15 Minutes of Fame: Philosophically speaking
by Lisa Poisso 
Jan 12th 2010 at 5:00PM
Whoa ... Was that a book on WoW and philosophy on that display rack? Why yes, it was. World of Warcraft and Philosophy, edited by Luke Cuddy and John Nordlinger, has been attracting double-takes in bookstores since last fall. With selections by philosophers from all over the globe, the book covers issues topics such as ethics, economics, gender identity and metaphysics through WoW-tinted lenses. But this is no dusty, academic tome. Roleplaying, cybersex and the infamous Corrupted Blood plague are all on the menu in this lively, readable tome targeted at fans of WoW.
Editor John Nordlinger is just the sort of guy you'd expect to find behind such an eclectic project. The former senior research program manager at Microsoft is California-bound, moving from work in high-tech education to studying film production at USC. We visited with John while he was in transition about some of the realities behind World of Warcraft and Philosophy.
Main character Nordom (currently retired)
Guild Terror Nova
Server Eitrigg
WoWstyle Altaholic, with characters Nordom, Minsk, Thane, Anaah, Dakcon and Trias all from my favorite RPG, Planescape Torment
15 Minutes of Fame: You've said that you created World of Warcraft and Philosophy specifically for WoW players. Why would the typical player who's not particularly philosophically oriented pick up this book?
John Nordlinger: To learn the best way to grow within a virtual world.
What sort of ethical issues face WoW players?
Being kind in times of stress. Treating females (real or virtual) appropriately. Learning to control addiction.
Yes. People try new things -- aggression, selfishness, griefing -- in virtual space, but more tepidly in real life.
Have you observed that the whole "I'm going to ninja/abuse others in Trade chat/whatever because I can" phenomenon is something that most players indulge in and then move past, or do you see that players continue to twist the boundaries of what's acceptable and what's possible when they're online?
Many folks push the envelope in good behavior due to being able to hide behind their avatar. (This is) aggravated by intense game scenarios (such as) raids, PvP, etc.
You've said that one aim of World of Warcraft and Philosophy was to learn the best way to grow within a virtual world.
By growth, I meant wisdom. I hope players who read it will become more insightful and kind. Teaching ethical stories tied into the players' experiences is the best way to teach a new philosophical concept.
We see a lot of player friction among differently geared and experienced players thrown together by the Dungeon Finder tool. Can you shed any light onto the root of the problem and possible solutions?
I think it is due to immature ages, slower, older players and also gender conflicts.
Can you give any specific examples, either from the book or directly, that illustrate applying some of the ideas in the book to "solving" these problems?In regards to when young teenage males are in a raid, they often act either condescending or overzealous -- for instance, a tank rushing into a dangerous crowd without regard for his teammates or a mage lecturing a healer for not responding quick enough. Through empathy or playing a few alts, you often get to see literally what wearing another's shoes provides. A tank with a healer alt is often more patient. A mage that also has a tank often can appreciate the challenge of holding agro. Etc -- a simple lesson to see things from another's perspective.
We understand you're transitioning away from your career in high-tech education. What was your work at the Games for Learning Institute all about?
The Games for Learning Institute is an amazing initiative to investigate what makes games fun, (how) games transfer intellectual concepts and prototype what the psychologists (developmental and cognitive) and educators discover.
Can you tell us more about your film production work and Allegory of the Game?
I took a film course at Bellevue Community College and wrote, directed and produced a movie necessary for my USC grad application. The topic was Plato's allegory of the cave, but swapping a cave for a MMOG. (Check out the Allegory of the Game.)
Any plans for future projects?
Not sure yet, but I'd love to make a movie about the financial fiasco.
Thanks for taking the time to chat during your transition, John, and best of luck with your film studies!
"I never thought of playing WoW like that!" - neither did we, until we talked with these players. From an Oscar-winning 3-D effects director to a rising pop singer ... from a quadriplegic player to a bunch of guys who get together for dinner and group raiding in person every week ... Catch our 2009 year-end retrospective for a year's worth of WoW personalities.Filed under: WoW Social Conventions, Features, Interviews, 15 Minutes of Fame
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Nimyane Jan 12th 2010 5:11PM
I wish he'd elaborated a bit more.
