Raid/PuG habits should be kept separate
by Matthew Rossi 
Jan 18th 2010 at 6:00PM
Last night I and a couple of guildmates signed up for a frost run and we ended up with two DPS and popped into Azjol-Nerub. I'd got myself a new fist weapon on my shammy and wanted to punch things in the face. Half way through the run, the healer sent me a tell asking me to inspect the DPS warrior we'd picked up. And yes, he was DPSing in Prot, with all of his talent points in the protection tree, in a mix of tanking and PvP gear. Yes, his DPS was low (I believe the proper phrase would be 'ridiculously low') and yes, he ran and pulled Hadronox instead of letting the person signed up to tank do it, and brought all the adds over as well. I was all set to blow a gasket at him, when I realized that this was a PuG. I'd never see the guy again. I was putting out enough DPS to cover for him, as was the hunter in the group. We burned down Hadronox, I briefly explained to the guy what the adds did, he apologized as this was all still very new to him and it was his first 80.
This led to a brief discussion while we were heading down to kill Anub'arak.
If you raid a lot, you get used to certain things. People are expected to be familiar with their class, their role, and the talents used to accomplish said role. You keep your gear for your main role current and also it's a good idea to keep your offspec gear current as well (you never know when you'll be switching). You know the fights as best you can. These are almost hardwired assumptions that build up into dogma over time.
They have no place in the five man random PuG.
I am not arguing that you shouldn't do your best if you're running a pick up group. I'm arguing that you have no reason to hold the other four people to a standard of play they haven't signed up for or agreed to. Clicking a role in the random window is not the same thing as filling out a guild application. A lot of these players are learning the game by playing it: it's not fair to assume they're reading theorycrafting sites and working their gear always with an eye towards maximum performance. The prot warrior in the run I just mentioned? He was a decent guy, picked up WoW last year, plays it when he's got time. He heard that Prot was OP for PvP so he went Prot, doesn't know the talents very well (he played some in BC but then they changed everything on him) and was very excited when I mentioned various sites he could go to for better information on spec and gear.
Not every 'bad' player is really a bad player. Some are just players. (Some of course are very very bad. Then again, there are very very bad players in raid guilds progressing through content. It happens.) These people didn't make any kind of commitment the way raiders are expected to just because they signed up to a random with you. Would it be nice if they knew not to stand in poison clouds or to know which attack they should be using in their rotation? Yes, it would. But going crazy and posting meters and ranting accomplishes nothing.
Also, to be honest, sometimes it's the 'elite raiders' that hold heroics back. Take, for instance, the DPS who brags about putting out 7k DPS in Halls of Lightning. First off, the mobs in HoL die so fast that the only way you're putting out 7k DPS is by attacking before the tank has even sneezed at them, which means the tank (often me) hates you with the fire and intensity of a thousand suns. Yes, I managed to pick them up with Challenging Shout and spammed every threat move I could even think of while desperately trying to generate enough rage to keep it up, thanks for the carpal tunnel syndrome. We don't need 7k DPS from one player to get through HoL. Secondly, that 7k DPS was only achieved because things died before other DPS could hit them, because again, you're attacking before the tank. You're not a good player because you put out more DPS than everyone else when you do it in this manner.
5k DPS and remembering where MD or Tricks are, using utility abilities, and waiting for the tank to pull is vastly preferred to going hog freaking wild, popping all your cooldowns as soon as they're up and otherwise being a jerk, much less then posting your hyperinflated DPS meter and waving it in the faces of the DPS you consider sub-par. This goes for tanks, too. I've been the tank putting out more DPS than the undergeared DPS in the run I'm on. You know what? Nobody cares. You're highly geared, that dude's using the quest axe from Zul'Drak. Cut him some slack, and in so doing, cut yourself some slack.
You are not there to police everyone else's gear, spec and playstyle. You are not there to have to micromanage every aspect of the game. You are there for emblems, maybe some gear, and frankly it's too much time and work to expect everyone you PuG with to play the way you do. You'll be happier if you just play, ditch when you just can't take it anymore (people would much rather wait for a replacement than listen to a tirade about how awesome you are) and wait out the time until your next. Or go do something else. People who sign up to a random didn't sign up for boot camp in your private How to WoW seminar. If you can't be helpful, at least be polite. Getting worked up over a random PuG just ends up with you worked up. You'll probably never see those people again. If you end up with a hunter who tells you he doesn't have MD because he hasn't been to a trainer since level 60, it's really not going to magically fix things to scream at him over it. If he'll listen to you and you can explain what he can do to improve, great. If not, let it go.
