How not to aggro your tank with AoE
by Matthew Rossi 
Jan 22nd 2010 at 5:00PM
Part of the problem here is that certain classes/specs have no aggro dump or reduction ability and as a result their big DPS moves generate a lot of threat. Arms warriors, most DPS death knights (at least the blood and unholy specs I've used) and retribution paladins have limited aggro reduction at best (pallies at least have Hand of Salvation but that's a band aid at best) and while tanking threat (especially AoE tanking threat) requires ramp up time, it's very easy to hit the Divine Storm, Death and Decay, Pestilence, Whirlwind or Bladestorm buttons. (Enhancement shamans with Spirit Weapons seem to be okay, I rarely pull aggro even when I go nuts with Fire Nova.)
I won't pretend I'm not guilty of this myself when I go DPS. In general this seems to be an issue with the plate classes, as they're designed to be able to tank and thus have not traditionally been designed to shed aggro so much as to generate it. It also doesn't help that since they're in melee range it takes less to pull aggro. So, as a DPS'er, how can we be friendlier to the tank with our big AoE abilities? Here's a few quick and dirty suggestions.
- Wait for the tank to stop moving. This isn't always easy to do, but for big AoE pulls the tank often has to gather up mobs that are not close together and get them all close enough for his AoE threat move to work. Running up to a mob and hitting your big AoE while the tank is heading over to another mob not only wastes the ability's AoE damage, it almost certainly gets you aggro.
- Wait for the tank to use an AoE threat ability. If the druid hasn't Swiped, the DK hasn't hit Blood Boil or put down D&D, there's been no Consecraton from the paladin or the warrior hasn't used Thunder Clap, Shockwave or Cleave, it's not safe to use Bladestorm or a similar ability.
- Make sure you're in the same area as the tank's AoE threat. A good example is the trash pulls before Scourgelord Tyrannus in Pit of Saron. If the tank has four mobs in close proximity to him and one off in the distance hurling spells at him, don't Divine Storm on the one off in the distance casting spells. If there are two casters and five melee and the tank has not really bothered to try and hold the melee yet because he's Death Grip pulling the other caster to him, don't hit Bladestorm yet. Hold off on AoE until you see the tank has his AoE hitting the mobs you'll hit.
Filed under: Paladin, Shaman, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Death Knight
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 6)
Ted Jan 22nd 2010 6:08PM
as a tank: word. This and tricks of the trade = so much awesome. Best rogues I've grouped with use TotT liberally and tend to have very high damage. (I'm guessing it's because they are smart, and what not).
Byron Jan 22nd 2010 6:47PM
And dps DK's have plenty of aggro reduction w/ 3/3 Subversion in Tier1 of the Blood tree.
Blood and UH dps builds spec that talent out of necessity, and DW Frost can take it optionally, depending on necessity (though DW Frost is more single-target than AoE and can usually get away without all 3 points, if any, in it).
Falcon6 Jan 22nd 2010 6:42PM
I found a nice little buff in the threat by using Explosive Trap, as well.
I'm actually starting to use it in 25-mans, too, and I notice a nice increase in DPS...oddly enough.
Snuzzle Jan 22nd 2010 11:20PM
I should add here that while we tanks appreciate MD + volly or ToT + FoK, please don't use these moves to pull FOR us.
I can't count how many times a rogue comes up to me with twelve or fifteen mobs training behind him, while I am tanking a group of my own. And he is then shocked and confused when I, the bear, am not happy to see him. Tanks have their own pace, and if it's not fast enough for you, we won't be happy in general when you speed it up for us.
Not sayin' you do. Just a sidenote to mention for hunters and rogues everywhere.
DeathPaladin Jan 22nd 2010 5:14PM
Some more tips:
If you are a Hunter or Rogue, do not hesitate to use your threat redirection abilities on the tank. Especially Rogues. Any tank who complains about getting additional threat (plus a 15% damage boost for several seconds in the case of Rogues) is an idiot. They're not doing it because they think you're a bad tank. They're doing it so they can dps earlier without fear of pulling.
On my DK, I usually run several steps behind the tank, sometimes closer to the ranged dps. Doing this means that by the time I'm in position to start dpsing, the tank used their AoE threat ability.
Chakkaa Jan 22nd 2010 6:58PM
As a Tank I would like to add...
Hey DKs I know you can pull in mobs assistance is always enjoyed on those wide ranging spell types, if I know your pulling it in I WILL Taunt it off of you. Lets me spend a cooldown on an extra AOE move usually.
Byron Jan 22nd 2010 7:08PM
I'm MS tank on my dk, but love queuing as dps for that reason - I know what the tank is trying to do and can help him round up mobs w/ DG, Strang, and Mind Freeze. It's a lot of fun to assist like that.
Maklaca Jan 22nd 2010 7:26PM
Note to non hunters: When the hunter starts dpsing with misdirect, it is not the signal for everyone else to start dpsing and pulling aggro.
Zanathos Jan 22nd 2010 5:14PM
Ret paladins can (and should) have 30% threat reduction, and it's easy for any type of dps DK to pick up threat reduction from the first tier of blood. Arms warriors (unlike fury) have no sort of threat reduction at all, which is why bladestorm is especially associated with aggro rips. Even with giving tanks a few seconds to aoe and whatnot will often get at least one mob on me if I bladestorm on my warrior. It's not unusual to for me to see the rest of the party nearly finished off packs via aoe and i'll still rip aggro with a bladestorm. I don't have nearly the same problem DPSing on a better geared paladin.
dinnercoat Jan 22nd 2010 5:42PM
Is that with SoComm. Divine Storm and 2pc T10? That combo + lots of trash leads to crazy amounts of threat.
