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1-11-2010 @ 7:08PM
Good to see suggestions that will further gimp Prot Warriors in PVE.
1-11-2010 @ 7:21PM
The only suggestions I posted that would be even a slight nerf to protection warriors in PvE is a reduction in damage (which is needed, Ghostcrawler has already posted this), and a second shave on two stuns.If we tunnel vision one issue hard enough, I'm sure we can be upset about slight nerfs. All we have to do is try.
1-11-2010 @ 7:30PM
I agree, I hate to see suggestions like this, the last thing my prot warrior tank needs is FEWER tools to control caster mobs in PvE. If they really want to hurt prot for PvP and leave PvE how it is, why not take a couple of those stun abilities and add "does not work against players" to them.
1-11-2010 @ 7:38PM
Ok, this is compleate crap! Warlocks have been one of the best pvp classes from the start of the game and now that a warrior is something that isn't something that you can kill by facerolling you cry nerf instead of finding ways to deal with it
1-11-2010 @ 7:41PM
The problem here is that Christian is not understand WHY prot warriors do more DPS in PvP, or is ignoring it. It's Armor Pen. Prot warriors in PvP stack armor pen. The way to reduce their DPS in PvP (not PvE, where they don't wear the stuff) is to make Shield Slam ignore armor.Buh, you say? Make the big damage swing ignore armor and that'll help? Yes, because it can then be tuned to hit for less than it does now and it won't gimp tanking warrior threat or damage, but it will greatly reduced PvP Prot DPS because their big shield slam crits will no longer be for as much because they won't be penetrating armor. You can stack all the ArP you like, Shield Slam won't go up if it already ignores armor. So lower Shield Slam's damage now, make it ignore armor, you've removed damage from prot PvP without touching prot PvE.
1-11-2010 @ 7:42PM
If you could link to the place where GC said Prot Warriors needed a PVE dps nerf, I'd love to see it.
1-11-2010 @ 7:43PM
Yep Rossi, that's one solution. That will only affect one spell, however. Damage needs to be reduced around the board.You mentioned in our podcast together that you don't care how much damage you do as long as the mob dies and everyone lives. That's a good attitude.If we up your threat modifiers but lower your damage, that solves both our problems.
1-11-2010 @ 7:45PM
Decoy:They need a reduction in damage in PvP.The only suggestions I posted that would be even a slight nerf to protection warriors in PvE *STOP* is a reduction in damage (which is needed, Ghostcrawler has already posted this), and a second shave on two stuns.Ghostcrawler talked about reducing damage from Prot Warriors in PvP. I thought that my comment explained this, but I guess not. I can still pull up the quote for you if you want.
1-11-2010 @ 7:51PM
"...slight nerf to protection warriors in PvE is a reduction in damage (which is needed, Ghostcrawler has already posted this)..."But yes, I can see how you might think people (and based on the other replies in this post I'm not even remotely close to being the only one) want to read it the way you want them to, rather than how it actually plays out.
1-11-2010 @ 7:55PM
A 1 second shave off of stuns is a huge deal when you have a 6 second cool down on t-clap. Tanking multiple mobs is not easy with a prot warrior. Shockwave is important because it keeps the mobs in one place till a t-clap can be set off again.
1-11-2010 @ 9:25PM
I agree, STOP balancing the game around PVP. If it's that big of a deal, make a new tree that can only be used in PVP, or split the rules so it only impacts players. I'm tired of PVE getting screwed over by unbalanced PVP. It's the same reason I hate the faction champ fight. Keep my PVP and PVE apart.
1-11-2010 @ 9:51PM
"You mentioned in our podcast together that you don't care how much damage you do as long as the mob dies and everyone lives. That's a good attitude."It's a fine attitude, but the fact of the matter is that the DPS a tank does in a fight also contributes to the end goal of the mob dying, and warrior tank DPS is already low.