This is a lesson I struggle with: let it go. Your expectations of other players who you do not know, have never played with, and may never see again simply cannot be as high as when you work progression raid content or blood will squirt out of your ears and nose. It's messy. There's nothing wrong with trying to be helpful: if you see a player making a mistake you might have made yourself once upon a time you can certainly try and politely suggest ways they can improve, if they want to. But don't expect them to do so simply because you say so, and don't get invested in it: they don't know you either. They don't owe you any more than you owe them, their best effort to clear the run smoothly.
Trust me -- in the long run, your blood pressure will thank you.
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Leveling, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 13)
Vantheus Jan 18th 2010 6:11PM
You're right. too many people hurt the game value when they treat others in such an absurd manner. Luckily, this happens very rarely for me but when it does it ruins my whole day =\
murabayashi.harukaze Jan 18th 2010 6:41PM
I can't help but wonder how many folks queue as DPS over tanking or healing, even if that would be their main spec, due to the grief that other players give them in random PUGs. I have a Prot Pally that I'm trying to get my T9 set for, who I haven't played much at all since BC. I have found that more often than not, people are nasty to me in PUGs. I'm a little slower than most, but I'm trying to re-learn how to tank. It's quite different now than it was when I off-tanked in Kara, and so I try to be cautious and not get the group killed. I don't feel I'm very slow, just a little slower than people are used to. You'd think they could spare a few extra min to be a little safer? And I always do all the bosses in a dungeon without being asked, too. It's horrific enough that now I only tank for friends and guildies, which of course means that there's one less tank in the queue for random folks to be running with.
random Cow Jan 18th 2010 6:54PM
I have a well geared Bear, but queue as a Laser Turkey instead. I would rather wait 10 minutes and keep my blood pressure from going through the roof. I end up much happier when the run is over.
Kyrro Jan 18th 2010 7:01PM
I agree. I sit around, just doing easy heroics with the specific selection, just because I don't want to do ICC heroics yet (or Ahn'Kahet or Oculus for that matter), since last time I was in Pit of Saron I had trouble keeping aggro off theese 700k DPS/nanosecond DPS:s who kept smiting me for my bad aggro, and eventually kicked me when the last boss had 10% HP left.
That just made me sad. I love the Dungeon Finder, but it should have come with a DPS cap of 3000 dps..
Cor Jan 18th 2010 7:15PM
As a main spec tank I tend to tank my first PUG each day and them if I'm up for more I go DPS. I suffer a similar issue as Matt but not from the under performing players. It's the over achivers that drive me nuts. Yes, I can hold agro from someone doing 7K AE DPS (or more in raids), but in a PUG I honestly don't want to work that hard.
The difference between driving like mad through a dungeon is maybe 5 minutes? I'm no longer willing to run myself ragged trying to save people that 5 minutes.
At this point I'm done argueing with people. If someone wants to rush I will keep up, but I put them on ignore before the final boss so I don't have to PUG with them again. I fear my ignore list is going to end up being too small =)
Mike Jan 18th 2010 7:24PM
I swapped my 75 Paladin from Ret to Prot and decided to learn tanking, levelling through random dungeons. I was in VH, and I notice the DPS DK using Death & Decay on every pull. I kindly ask him not to use it. He tells me to eff off and not tell him how to play. At this point two other members of the group chime in and say that I'm the one leading the group, and I asked nicely. I tell him that my main's a DPS DK and I've learned that on the vast majority of pulls, Death & Decay causes too much threat for so little damage to be worth it. He calls me a noob for having a DK main. The guy using the signature Death Knight tanking ability when doing damage is calling me a noob. The irony was not lost. He also left his Ghoul's Gnaw on, making mob collecting (when they come out of the portal before I can get there) much more difficult.
Next day, random dungeon gives me VH again, another DPS DK using Death & Decay. I kindly ask him not to. He agreed, and run the rest of the usual AoE abilities by me to make sure they're okay. I liked that guy a lot more.