Meadow Jan 12th 2010 5:30PM
I would have liked more elaboration too. Also, his answer to what ethical issues WoW players face is treating females appropriately? Doesn't that assume that the WoW players he's talking about are not female? I was a bit off-put by that.
Treating females appropriately is definitely important, but so is treating males appropriately. Just treat everyone appropriately and you'll have it covered.
RetadinMan Jan 12th 2010 6:32PM
And he says he wants everyone to be treated with respect.
He propagates negative stereotypes of teenage males.
Ratskinmahoney Jan 12th 2010 6:57PM
I think he may be referring to the whole 'men who roll female toons are freaks' thing. One thing that I noticed in my early days of WoW (as a male with a female toon) was that people do treat you differently when they think you are female. A lot of the hatred of 'gender-bending' in WoW comes from people who have behaved 'innapropriately' towards females (from patronising or condascending attitudes at the shallow end, through to indecent proposition or graphic obscenity at the deep) only to discover that they were actually male. If such people had treated the characters with which they had interacted with respect, then they would have had no cause for embarrassment on learning of their mistake.
I certainly found the experience 'enlightening' (read 'disturbing'). It gave me a lot more perspective on the treatment of females in 'RL'. I shouldn't, but do, feel the need to make my in game chat as masculine as possible in order to avoid such treatment.
Terethall Jan 12th 2010 11:27PM
Having bought and read the book over Christmas break, I have to say that I found it to be just as lacking as Mr. Nordlinger's interview. The essays which don't completely fail at conveying the philosophical concepts they aspire to are usually utterly void of WoW knowledge or content. If you're the kind of person who lives and breathes philosophy, you'll rage at this book because of how far it has bastardized and corrupted the original concepts. if you live and breathe WoW, you'll be frustrated because over 50% of the authors have clearly never gotten a character above level 20 and the extent of their analogy between WoW and philosophy consists of "HURR DURR PLAY WOW BECOME UBERMENCH" and "Blizzard is evil for delivering bans to people who try to crash their game."
And if you are neither a big fan of WoW or a big fan of philosophy, why read this book? As a fan of both, I did not find it worth the time or price.
thebvp Jan 12th 2010 5:41PM
As a Philosophy student, myself, I can’t tell you how many times it infuriated me when some freshman would write a paper comparing something in pop culture to whatever we were studying in class. First it was the Matrix and Plato, then Fight Club and Nietzsche. I wasn’t angry at the students, but at the writers of said productions for doing a disservice to Philosophy. If the parallels were intentional, they’re superficial at best, and if you think Tyler Durden is really the embodiment of the Ubermensch, you don’t understand Nietzche. The comparison is there, but… not really.
After I graduated, however, my view changed dramatically. It’s pretty amazing how void the world outside the academic bubble is of Philosophy. Most everything the media produces these days is extremely vacuous. It’s also pretty amazing how much the discipline has pushed away from mass culture as a whole to the point of near irrelevance. When people hear that I studied Philosophy, they usually take me for some sort of loopy theologist who has nothing important to say whatsoever and spends most of their day thinking about ridiculous questions. Perhaps if I wasn’t so eager to push away, people would be a bit more understanding. Perhaps I should embrace Plato and the Matrix, because anything that gets people thinking about the topic is worthwhile. Perhaps I should stop being arrogant, maybe people will stop thinking that I’m arrogant.
With that said, there are a number of really good pop culture adaptations of Philosophers and their ideas. The For Beginners series, for example, is absolutely amazing.
With that said, I greet this book with a small amount of skepticism, but am really hopeful that it’s a good read and does a thorough job, while remaining accessible to everyone. Perhaps it could be like those For Beginners books.
One topic I really think is interesting in respects to WoW is game theory. It has a [i]lot[/i] to say about raiding, forming guilds, 5 mans, and group work in general. There is quite a bit there and I hope he covers the topic. =)
Thraelys Jan 12th 2010 5:57PM
It's funny you referenced Plato and The Matrix, in my Philosophy class last semester my teacher actually showed the beginning of the movie as a parallel to Plato's cave. I thought it was a useful tactic by him to really show how Philosophy is actually used outside of being the Thinker statue.
On a side note, I bought this book to use as a source for a thesis paper in my english class last semester. Good read and it contributed to my A in the course. =P
Ratskinmahoney Jan 12th 2010 7:02PM
It's a popular comparison, though The Matrix analogues Buddhist 'conceptions' of reality a lot better than the Platonic.
