten players we're hunters. Now how the heck can ghost crawler say that their unbalanced, is he playing a mage hunter or druid per chance :P ?
Korgil Jan 13th 2010 9:37AM
You mention we should "run up and tank the mob" instead of the silence on throw, or get one of our party to interupt or silence a mob.......all silly ideas as the down rating shows
How about you get some one to sheep or cyclone the prot warrior instead of removing his abilities?
Suddenly a spec is viable and arena kiddies go crying to the developers that they are not killing them as easily, seriously get over it
With the incoming Warbringer nerf how about giving us a trade off instead.....a way to self cleanse dots for instance :-) keep the QQing aff locks busy moaning as they clearly have with nothing better to do
Ohlaf Jan 13th 2010 8:22AM
1 last thing I'd like to add that I missed in my last post is that my prot warrior can do about 1.5 k dps to 1.8 k in a raid. Now why then are people complaining about them doing so much damage in pvp? I'll tell why it's gear & different talent build plain and simple. Some are arms warriors with dps gear and prot gear 1 handed dps weapon and sheild getting all the benefits of the prot gear and having shield mixed with high dps. others are prot with more points in arms for dps and some dps gear switched in. Now nerfing prot dps is going to help this how? So to quote someone "your taking a club away from someone that uses a gun" I think that fits this perfectly.
Even with all that they are NOT dominating arena or battle grounds. The fact is they are newly discovering pvp after the days of dealing out crap all damage in TBC. The problem seems to be that other classes don't like having yet another class that they need to compete against and learn to beat. It's exactly the same as when DKs came out, everyone cried about how op they we're in pvp and arena. L2P (learn to play) I have no problem beating warriors with my lock and pally. The problem with their damage is not going to be solved by these nerfs and removing their cc is going to kill us in pve for trash pulls etc and if you send warrior's back to the TBC days I tell you now your going to have a lot less tanks in your dungeon finder/raids.
darisarix Jan 13th 2010 10:33AM
Warriors need a way to pull casters. One thing you could do is to make it a blanket silence out of combat and an interrupt in combat, which is a compromise between the two positions. As for shockwave and conq blow, shockwave's stun is hard to reduce because the aoe abilities of warriors are just barely adequate in wotlk, reducing them further is probably not viable, unless you did something like reduce/remove the cooldown of shockwave and/or thunderclap.
Design of encounters is balanced around tank capabilities, so run up and tank it doesn't work, and sometimes los pull doesn't work either. Druids can sometimes get away with this, but they have a 360 degree swipe (admittedly, they didn't when wotlk released). Making cleave 30 degrees with no target limit is one approach they can take, but I don't think they want warrior mechanics to be exact clones of druids.
Things can be done, but your specific proposals are not viable in light of pve realities, they are a far more significant nerf than I think you think they are.
Coops Jan 14th 2010 10:59PM
Nerfing the lowest DPS tank (in pve) damage more is a horrible idea.
Protection warriors need to have some resemblance of DPS in raids. C.Christian.Moore, what needs to be changed is PVP damage without effecting PVE damage.
From what i've noticed from PVProt is there is a large amount of ArP stacking, maybe start by nerfing protection warriors scaling from ArP (which is completely un-used stat for PVE) to lower damage, and not effect an already gimp tank.
Coops Jan 14th 2010 11:22PM
Furthermore, the DPS abilities of "protribution" (gearing ret +Sword and Board, and spec'ing prot) vastly out DPS Pvprot warriors, and sometimes Arms warriors. Although this has not really caught on like prot for warriors has, its likely going to gain in popularity soon, the only real difference from paladin and warrior is the obvious stuns, not to mention Prot Paladins obviously have a much higher survivability than prot warriors.
The one thing i can say that had come obviously apparent during Wotlk, is that Blizzard does not care to research and perform the appropriate class nerfs, just the classes that the bandwagon whines the most about.
C.Moore Already said that kiting is something that should be lessened yet arms warriors got juggernaut mere days from its release... this was again a nerf brought on by a QQ bandwagon. The mere fact that Warriors are choosing to PVProt instead of Arms shows exactly how unbalanced arena has become for some classes.
Its no wonder so much of the game has turned towards PVE content, Blizzard simply is not putting the effort into balance (fixing) pvp that it should be.
crassh Jan 20th 2010 7:04PM
@moore
plz know the class and how the class operates in BOTH pve and pvp before posting.
Why?
The vast majority of readers you are going to get on this sight is pve'ers, and im willing to bet that the majority of big time arena players spend alot of time doing/enjoying pve content. (i have met very few arena only players out there, im sure they exist but compared to the number of pve players, or the pve/arena players, there (arena only)numbers are miniscule)
changes like you suggested are going to negetively effect a hell of alot more people than they are going to postively affect, hence all the downrated posts which i think are a result of your ill informed/thought up comments not just the usual pve player hateing on anything pvp.
Solution?
im not to sure, but from what i have read from here as well as various other posts on different sights the problem is not our utility being over powered, its the armor pen. stacking prot warrior bursting you down to nuthin in a few secons flat. come up with a new stategy to handle them? you do have other players on your team you know, comunicate with them, and unless you dont comunicate with them your not going anywhere in arena no matter what your group comp is or your opponents. otherwise deal with it because the problem is going away as soon as xpac comes out anyways.
sorry im not trying to troll on moore but this column got me very fired up by all the replies that are obviously coming from someone who has never spent any amount of time as level 80 protection spec warrior.
and yes i am, and always will be a prot warrior who pve's most of the time but loves the arena, AND im not the only class that can global you to nothing in the span of a few seconds, seen it done and had it done to me maney times. trust me, prot warriors are not stepping into arenas and instantley owning any and everyone who goes up against them