Zanathos Jan 18th 2010 8:00PM
I'm totally with you on doing what the tank says to make the run as smoothly as possible, but it's not completely unreasonable for a dps DK to be using DnD. It shouldn't be your first move, but it's a part of any AOE rotation, especially unholy. I've never had a problem on my DK diseasing up one target, spreading, and then dropping DnD. Of course, group member should go with whatever the tank wants to do, but next time consider telling the DKs to wait to drop their DnD until after they spread disease or later.
loop_not_defined Jan 18th 2010 8:12PM
All I can figure is that these "elitists" have simply never PUGed before. Nothing about PUGing has changed since Vanilla. It used to be that when people got fed up with PUGs, they would just stop PUGing and wait for guildies to come online.
Now that the Dungeon Finder is out and EVERYBODY is PUGing, these "PUG newbies" think it's better to rant, rave, and spit on everybody. Welcome to WoW.
Saithir Jan 18th 2010 8:19PM
@Kyrro
"That just made me sad. I love the Dungeon Finder, but it should have come with a DPS cap of 3000 dps.."
So, what would I have to do to get in a heroic then (on a dps arms warrior, will do 3-5k usually, so either at or well over your limit)?
Unequip my weapon? Go half naked? Only use autoattacks and nothing else? Have yet another set of gear, dps gear for a heroic to not scare tanks? I already have dps gear, and like 2 or 3 sets of prot gear in my bags, why do you want me to carry (and get, because I obviously don't keep my old offspec stuff) any more. :P
I was in heroics with lots of tanks, and while some were straight awful (a DK doing 2k TPS *at best*. I kid you not, I had a mob off him and on me if I used anything other than autoattacks), most are on the average. Sure, I can take mobs off them if I attack the one that they're not focusing on or bladestorm too early.
I never once blamed the tank for it, unless they were doing really awful threat (see DK example above), in which case I might ask them why or remind to put RF/Frost Aura on (or try to help them if it's a warrior).
Maybe it's because my mainspec is prot, so I know the "you spank it, you tank it" rule very well. It works from both sides. I took the mob, I'll kill it before it kills me. Or at least try to. ;)
DPS pulls off you when you're tanking? Do you like them, are they a random pug member and act normal, or was it your fault? Taunt it back. Were they asshats, you don't like them, they do it constantly? They'll either kill it by themselves or die and learn to not pull stuff off you. They do learn. And if not, another dps is easy to get, right?
ppaladin123 Jan 18th 2010 8:25PM
murabayashi.harukaze,
That describes me. I gave up trying to PUG heroics with my prot. warrior tank. I just can't stand the hassle, the rude/nasty players, the "gogogogogo," etc. Heroics were all about gearing up to level 200 items when they were first implemented. Now they are all about farming badges. There are a lot of impatient players in the LFG who are not going to tolerate a new tank with "only" 25k or without perfect understanding of all the boss battle gimmicks. You really have to run random heroics as a DPS to gear up your healer/tank spec. In the meantime you can run random normal mode dungeons as a healer or tank and learn the bosses in a much lower pressure environment.
murabayashi.harukaze Jan 18th 2010 8:42PM
@ppaladin123
I'm actually dual spec, my alt spec is healing. My heal set is really mish-mash right now; I just replaced an old Kara shield that I had been using in 80 heroics since I hadn't gotten anything better until recently. My first plan was to not tank in Heroics at all, but go heals instead since I'd just finished getting my T9 for my priest and had gotten the hang of healing for random folks. But, my gear on my pally was far inferior than my priest's and people were flipping me crap. So, since my tanking gear was a little better I gave up on the healing idea and decided to tank. At the time, my tank gear was mostly crafted blues, some of which weren't even item level 200, and a few lucky purples I'd gotten thus far. I start queuing for heroics as prot, give it my best, and people were even worse. I'd have squishy DPS pulling stuff for me without even giving me a heads-up. I get the "gogogo!" a lot from impatient folks. DPS hits stuff when I'm trying to LoS mobs around a corner, screwing up my pulls. And they blame it *all* on me. I admit, my tanking style is *still* the more cautious approach I'd learned in BC, which meant careful placement of Cons around CC'd mobs. It meant there were pulls you *couldn't* deal with without LoSing the casters/healers. It meant not pulling entire rooms in one shot because you'd surely all die a wretched and disastrous death. I'm learning how to tank in Wrath, but my original experience shines though very brightly still, and I understand that it's overly cautious. It's not like I'm *not* trying to adjust...