Serr Jan 13th 2010 4:48PM
I think you are making some overly broad statements here. I was a rhetoric major, which while having a lot of overlap with philosophy has some fundamental differences I know we could probably spend the rest of our lives debating (I
Serr Jan 13th 2010 4:50PM
Alright, well, I'm not re-writing my wall of text.
Suffice to say, "I Disagree!"
*dashes off into the crowd*
bennet Jan 12th 2010 5:41PM
I tend to disagree with his claim that people behave differently (implicitly, worse) in game than in real life. Anyone who has to make a daily commute in a big city is likely to be involved with "aggression, selfishness, and griefing," far more often than they'd like. A case could be made that it's remoteness from immediate consequences rather than virtuality that makes some folks behave the way they do in WoW...
Ratskinmahoney Jan 12th 2010 7:14PM
Yeah, but see the comparison. When you place people behind a 'mask' of some kind, whether it be a car or a WoW character, they cease to interact with each other as they would face-to-face, they lose empathy and start to permit of themselves behaviours that they would consider unacceptable in 'RL'.
You've probably noticed as well that in very rude cities (i.e. places such as New York, or London where the general standard of interaction involves very little courtesy) that people rarely make eye-contact. It's as though they are attempting to preserve the illusion that those around them are not real persons in order to avoid the exhaustive strain of empathising with them.
WoW is not exclusive in being an environment in which this kind of behaviour occurs, but it is unique in providing such exaggerated and protracted examples of it for analysis, which is precisely why a book like this has so much potential.
Lornicide Jan 12th 2010 5:42PM
No offense, but yeah, kind of short and not much info on the book. Some excerpts would have been nice.
I agree w/ Nim and Meadow, more elaboration would have been nice and the whole treating females part (though I agree) kind of came out of left field.
In the article was way to short to be very interesting.
Irk Jan 12th 2010 5:44PM
I bought this book for a friend as a Christmas present (he plays WoW and studies Maths and Philsophy) he just lent it to me and it's a great book. It has a really broad range of topics and I'd recommend it for any intelligent WoW player.
Cobalt Jan 12th 2010 5:47PM
Minsc isn't from PS:T!
And THANE is a word that ANY Planescape: Torment fan should never ever utter.
thebvp Jan 12th 2010 6:12PM
Thraelys,
The analogy works well as a decent introduction to people who aren’t familiar with it. Other than that, when I was in school, it was basically the equivalent of sociological papers on MMOs, something which was overdone and drove people within the discipline absolutely insane. Oh, look, another paper on The Matrix. Oh, look, another paper on Fight Club.
If I taught an introductory class, I would probably show a brief clip of The Matrix, because it does work at one level and get people thinking.
splodesondeath Jan 12th 2010 6:12PM
I like what he said about the alts allowing players to empathize (sp?) more. My main's a mage, and I know I'm an aggro monkey. However, I have a healer/tank druid alt, and once he dinged 80 I really started to notice how these jobs really stood out.
I would recommend to any player to try a different role for a change; it's a lot more fun than complaining about your class' nerfs or buffs on the Damage-Dealing Forums.
Metatron Jan 12th 2010 6:26PM
I am currently reading his book. I must say I was pretty skeptical before buying it and read more than the usual amount of reviews before deciding to go through with it. As I read it, I must say I am pleasantly surprised and that it's not a bad read at all. Considering he has so much to write about player behavior and gender differences in the book, I find it kind of shocking he was so brief here; seems almost disinterested.
Kelly Jan 17th 2010 10:25AM
This book is actually a part of a series to bring together pop-culture and philosophy. I'm reading the "Final Fantasy and Philosophy" book and definitely have had some issues with it. A professor I know illustrates the issue the best--he wrote a piece for the Final Fantasy book and it was accepted. However, they then wanted him to cut his 25 page essay to 13 pages, and then later to 7 pages. He refused, and pulled the essay from the book. Much like this interview, I feel like the books gloss over the real material (the academia) to focus on explaining the culture of the game.
Ratskinmahoney Jan 12th 2010 7:19PM
Yeah, books like this are always intended to appeal to those whose primary interest is, in this case WoW, rather than philosophy. So they do tend to sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter. If you're really interested in philosophy, buy a book on philosophy.