How not to aggro your tank with AoE
by Matthew Rossi 
Jan 22nd 2010 at 5:00PM
Part of the problem here is that certain classes/specs have no aggro dump or reduction ability and as a result their big DPS moves generate a lot of threat. Arms warriors, most DPS death knights (at least the blood and unholy specs I've used) and retribution paladins have limited aggro reduction at best (pallies at least have Hand of Salvation but that's a band aid at best) and while tanking threat (especially AoE tanking threat) requires ramp up time, it's very easy to hit the Divine Storm, Death and Decay, Pestilence, Whirlwind or Bladestorm buttons. (Enhancement shamans with Spirit Weapons seem to be okay, I rarely pull aggro even when I go nuts with Fire Nova.)
I won't pretend I'm not guilty of this myself when I go DPS. In general this seems to be an issue with the plate classes, as they're designed to be able to tank and thus have not traditionally been designed to shed aggro so much as to generate it. It also doesn't help that since they're in melee range it takes less to pull aggro. So, as a DPS'er, how can we be friendlier to the tank with our big AoE abilities? Here's a few quick and dirty suggestions.
- Wait for the tank to stop moving. This isn't always easy to do, but for big AoE pulls the tank often has to gather up mobs that are not close together and get them all close enough for his AoE threat move to work. Running up to a mob and hitting your big AoE while the tank is heading over to another mob not only wastes the ability's AoE damage, it almost certainly gets you aggro.
- Wait for the tank to use an AoE threat ability. If the druid hasn't Swiped, the DK hasn't hit Blood Boil or put down D&D, there's been no Consecraton from the paladin or the warrior hasn't used Thunder Clap, Shockwave or Cleave, it's not safe to use Bladestorm or a similar ability.
- Make sure you're in the same area as the tank's AoE threat. A good example is the trash pulls before Scourgelord Tyrannus in Pit of Saron. If the tank has four mobs in close proximity to him and one off in the distance hurling spells at him, don't Divine Storm on the one off in the distance casting spells. If there are two casters and five melee and the tank has not really bothered to try and hold the melee yet because he's Death Grip pulling the other caster to him, don't hit Bladestorm yet. Hold off on AoE until you see the tank has his AoE hitting the mobs you'll hit.
Filed under: Paladin, Shaman, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Death Knight
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Ronin Jan 22nd 2010 6:57PM
"Warriors have reduced threat while in Battle and Fury Stance" What? No, they only have less threat compared to a Warrior in Defensive stance. Defensive stance generates _more_ threat; that doesn't mean the other stances have a threat reduction.
loop_not_defined Jan 22nd 2010 10:33PM
@Ronin
Battle Stance does, in fact, reduce threat by 20%. This is very easy to verify, and in fact, I did so just a minute ago.
Damage = Threat value, always. Hitting for 2000 damage gains you 2000 threat. I logged in a minute ago and did 5380 damage to a level 78 mob. My threat was 4304. 4304/5380 = 0.8, on the dot. I gained 80% threat for the damage I did, in Battle Stance, as an Arms Warrior.
It's worth mentioning that other classes have threat reduction baked into their entirety. If I remember correctly, Rogues *ALWAYS* have a certain amount of threat reduction, but that just complicates matters. I get 20% threat reduction, but the rogues get threat reduction, Feint, Vanish, and TotT? Not fair! :)
Broken_toes Jan 22nd 2010 5:19PM
I'm sorry but I tank fairly often- I also use a icc geared rogue (feels good to say that:D )- My unholy DK is also 80, and not crap geared.
While sure my rogue has Tricks, vanish etc for when I'm not paying as much attention as I should be, my DK doesn't. He's got that unholy talent that reduces threat but thats it.
I use aoe often, my rogue is combat.
And you know what? I found out how not to over aggro, its simple really- quit playin like a dick, quit trying to top the DPS meters.
Thats it, that simple! You have loads of lovely gear. OK. You can do 6-8k DPS, OK.
But honestly do you need to do it in a 5- man pug?
All you need to do if you really, really want to unleash a heap of AoE is wait till your tank engages a group of mobs, then wait till you see them consecrate or what ever it is that you happen to have tanking for you.
Count to 3 if the tank seems under geared.