PictoKong Jan 18th 2010 9:01PM
You know what??
As soon as my druid gets to 80, i buy him the T9 shoulders (already got my emblems) and jump to the first heroic i can get as healz
You think im a noob because im in blues/epics?? then go away, YOU'LL have to wait cause you dropped group, not me;)
Last time, we got a priest on his first run of H FoS (he was not terribly geared tho). But he got our emblems, just because we said he was able to heal that....
atomicstrawberry Jan 18th 2010 9:36PM
@Zanathos: You will actually find that Blood DPS DKs get more AoE damage by spreading diseases then using blood boil (and death strike to create more death runes for blood boils).
However once you get fairly well geared even spreading diseases can be dangerous on trash if your tank isn't expecting it. The better your gear, the more those diseases will do every tick, and that is constant threat over time. Even more so if you're running with 4pc T9, because one of your diseases can crit. If it spreads to a mob that the tank hasn't picked up completely it can suddenly result in you pulling that mob off the tank, especially if you're using Blood Boil a bit in there too. Most often happens with warrior and bear tanks, I've found, since Paladins and DKs have a bit more AoE threat.
Bronwyn Jan 18th 2010 11:51PM
Sometimes it can ruin more than a day; but in the end, I put the people who act like jerks on ignore and move on with my life.
I've been running with my fiance's alt, who is a tank like his main, but far less geared. I figure if I come along as a fully badge geared dps who knows how to mitigate my own threat, I can not only get the queue times quicker but I can be there as a buffer to help when a pug gets nasty. Usually it's not a problem; he knows how to tank, and in most cases the instances we get thrown in are ones where skill > gear. But once in a while you get someone who massively outgears him and flat out refuses to curb their threat-pulling, then berates the tank for having "Terrible Gear" At this point what he has is what anyone would expect a pre-naxx raiding set to look like- A mix of epics and blues from Heroics.
This whole article is right on; you cannot hold people to the same standard you would for raids. Now, that said, I do find it helpful if someone is doing, say, 500 dps or something *really* low, to just whisper them (cross-realm whispers are working now) and let them know that they could be doing better if they spend a little time researching a rotation or a spec. And since cross-realm whispers finally work you can do this privately and not have to worry about starting a party fight. Just be tactful, you know? And if you don't get a response, don't push the issue. Just say it once, in a nice way, and leave it at that.
Var Jan 19th 2010 12:24AM
@murabayashi.harukaze
Tanking has changed a lot from what I remember of BC and even pre-BC.
There is no longer CC, there is no longer much more then the tank having to get a hit on every mob and get them all together and still do more threat then the dps can put out.
The last time I saw a sheep or a shackle or any hunter trap of any kind in an instance...was before I picked up WoW again last september.
I don't recall seeing a misdirection or anything of the sort on me in pugs but that could just be me not noticing it, also don't expect anyone to silence or counterspell casters for you to bring them into tanking range.
All these things have aided in many of the DPS wanting to fire as hard and fast and get through the instance quickly which puts more pressure on people learning to tank or heal.
I got a little off topic, but my advice is just to mark one target to dps and make sure things aren't hitting the healer.
Asuul Jan 19th 2010 2:08AM
I'm afraid I disagree with most of you. I don't have a problem with people pulling less than 3k DPS, I don't have a problem with people pulling 2K dps. What I have a problem with is the people pulling ~1500 DPS at lvl 80. I know that it's plenty of DPS to finish a heroic, but there is no reason for you to hold everyone else up. 1500 DPS isn't a problem of gear, or skill, it's a problem with common sense. My shaman did 2200 DPS -self buffed- at lvl 70. My rogue does 2.3k DPS in a 5-man at lvl 76. My brother's hunter did 1400 DPS in early 70s as BM spec. Also, it isn't hard to figure out the max-dps cookie cutter specs on your own, on every character I've leveled i've been able to generate a spec exactly the same as the max-dps spec without doing any research, or at least within 3-4 talent points on the finicky ones, like enhancement shamans.