Neirin Jan 22nd 2010 6:19PM
I think his point wasn't so much that they don't generate threat, it's that the article is blatantly wrong about the presence of aggro reduction talents. Unless Rossi's suggesting that 25-30% aggro reduction isn't enough for dks and ret paladins, but 10% is enough for Fury warriors.
Valt Jan 22nd 2010 8:17PM
Battle stance reduces threat by 20%
But arms warriors have sick aggro still. I know from experience.
Shrike Jan 22nd 2010 5:14PM
And sadly, these tips sometimes aren't enough. My arms warrior is not well-geared yet (all iLevel 200 blues and purples, with perhaps four 219 and 232 pieces, one of which is the Edge of Ruin), but Bladestorm still pulled three of four mobs off a well-geared prot paladin's Consecrate even though I waited to use it until after seeing the *second* Consecrate cast pop.
At this point, I just don't use Bladestorm unless the mobs who are left will be dead by the end of it.
Crimpshrine Jan 22nd 2010 5:49PM
This may be just my opinion / interpretation, but the way I read the Bladestorm tooltip that's exactly the point. It isn't supposed to be an incredible damage producing ability with no repercussion or risk. The line that says that the ability, once activated, can only be stopped early by killing the warrior sort of says it all. So it makes sense that it would generate so much threat that we can only (safely) use it in situations where it will result in the death of the enemy.
PodPeople Jan 22nd 2010 6:00PM
there's another solution; Don't use Bladestorm. even pally tanks need a little time to get aoe aggro, especially if there are more than 3 mobs in the pull. both hammer and Capt Amer shield only hit 3 mobs, it there's a pull with 4 or more, you have to wait a little. waiting for consecration is not a good idea. consecration does crap for aggro, only ticks for 200-400dmg, it's very passive aggro, and is basically just enough to keep the mobs off the healer. some arms warrior pirouetting with a monstrous 2H doing 2-3k to mobs is going to easily pull mobs off that were only held by consecration. even if the pally uses HoSalv on you, you will still get aggro. i know your super, uber dps will be hurt by you not using BS, but i for one have given up on saving stupid dps from not knowing how to control their aggro. maybe your repair bills will help you learn not to hit the BS button for at LEAST 5 sec AFTER you see consecrate (thunderclap, D&D, or whatever) go down. personally i have use consecrate at the end of my "rotation" since wrath's launch, maybe now it's a good thing, as i hadn't thought that it's the thing that dps might be looking for it as a sign they should unload their nukes. only 1 exception to this in an all undead mob pull, if you see a pally shield discus, hammer *pow*, consecrate, and holy wrath them, Bladestorm away my friends, bladestorm away.
Neirin Jan 22nd 2010 6:24PM
Since he said he waited for the 2nd Conc, it would be reasonable to assume the tank has gotten into their rotation. The reason he's pulling is that he's treating the trash like an AoE pull and the tank is treating it as a series of burn targets. The only way to stop this from happening is communication.
jslim419 Jan 23rd 2010 9:53AM
"there's another solution; Don't use Bladestorm."
i've pulled aggro off of tank's using just a mortal strike, followed by an overpower, and sudden death execute after letting them go for at least 5-7 seconds. and that was on the main target mob.
the simple fact is that a lot of tank's just really suck, and no amount of slowing your dps will stop you from pulling aggro from them as an arms warrior. i'll stick to using bladestorm, and finishing off mobs i pull aggro on by myself instead of getting laughed at by the FoK'ing rogue that starts a vote to kick me because of my low no bladestorm using dps.
although i'm not a total dick. i won't blow bladestorm the instant a trash pack gets to the tank, and i let the tank know not to worry if i pull one or two mobs off of him every few pulls. i'm a big boy, i can handle one or two lvl 80 elites as long as i'm getting a spot heal here and there. but don't expect me to never use an ability that is 25% of my total dps because some people don't know how to play.
Fraeda Jan 24th 2010 9:21AM
@jslim419
You see the other 3 or 4 mobs that came with the one you decided to tank on your own, Mr. Studly Warrior man? Just because the tank is trying to lock down the others besides the one you've blessed with your attention, doesn't mean the tank sucks... A little situational awareness goes a long way...
Also, don't use your Charge just after your tanks pull! I've been more than happy to let some M&S warrior tank their own mob because they decided they're in a rush to top their Epeen damage meters...
Lethe Jan 22nd 2010 5:17PM
I might point out that Paladins have 30% threat reduction from Fanaticism, Warriors have reduced threat while in Battle and Fury Stance, and I believe the same holds true for Death Knights in Blood or Unholy Presence. Of course, even with this, many times it's just not enough.
I play a Paladin, and when I'm running as Ret I'm almost always the highest threat below the tank. Between Seal of Command, Divine Storm and Consecrate, we have some fairly strong AoE threat in trash clearing situations.
Generally a little common sense works best to avoid pulling from most tanks, as has been mentioned already. If a tank is really bad at generating threat, I'll stand around for a few seconds and give them time to build some before I go ripping into mobs; usually 3-5 seconds is fine. Trash will die quick enough anyways that the few seconds isn't such a huge loss to warrant giving the tank and healer a hard time
Lethe Jan 22nd 2010 5:32PM
edit: Looks like I was mistaken, Death Knight threat reduction is talented as well.
On the other side of this, though, is tank tunnel vision. When they focus on just one mob, it can mean they aren't building enough on the secondary ones and that leads to AoE pulling. When I'm tanking, I generally tab around after building threat on the priority kill target. I've had plenty of training on my warrior back in vanilla with tab sundering and locking down packs.
There are certainly steps you can take to reduce the risk, but preventative measures can only go so far. Both the dps and the tank need to be doing their part and playing intelligently.