Its a sad state of affairs when this crap needs to be explained, I think its sadder that it'll still keep happening.
Tebla Jan 22nd 2010 5:31PM
"quit playin like a dick, quit trying to top the DPS meters."
This. Over and over again.
dinnercoat Jan 22nd 2010 5:47PM
I approve of this message.
Though ... is it considered dickish to not purposefully pull aggro on something but then quickly dispatch it?
Sqtsquish Jan 22nd 2010 5:47PM
Honestly I don't care if you do 5 billion dps but you had better have either 1. a way of dumping aggro before it would have ripped off me (so even if it fails, you can still turn around and stop dps) or 2 you are willing to tank or otherwise handle ALL the mobs you pull off me and keep them from eating you and the healer (ie a mage that van pull aggro on 4 mobs and frost nova, blink away and then pop invisibility (also assuming that mage is not dumb enough to nova close to the healer: dead healer= bad)), I am more then willing to pick up 3-5 melee mobs that you have conveniently sitting on their rumps WHILE in my line of sight. Now on the other hand aggro+cyclone or blastwave is rude and obnoxious- unless you are lumping all the mobs in the corner of a room for me to be able to hold them there, DON"T DO IT.
I really do appreciate high damage people, but what earns you my respect is the ability to be aware of the situation and not screw anyone else over.
TheSipe Jan 22nd 2010 5:56PM
"quit playin like a dick, quit trying to top the DPS meters."
You're 90% right here. The other 10% is that we're all gearing up so fast that the DPS with great gear, got all of it in heroics and doesn't have the discipline to control the DPS at their fingertips. Like a monkey with a fire arm.
That being said, my prot pally agrees. Most DPS out there that pulls threat are total asshats.
IcyBrian Jan 22nd 2010 6:30PM
Completely agree. I'm sick of being bitched at by people who are outdpsing me, but continue to pull aggro. I may not be doing insane damage, but what I'm doing is more than enough for a 5 man pug. Also, I do these weird considerate things like pulling loose mobs off the healer & not pulling aggro off the tank. Crazy, I know.
eugee Jan 22nd 2010 5:19PM
As a Protection paladin here's what to wait for:
You need to see a Consecration *and* hear a "BRAAANG!" before AE. That sound means his Hammer of Righteousness has gone off, so no only does he have some AE aggro going, but they are probably positioned how he wants them.
Myself, as I approach a pack I throw out Avenging Shield, pop Holy Shield as I run in, then hit them with my Hammer of Righteousness (targetting the one AS didn't hit) and finally drop my Consecration. Aggro is now firmly established and everyone can pile in. It's probably not necessary to wait that long, but you have to let us get a little aggro built.
Fraeda Jan 24th 2010 9:24AM
Also be aware that not all tanks are hit-capped... Some of us newer tanks are still gearing up. While we can hold onto the mobs, if HoR misses one or more (same for AS), we may not have that initial lock on them until after a couple of extra sections...
Quidamtyra Jan 22nd 2010 5:20PM
My main is a rogue, and as such I use Tricks every chance I get, especially for big AoE pulls.
My alt, however, is a Frost DK tank, and I can't tell you how freaking annoying it is to drop a DnD and have the arms warrior/ret paladin/rogue/etc immediately hit bladestorm/divine storm/fan of knives/etc and blame me for not holding aggro.
I was in a PoS PUG with an arms warrior who would charge in BEFORE me, bladestorm and die and got pissed off at me that I didn't peel all the mobs off him. He then said "first the pally tank can't hold aggro now this dk tank can't hold it."
Then people get mad at me because I'm not pulling fast enough, little do they apparently know that DnD has a fucking cooldown.
/end rant
Mau Jan 22nd 2010 5:22PM
On my balance druid, I just wait until I've manually casted my rotation (Faerie fire, Moonfire and Insect swarm), by then most tanks have all the mobs in place so I can cast Starfall/Hurricane. Really its not that hard to be patient for 2 seconds.
ML Jan 22nd 2010 5:41PM
When I am tanking on my druid, which has totc/icc 10 gear, even after 2 or 3 swipes a Bladestorm will pull aggro. Paladins and Death Knights don't give me so much trouble, so I presume it's got something to do with Bladestorm.