By selecting DPS as your role in a heroic, you should be doing the maximum DPS available to you in your gear and level range. For -any- lvl 80 character this should be in the range of 2000+. By failing to do this you are doing a disservice to the unfortanate souls to be thrown in a PUG with you and are wasting the time of people who actually care about their time and the time of others. For example, if i'm grouping with my brother's tank or healer on my shaman, then i'll DPS instead of healing. I'll DPS because i know i'll squeeze out 5k-7k overall DPS, depending on buffs and get everyone through the heroic that much quicker. I could heal, as i did before my brother got tank/healing gear, and read articles on this fine website and only occasionally glance at my other monitor to see if was time to refresh earth shield or heal a few DPS while on follow with a caster, which would of course be much more leisurly for myself, but I don't.
Next, Tanks. If you have 23k UB health, without a grand amount of experience and the precisly optimum heroic tanking build, you should not be in a heroic. If my 2800 UB SP resto set cannot keep you alive whilst spamming 11K lesser healing wave crits every 1.3 seconds or so, you should not be in heroics. Again, to do so is to do a disservice to your fellow group members.
You might think i'm an elitist, a jerk, or what-have-you, but i'm not. I'm not asking you to stay out of my groups unless you a 40k HP tank or a 6k DPSer. All that I ask is that you try your best. If you are trying your best, think intelligently about gear and talents, you will do 2k DPS at lvl 80, I gaurentee it.
I won't get angry at anyone in a pug. If i'm in a good mood i'll politly advise them on how to improve, if i'm in a bad mood i'll grit my teeth and press on.
Clevo Jan 19th 2010 3:41AM
@Asuul
I think you're terribly wrong there. You're forgetting at lower levels gear scales differently than what you have at 80. I have a lvl 65 mage that had all the heirloom gear. Three levels later, they're still doing about the same amount of dps. Spec, gear, has not changed much.
My enh shaman was doing 1500 dps at lvl 70, but at level 80 with better gear, I'm only now up to 2k dps.
From playing many classes and alts 1500 dps is pretty close to the top damage you can expect when you first hit 80.
Xenn Jan 19th 2010 4:34AM
As a main spec healer I too just do a healing run for the frost random. After that I prefer to wait 20min on my dps kittie and have an easy time. I hate those over achiever dpser who don't stop getting aggro and give me a hell of a time healing 4 guys with different threat meters until one drops it on to me. When this is followed by a blame on the healer, no wonder I find easier to heal raids with my friends and herb around while I wait for my random PuG dps spot.
DarkWalker Jan 20th 2010 6:57PM
People should also remember that a random heroic is, well, random. Unless the group agrees on stopping for a few minutes on the start of the run, there is not enough time to read strats on bosses (or, worse yet, trash) before the run begins. People do need to be remembered on what to do for some encounters, and not knowing specific details on a fight should not be seen as signaling the player as a bad one. I lost count of the specific abilities bosses threw at me that I was not expecting, and I often take more damage than I should the first time a boss throws me an unusual (as in, harder to avoid than simply stepping out) "don't stand in the fire" hability.
Of course, reacting in rage when they receive respectful, well intended advice is often the mark of a bad player :)
@murabayashi.harukaze:I have a friend, who currently plays a paladin, that stopped trying to queue as tank for this same reason. I myself simply ignore such remarks, and I don't really mind if the players want to skip a boss or two; I have less than 5 seconds of wait time, which means that I'm not really wasting time by not doing a boss since I can jump right back into another heroic, and even if I'm kicked (which has not happened yet) my wait time would be at most the 15 minutes from the debuf.
Hoggersbud Jan 19th 2010 9:28AM
Funny, I think Asuul is terribly terribly right here, and that the downrating reflects just that.
You can do 2k DPS in heroics at 80 if you've been gearing and spec'ing and yes, even updating your ranks properly.
Even if by some chance you can't by the mechanics of the game reach that level, then it doesn't change the fact that some people don't gear properly. They don't spec properly. How many DK's have I seen without their runeforging on? PLENTY. How many people with all their talent points dumped into one tree have I seen? Plenty. How many people using gear that has no stats for them, bad gems that do nothing for them, and so forth have I seen? Plenty.
If these people are trying their best then...their best is pretty bad.