Abilities I usually wish didn't exist in 5-mans

Not all tanks will have the same degree of irritation with all of the following skills (for example, I play a druid, and because bears don't have a ranged silence, a knockback on a caster mob is much more likely to annoy me than, say, a death knight tank), but I promise you that they've all been mentioned by my tanking colleagues as abilities with a high chance of blowing a pull.
Thunderstorm, Typhoon, and Blast Wave
Some of you may recall that I have written on the subject of knockbacks before. I wasn't really fond of them in 5-mans then, and I'm not really fond of them now.
When they're awesome: If you're knocking something toward a tank, knocking a loose mob away from the healer, or you're a boomkin and Typhoon is the only way you have to interrupt, say, the Ghostly Priest's heal in heroic Halls of Reflection, then a knockback can be at least be helpful. I'm not going to lie and say that the annoyance factor will vanish, but I will grudgingly concede that you're using it for a good reason.
Why tanks hate them: I don't build aggro on stuff I can't hit. Beyond that, the number of players who stop and think about the results of blowing caster or ranged mobs away from a tank is vanishingly small. If I've line-of-sighted a pull and dragged the mobs into a narrow area, it's because I want them in that specific position, and line-of-sight is the only way I have to force them to come into tankable range. If you knock them away from me, a ranged mob is going to stand wherever you just put them and keep trying to kill me, and I can't silence casters to force them to mosey on over. My only silence is also a stun, which doesn't help the positioning issue. While other tanks can deal with caster mobs a little more easily than bears can, there's no guarantee that their interrupt is off cooldown or that they'll be able to silence multiple enemies to get them to move again.
The bottom line is that, even deployed correctly, knockbacks play havoc with where the tank actually wants the mobs.
Divine Storm and Bladestorm
When they're awesome: At any point after I've had the chance to beat on the mobs for longer than 1-2 seconds.
Why tanks hate them: Because that never happens.
Army of the Dead
When it's awesome: Did the healer disconnect? Is this phase 2 or 3 of the Black Knight in Trial of the Champion or...well, pretty much at any point in heroic HoR's trash waves? Is a pull going to hell, I'm about to die, and the healer's out of commission? Not only is that a great time for AotD, but I'll also thank you afterwards for having the foresight to pop it in these circumstances.
Why tanks hate it: On any boss or mob with a frontal cone attack, cleave, or tail swipe, AotD is usually more trouble than it's worth. The enemy will just keep spinning around to target and stomp ghouls on all sides of them, which means that the mob is basically uncontrollable for as long as the ghouls are still up. On any boss encounter or trash pull where the mobs being uncontrollable is a highly undesirable occurrence, please rethink pulling out the little beasties. Healers will also hate you for popping Army on, say, Keristrasza and getting them tail-swiped out of the party's range.
Feign Death
Why it's awesome: Because it exists.
Why tanks hate it: Because Murphy's Law dictates that the people who actually need to use it are the ones who don't seem to have it hotkeyed.
Death Grip
When it's awesome: There are a lot of places in Wrath dungeons where it is not particularly convenient (or sometimes even possible) to line-of-sight a pull. If you Death Grip a caster or ranged mob over to the group for me -- say, an Ahn'kahar Spell Flinger charging up a Shadow Blast -- I will be your bestest buddy for the rest of the run.
Why tanks hate it: The odds of your running across a DPS death knight who uses Death Grip correctly seems to occur at a rate of around 1%. Far more common is the DPS DK who impatiently pulls the next group before you do, but lacks the sense to at least pull a caster mob while doing it. The inevitable result is a melee enemy beating on the death knight while I run around like a giant idiot trying to grab aggro on the rest of the pull while taunting a caster who refuses to move.
Frost Nova
When it's good: Did I miss an enemy or get stunned straight off the pull? Is some nasty little mob running for the group and I'm gouged/stunned/feared/silenced and unable to taunt? Pop it under those circumstances and you're gold. Did you Frost Nova a runner? Thank you. No, seriously.
Why tanks hate it: From a tank's perspective, Frost Nova is much like knockbacks in that it plays havoc with positioning. For the period where the mobs are completely rooted, there is nothing we can do to position or reposition the pull in order to avoid damage or respond to a nearby patrol. It's also not unusual for a Frost Nova'd pull to have multiple enemies scattered just out of melee range of each other, with me in the middle desperately trying to convince all of them to hate me more than you while you're charging up a giant Blizzard or Flamestrike. The rest of the DPS, seeing you unload, has started doing the exact same thing. I blew Challenging Roar the last time you pulled that stunt, and it ain't up now. Good luck!