(cutaia) Jan 22nd 2010 5:25PM
I saw a spirited discussion in Icecrown general chat yesterday about how pulling aggro as a DPS is always the fault of the tank (hey, I said the discussion was spirited, not intelligent). Not one voice spoke up to mention some of the reasons this is not always true. Either all the tanks in the area were too busy to argue or they were all pansies. I, uh...I was busy.
Unfortunately, this seems to be a common train of thought amongst our Recount-obsessed generation of DPSers.
As far as I’m concerned, though, hitting the top of the meters means nothing if you have to avoid doing things like, oh I don’t know, paying attention in order to do it. Do your job, attack the correct mobs, and manage your aggro and only then will I pat you on the back for winning the damage race.
People who want to go balls out on every single enemy without fear that their actions will have consequences should drop the MMOs and go play a single-player game.
Having said that, of course there can be failings in anyone’s gameplay. Tanks sure as hell can be at fault when they lose aggro. I know I’ve done it a few times in my day. But as players, we need to have a greater understanding of the game’s mechanics than simply, “DPS should never end up with aggro, period.”
In doing more pugs through the new dungeon finder, I’ve been surprised by the relative smoothness of most of the runs. There are, however, some unsettling trends I’ve noticed.
1) DPS running ahead of the tank and/or tagging mobs.
2) DPS failing to attack the tank’s target even when they are marked or a kill order has been established.
3) DPS refusing to let the tank build any aggro for fear of losing a little DPS, whether this means using some kind of 2-second rule or even just letting LOSed casters get within AOE range of the tank.
4) With some exceptions, deathgripping anything.
Now, these days enough people are well-geared enough to where most of these things will not equal a wipe in your average heroic pug. Does that mean it’s acceptable to ignore the rules of being a good DPS, though?
I think not. Ignoring the most basic gameplay mechanics at any given time is sloppy play, regardless of the outcome. Just because you’re used to your usual tank being able to handle it, does not always mean it’s the fault of another tank if they cannot. When one ignores their role and blames another for it, they are showing themselves to be an inadequate player, regardless of what that number at the corner of their screen says.
Possum Jan 22nd 2010 5:33PM
It's because we all outgear the instances that people are getting sloppy, it makes me think that if blizzard wants people to keep doing heroics when they're raid geared that they're going to have to scale them up somehow.
Tom Jan 22nd 2010 5:36PM
Very much this!
Overgearing content is no excuse to be sloppy, and it's certainly no excuse to be a dick.
Tom Jan 22nd 2010 5:37PM
My comment was a reply to (cutaia) :P
DeathPaladin Jan 22nd 2010 6:02PM
"Unfortunately, this seems to be a common train of thought amongst our Recount-obsessed generation of DPSers."
Life Stages of a DPS
1. Larval Stage - Does not have Recount installed because they don't know what it is.
2. Pupal Stage - Discovers Recount. Installs it. Posts a DPS Recount after every boss (every trash fight for some species)
3. Imago (Adult) Stage - Does not have Recount installed because they know their DPS is enough to kill the boss.
vocenoctum Jan 22nd 2010 8:11PM
You missed the stage of "know what recount is, can't figure out how to install it, so asks for recount to be posted after each boss".
Broken_toes Jan 22nd 2010 8:25PM
Na man I've seen all that crap leading to wipes.
Mean 5 people in 251 gear wiping in UK HC is just embarrising.
I've had plenty o times DPS'n when its a case of "ooooo poop I hit that guy really hard" I didn't mean to, but the crit was too much so I hit vanish. But tanking I've had folk in greens actually taunting... mean come on...
This over aggro nonsense, and DPS behaving like healers has really only come about with the PuG finder. I used to enjoy tanking when it was my own realm, now I just can't bare it. When I do do it I run a few, instant groups means I can. I guess its the amount of folk I go through in one session, but they all seem to be dickheads.
Sure I've had good groups, just the bad seems to out weigh the good. The DPS are always doing something stupid, you tell them nicely to stop and get a bunch of "**** noob*** **** noob" back, the healers half asleep because he reckons everything is a faceroll unless your raiding...
Christ, bugger rollin a tank.