1-11-2010 @ 10:02PM
As others have mentioned, ArP and the gearing choices of these (rare, mind you!) Prot PvPers is the problem. Lowering Prot damage is not a solution unless implemented as Matt suggested above. Why? I present PvE encounter Exhibit A: Festergut 25man. Now, some tanks can do considerably more damage than others when offtanking (looking at Ferals in particular) but say you have access to 3-4 tanks, none of them a feral druid. Warriors do VASTLY less damage in PvE than any of our counterparts, including Ferals in Bear form, in progression gear. The damage and TPS output you see on log sites that are the exception to this, are prot warriors using a mix of DPS gear and weaponry instead of full mitigation gear for progression. In this situation, as the raid leader, when your raid is up against a hard enrage wall and you're wiping around 1%, and assuming your DPS are all about equivalent - you bench the tank. You know, the one that's doing 1k less DPS than all the other tanks even though he's holding threat against that one guy that is always above 9k DPS. I've had it with shortsighted PvP players that recommend or somehow think that it's ok to smack the lowest damage dealing tanks in PvE with a nerf to our damage output. We don't have DK cooldowns, we don't have get-out-of-death-free Ardent Defender, but we do have utility and that's the only reason you see us around anymore. Take that away, nerf our damage again, and you'll see no warrior tanks in progression content within a week.It'll happen. This has to be solved another way. Matt's suggestion is the ONLY one I've yet seen that has any possible merit.
1-11-2010 @ 10:39PM
server: the venture cotoon: Ramandujust putting that there for any that wants to armory me. I have been playing a Prot warrior for my guild from the pre BC days and a warrior for longer than that. small guild so no we are not cutting edge. I have followed this class for longer then most on here have been playing this game. the one game mechanic i have never understood is damage vs survivability. now i do not mean DPS, damage, the numbers that a skill puts out when it hits. WHY oh WHY must a warrior tank give up damage to get either threat or survivability. In fact the whole threat idea is just silly when you already do damage to a mob. why do i need a piss the guy off portion of a skill to exist? Oh yeah because for some reason when i swing this massive axe with my massively armored and muscled arm, I'm going to hit softer then this other guy...blizzard needs to stop screwing over PVE because then cant balance PVP. the real answer is simple. either make some skills not function in PVP like this already do with several professions and skills or have the skills damage formula change for PVP. I should not have to work harder in PVE to preform my role because some dev keeps getting owned on his/her mage when a warrior picks on them in PVP
1-11-2010 @ 10:55PM
"The only suggestions I posted that would be even a slight nerf to protection warriors in PvE is a reduction in damage (which is needed, Ghostcrawler has already posted this), and a second shave on two stuns."Actually, you also suggested the removal of the Gag Order effects from Shield Bash and Heroic Throw, turning the silences into interrupts. While the former *might* be acceptable (I'd rather not lose the ability because spellcasters in arenas are having problems), the latter is too much. That is the only caster pull we warriors have in PVE. And frankly, I'm tired of having to retool my rotations, my gear, my glyphs, and my tactics because a tiny fraction of players are having heartburn over the performance of prot warriors in *arenas*.
1-12-2010 @ 12:22AM
I've been prot since day one on my main (literally), considering my warrior started his life of tanking on 11/23/04 after he reached level 10. I'd played several classes/specs in beta and I knew what direction I intended to go when WoW was released for public consumption, so I hit the ground running with friends in tow and never looked back when the time came. I've seen and experienced almost everything a prot warrior can take part in with rare exception, and all I really have to say about these proposed changes is...I am not amused. Not even a little bit.The changes to prot warrior mechanics when Lich King arrived were very welcome and appreciated, and I've enjoyed them immensely. After so many ups and downs prior to that, a genuine attempt to get us on track and enjoyable again was very welcome. The Warbringer talent single-handedly helped me to enjoy a class that I was slowly getting frustrated with due to all of the druid and paladin tanking competition, especially in Kara. I've tried to maintain equal footing against paladins and druids in instances like Kara and Obsidian Sanctum, and I've often found myself relegated to OT status because I have better situational awareness than most and have incredible mobility, but less survivability. Now, I'm hearing that one of our greatest strengths to help us maintain our viability when compared to the tanking mechanics of others is being nerfed because of a small number of warriors running as prot in arenas and the thought leaves me feeling... frustrated. Very. Frustrated.Nevermind that a lack of abilities like Agent Defender are single-handedly insuring we're second-rate tanks, even after instance mechanics like Chill Of The Throne are introduced. Nevermind the fact that trying to tank-kite oozes in ICC against healer aggro is next to impossible for warriors, but relatively simple for paladins and DKs. Nevermind that our damage output is inferior to other tank classes by a noticeable margin. Nevermind all that. Let's nerf warrior damage some more, nerf their Warbringer talent to limit their mobility, and nerf their stuns AND their silences. What else can we do to them in the name of balance and fairness? Oh, I know! Let's mess with their block mechanics so that they'll take more damage from large numbers of adds that hit for small amounts but quickly, which subsequently nerfs their AOE threat, AOE damage, and their ability to AOE tank in general! Brilliant!I'm apparently pretty worked up about this one. I'll quit while I'm behind.