Worst of all is a mage who pulls aggro and then panics and frost novas the mob/s. Not only is the pull now likely to be split between two groups of mobs, but a rooted mob will instantly aggro whoever's next to them regardless of threat, and that's a great way to get someone who wasn't doing anything wrong killed.
Any ability that allows you to hit a mob right after I've pulled it but before it reaches me
When it's awesome: Pretty much never, unless you are a hunter pulling something into a trap.
Why tanks hate it: The moment I see a DPS hack/shoot/cast at a mob while the pull is still on its way over, I know I'm in for a long run. Not every mob pack is positioned in a way that makes it possible for me to charge in and build threat without aggroing more packs, in which case I will stand at range and pull it. I will have a limited amount of threat on the mob on whom I slapped a Feral Faerie Fire, but on everything else, the only thing that makes them hate me more than you is the fact that I just made their buddy mad. If you so much as sneeze in their direction, they will immediately turn your way and try to kill you. While I know it's annoying to wait 2-3 seconds while the pull runs my way before you start DPS, I die a little inside when the pull is a disorganized mess and not a neatly-arranged little clump in a spot that's convenient for everyone and easily AoE'd in the event that AoE is possible.
Behavior like this makes me not want to PUG as a tank through the Dungeon Finder. Please -- help me help you!
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances
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Reader Comments (Page 6 of 17)
Possum Jan 13th 2010 3:15AM
Healer tunnel vision, they're all crazy matyrs
zweitblom Jan 13th 2010 3:17AM
No offense, but have you ever played a healer? At the point a pull goes bad - and stray mobs are a tell-tale sign of that - the healer is actually *busy healing* his or her ass off. Yes, that means that often they can't spare the two seconds to move out of melee range of a nova'd mob.
So please, do NOT freeze mobs next to healers. Slow them, put chill on them, hell, even try to kite them (better you die than them), just do not make the healer's job any more complicated.
poissondemer Jan 12th 2010 8:31PM
As a frost mage, I totally agree that Forst Nova on an already fine pull is pointless. If the tank has the aggro, why would you do that?
On a side note, I usually stand rather far away from mobs, but if I happen to pull one by accident, or because the tank is focused on other things, I pop up my ice barrier. I have the talent that auto freezes the enemy when the ice barrier is broken from too much damage. This gives me a chance to either signal the tank or kite the enemy if I must. Since I stand so far away (as a mage should), my auto Frost Nova doesn't hit the mobs that are aggroed nicely. I think this can save a bad pull from becoming worse, as a bit of crowd control (OMG, she said crowd control) can be good.
And it doesn't have the "theres-a-sheep-I-should-kill-it" effect that some people tend to display.
You know who you are hunters. >_>
(I'm kidding about that hunter part, I hate warlocks, no worries)
Pyromelter Jan 12th 2010 8:37PM
As a PvE frost mage, you shouldn't have the talent that frost nova's mobs on ice barrier breaking (unless you are running heroics in your pvp spec, which would be acceptable if that's your only spec). Casting ice barrier itself is a dps loss; and really, if you are dying in heroics without ice barrier up, you're either getting really bad healers or really bad tanks who can't hold aggro. Only places I can think where ice barrier really helps is on keristrasza and garfrost (unavoidable stacking AoE); but then again, if you are arcane and keep your frost ward up, that helps immeasurably more.
Most pve frost mages take Ice barrier as a filler talent, but not the extra talents that cause it to have a 100% chance to frost nova on breaking.
poissondemer Jan 12th 2010 10:23PM
@Pyromelter
I don't know about the tanks and healers in the 5-mans I'm doing (BC Content, not Heroics yet) but I have to say I like that I've developed what works for me. I'm cool with what other frost mages do, but what I do has worked wonders so far.
I leveled my mage to about 30 before doing any "research" about what you're "supposed" to do. I think sometimes this is immeasurably more fun than just being another frost mage with the same ol' talents as everyone else. Learning myself how to use my talents to my advantage and working this out in both solo-play and 5-mans has really helped me understand Mage-ing. I usually have pretty decent DPS (2nd below the DK, of course =D) and I have fun playing my character and customizing her.
Now, I'm aware that this might all change when I do get into Heroics. Looks as though I might have to dual-spec into squishy arcane for that... =D
WeirdJedi Jan 12th 2010 10:59PM
@poissondemer
Right on. I join a heroic and if anyone says anything, it will be "why are you frost spec, arcane is better". I even unloaded on one guy and said "Dude. Its a heroic. I like frost. I want to have fun. Don't spoil it." Surprised a lot of people when I was still doing the most damage.