1-12-2010 @ 10:15AM
@KurdonAs a Pally tank that has a lvl 80 warrior that i tried to tank with i feel your pain, but make no mistake ardent defender is not that much better then survival instinct for druids and last stand for warriors...to be honest i would like to have a talent that increased my health pool on demand so that ardent defender wouldn't proc until i wanted/needed it to. You could get the same basic effect by using last stand and enraged regen - or SI FR as a druid it's not that big of a booster it just is auto so it makes it easier for the people that really don't know how to play their class to survive that big spike damage that Blizz loves hitting the tank with...to be honest this has become more of a omg i have to over heal everyone type of game and that really saddens me. To the point of the column though once that start to strip down the main keys in a group (healer-tank) then we can all be happy with the great amount of time it will take us to run back from the GY for each wipe. I for one will not be caught dead in a group that wipes more then four times in a Heroic if there really is nothing the tank can do to help it, myself included. I stopped tanking for awhile while the pathing bug was getting worked out, but when they start to nerf threat gen, and mobility in favor of making PVP more enjoyable will be the last day I will be tanking with anything other then the flavor of the patch.TL-DR roll another tank, and they will change how they look at warriors.....or judging by how they like to handle things nerf the newest flavor of the month and make them as crappy as the tank you just came from.
1-12-2010 @ 11:43AM
I was with you until the gag order and heroic throw nerf. A nerf to these two talents would severely hurt the already lacking AoE threat of a PvE warrior. Especially when pallies can silence pull up to 3 casters and we have one. A heroic throw nerf wouldn't even be that effective in PvP as it doesn't bring PCs to the user only NPCs. Is a mage going to get upset enough to go hit the warrior with a staff? No. If anythng, just make it an interrupt in PvP not a silence but leave the talent alone when it's in PvE. MAybe make it a min/max range ability like shooting? Also the damage of a prot warrior is a problem....sorta. In PvP a shield slam can get some AMAZING damage. This is only single target damage though. This devastating in Arena but mildly effective in PvE. So, take away some of the single target damage but replace it with some AoE damage and threat. A pallies consecrate and a death knights D&D does a constant tick of damage. When isolated it seems negligable but added up during a pull, makes for some decent numbers. The warrior equivalent TC/ shocwave is an instant bit of damage with some threat. What I'd like to see is a talent that stacks with Deep wounds and TC. Essentially making TC similar to consecrate. A warrior would keep a low DPS, high threat dot on any mob hit by thunder clap. Then blizz can hit SS with the nerf bat. THWACK !
1-12-2010 @ 3:15PM
I can't agree with comparing Argent Defender to other, manually-activated survival abilities. In ToGC, I've watched far too often as AD insured the paladin tank's survival while the warrior tanks went down before the healers could rescue them, especially fights like Gormok. You can proactively use your abilities during transitions that you know carry the greatest mortal risk, but it's still no comparison.I've tried both DK and paladin tanking, and I loathe both. Paladin tanking is nothing short of boring by comparison, and DK tanking is only slightly less boring and too reliant upon a double dependency mechanic of both runic power excess and slow rune cooldowns to be enjoyable for me. Can they get the job done? Certainly. Can they get the job done better than my warrior can? Oftentimes, yes. Are they as enjoyable for me to play? Not even close. Will I resort to using them as alternative choices for helping my guild with progression raids in my usual role of tank? Highly unlikely. In truth, I'll likely quit WoW before that happens. But that's my line in the sand I've drawn for myself, primarily because my main has always been my main and the time invested in that toon that I would lose by turning my back on him is staggering. I'm one of those "legacy" tanks that someone mentioned elsewhere recently, and I don't think I could approach the game any other way at this point and enjoy myself.
1-12-2010 @ 3:43PM
Some of the comments in this article are full of failRossi has the right of it. Its the warriors sitting at 100% passive ArP who are laying out the hurt.ArP isnt the issue.Gag order is MINDLESSLY USEFUL in PvE! Wanna get that nasty Caster add to come closer on deathwhisper? H.Throw and Gag order.Remove ArP from shield bash. I can eve almost concede that Conc Blow or Skillwave need to become a daze even. But dammit leave my only tool to pull caster mobs alone please.At least we agree that the warbringer nurf will do nothing
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