Kylenne Jan 13th 2010 3:18AM
@poissondemer: Honestly, Frost is perfectly fine and acceptable as a spec for Heroics, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Unless you've got a rogue in the group you will probably top meters, and there are certain Heroics where Frost really shines. (Hell, I am pretty much full time Arcane but I still switch to my AoE Frost spec for the Tribunal of Ages.) Though I would still recommend Arcane over it at least as a fresh 80, because your #1 priority as a fresh 80 mage is to reach hit cap, and that is way easier to do as Arcane.
I will say this though. I was a diehard meter-topping Frost mage from the beginning of my WoW career, all through BC and only switched to Arcane after Wrath hit and it was obvious Frost was no longer competitive in a raid setting. I will tell you that I am a hundred times a better mage since switching to Arcane. Point blank. Why? The lack of safety net and oh shiz buttons as compared to Frost. I have far greater situational awareness simply because I can't rely on having a big frosty barrier to protect me if I eff up somehow, like accidentally stand in stuff. I have to watch my threat like a hawk because I can't rely on a short Ice Block CD to bail me out. It forced me to really use the entirety of my toolkit. I could go on, but really, changing from Frost just plain made me a better, smarter player.
One last thing: the speshul snowflake attitude is a bit silly. I find that far too many people with this attitude of "eff the cookie cutter specs, I'mma have fun MY way!" really fail to understand the mechanics of their class. Cookie cutter specs become standard for a reason, they are generally the best way to do things and there is little point in trying to re-invent the wheel. By all means, play what you love, but just like every freshman composition professor will tell you, learn and know the rules before you decide which ones you're going to bend or throw out. Or else you'll be the Arcane mage I was in a ToC25 pug with who had no idea why I was destroying him on the meters, and a look of his spec revealed no points in Incanter's Absorption (a debatable talent, but basically free dps given the prevalence of Disc priests bubble spamming these days), and none in Incineration (+crit to our main nuke, no earthly reason not to take it).
Pyromelter Jan 12th 2010 8:31PM
Army of the Dead would be fine if the stupid ghouls won't taunt.
I like the message of this post though. Too many DPS'ers aren't accustomed to using their snares and knockbacks properly. As someone who primarily plays a mage and an ele shaman, I've developed the skill to use Thunderstorm and frost nova... but it takes a while. A frost nova is great after running up the tunnel and reaching the end in the Pit of Saron... root all those mobs right there for the tank to aggro. Thunderstorm is perfect for knocking a mob back into a tank (besides off the LM ledge in AB >D). But it's hard for mages used to kiting to run towards a tank, and then frost nova that loose mob to the tank... but that is what we are supposed to do. Really hard to teach people that, because we are used to kiting and running/blinking away, it's counter-intuitive at first to run toward a big furball of melee enemies.
It's a rare skill, but one of the few fun things us dps'ers can do besides just blow the crap out of some computer generated enemy's hit points. Which is why I like this post... hopefully a few people out there will realize you can do this and will learn a bit from it.
Taytayflan Jan 12th 2010 8:32PM
If you die a little inside, how are you still alive?
Valt Jan 12th 2010 8:36PM
I agree with everything here. You forgot couple things tho.
Feign death:
I hate when hunter who ONLY uses it to prevent from dying. Thats really selfish. I know you like to save repair bills but you couldve also saved us by doing sick damage. I've seen lots of hunters just FD when 1 dps dies and just stay FD'd until tank gets overwhelmed and all but hunter dies.
Also I hate when hunters will rather concussive shot, trap, aspect of daze and run away rather than .. well FD. and wait for me to taunt it off. Ok sure, its player problem not ability..kinda.
Misdirect.
When it's awesome:
Tricky pulls? More aoe threat? Huge burst threat at start? Yes please! Use it when tank pulls.
Why tanks hate it:
Because of the new change, MD target wont get buff of MD. This really pisses me as tank because when Im suppos to set pace some huntard goes and pulls more and more mobs just because "he can with MD" and I cant click it off so im stuck with MD'd mob on me.
So yeah, im not tanking those adds you just pulled because healer has 10% mana and I have 24% hp and others just got ressed. What? we are gonna wipe again? No worries hunter..just FD and save repair bills..again.
DONT. USE. IT. BEFORE TANK PULLS. or you are asked to. Please.
t0xic Jan 13th 2010 10:49AM
I've heard people talking about hunters using MD and even rogues using TotT to pull for tanks. If that ever happens to me on my pally tank I know exactly where the bubble button is, and I'm not afraid to use it.
t0xic Jan 13th 2010 11:19AM
I guess I should elaborate a bit. I realize the hunter can just FD; the rogue can just Vanish. The point is, when I bubble, and put the threat back on them and they use an aggro dump it becomes the GROUP's problem. It's one thing when you annoy a tank. It's quite another when you threaten the entire group with a wipe. They are much more willing to vote kick when they realize just how selfish these individuals are.
Killchrono Jan 12th 2010 8:40PM
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
These are all the things I've thought about bad pug players but have been too afraid to say since they'll just berate me for 'not knowing how to play (their) class.' Nothing annoys me more than when a DPS casts a knockback spell and throws out my positioning.
Also, Army of the Dead. HATE. See bellow:
'ZOMG YOU NOOB TANK THE BOSS TURNED AND CLEAVED ME! YOU SUCK!'
kaateri.shandris Jan 12th 2010 8:41PM
Thank you SO VERY MUCH for writing this. Here is my hate list as a tank:
1. AotD
2. Knockbacks
3. DG
4. People who run away from the tank when a mob is on them.
5. Frost Nova
I put Frost Nova at the end, b'cuz I have not seen that many mages use it wrong.
Dwarftank Jan 12th 2010 8:44PM
Amen sister--to all of them.
Utalin Jan 12th 2010 8:42PM
Yesterday, someone used AotD on Mal'Ganis, and he cast Sleep on the actual tank. Thankfully, that happened when MG had less than 10% health, so the DPS just pounded him down. Any earlier and it would have been a wipe.
Vargg(firetree) Jan 12th 2010 8:46PM
I have reached the point in tanking random dungeons, where if the dps decides to pull for me, not use assist, or just aoes and pulls threat, I let them die and deal with the repair bill. Following their death, I give instructions on how to assist, or how to let a tank pull. A dps that does not now how to assist is NOT a good DPS. Your numbers don't matter if you can't understand basic game mechanics.
Plan Jan 12th 2010 8:53PM
"My current favourite peeve is dps who can't manage their threat calling the tank or other dps bad because they only understand nuke, and link the meters over and over on trash, yet stay oddly quiet after boss fights..."
While I'll agree with you that there are seemingly endless numbers of incompetent DPS, let's not pretend there's this reserve of amazing tanks working their way through the LFG tool.
Case in point: I joined a random FoS run the other night, and the first thing the tank says to the party is this: "If you die, it's because you're stupid and it's your own fault."
Great way to start off a run, eh?
And, invariably, on every pull I waited until the tank had time to gain aggro, and used my Wind Shear on every cool down, but I was still getting aggro -- constantly. In the meantime, there was almost always a loose mob running around, hitting the healer or the DPS.
And so I asked, politely, if the tank was having problems getting aggro, and of course he (a guy playing a female toon) responded in the nastiest way possible that I didn't know what I was doing.
On another run (HoR) that same day, we went through four healers, with the tank bitching about every one of them. It got to the point where I had to tell him the healing could not have been the problem if we were on our fourth healer and he still wasn't happy.
Let's be honest here: Most good tanks can fill up a five-man run with guildies very quickly, and do not need to use the LFG system. Of the ones who do use it, some are undoubtedly good tanks, but a large number are simply incompetent.
Moral of the story? There are bad players of every class, spec and role.
FoxOfWar Jan 13th 2010 2:44AM
Tank bitching to a healer? Well, that's one of the most surefire ways to see a bad tank. I've leveled two tanks now, and I've NEVER bitched to a healer. Even once when the "healer" on a latenight random was an elemental shaman obviously signed as healer for faster queue, who was obviously also completely smashed and we almost wiped twice on DTK because he didn't cast a single heal(my Improved Leader of the Pack was about 80% of healing done!). The dps were faster to complain than I was, really.
Point is, as tank, there is NEVER really a reason to yell at healer. 95% of the time, if the heal didn't come, there was a good reason for it. Even if something goes wrong, a friendly question as to why is better than bitching; you're much more likely to get heals for the rest of the instance if the healer doesn't hate you...
On topic: OH HELL YES. I so loathe AotD, and as bear tank, those knockbacks annoy me like no tomorrow. As far as I know, there are glyphs that kill the knockback for all three of those(correct me if I'm wrong). Death Grip(the 99% of the time it's used wrong) is pretty annoying, and of course the occasional Charge->lolstorm Arms warriors I come across.
"Any ability that allows you to hit a mob right after I've pulled it but before it reaches me." So. True. I have a special macro for those people that pull even before I cast my FFF:
/sit
/whistle
I also tell the healer to not waste mana on such cases, though these days most healers don't heal those people anyway(like I do when I'm healing).
DarkWalker Jan 13th 2010 12:32PM
You probably didn't have the "pleasure" of playing with a healer that only healed himself and the tank, saying that he was an arena healer.
In a Halls of Stone run (think Tribunal of Ages, where he let all DPSers die from stray damage before we were overwhelmed by the mobs; surprisingly we were able to down the previous bosses without much problem, despite the total absence of DPS healing).
Granted, that was the only time I gladly vote-kicked a healer.