*pushing*

My alt is a prot pally, and I can't tell you how much I -HATE- dps [sadly mostly mages and moonkin, the later of which really peeves me since my main is moonkin] that doesn't even let me concecrate.

I use judgement of wis first on my main target, mostly because there is so much damage mitigation that I don't get mana through healing. Then I hammer of the righteous for multi mob aggro, then concecrate. Beginning of a standard 96969 rotation. This takes all of 3 global cooldowns and then I generally keep mobs.

But for Elune's sake don't aoe when I run in before even getting close enough to cast judgement.

Aye ... the constant need to top the list can often lead to the tank having very little chance to establish threat... especially druid tanks.

On an aside... I suffer from muscle spasms in my legs. Really bad ones ... and often times when they hit hard, the only thing I can do to try and avoid being thrown so hard my chair will flip over backwards is to press down with my hands. This means I'm clicking my mouse, sometimes pressing keys on the keyboard ... whatever I can do to stabilize myself for that split second that my legs decide to try to launch me.

Now ... how that could lead to pasting recount to the party ... it couldn't. But ... since the blog post talked about it, I did want to point out that it does happen, and has in fact contributed to me mysteriously stopping what I'm doing while tanking an instance for a few seconds while I get my legs back under control ... and then I'll say "Sorry, leg spasms" to the group and usually people go "lol" or something, not realizing I'm being serious.

This made me cringe. Typical viewpoint from someone who struggles to keep up with the competition.


Everytime you referece, the dps being not important, as long as things are going down in a timely manner.... I literally wince. Things are going down in a timely manner, because your being carried, by people who actually pay attention, and strive to perfect their rotations, and dps.

@ Navaro
So anyone who isn't as obsessive or perfectionist about the game as you is auto-fail? Don't forget, this article is talking about Recount in the context of random PuGs, although some of the bad behaviour described here would be completely unacceptable in a raid.

On a slightly different note, I would like to nominate Mr Belt to write an opinion piece on the merits of Gear Score, another addon which is abused for all the wrong reasons. I've been waiting diligently for WoW.com to write about this addon, and now I know which columnist should write it!

@ Navaro

Fan of knives spam is not a rotation. Seed of corruption spam is not a rotation. Volley spam is not a rotation. Trying to justify these things as only being done "by people who actually pay attention, and strive to perfect their rotations, and dps" is crap.

More often then not (from my experience) the people who mindlessly spam their heavy hitting aoe on trash are the ones pulling threat from the tank, rarely help a group with any utility, and end up being a nightmare for the healer. Yet they top the random aoe button mashing dps on trash and they will let everyone know it. However they don't need to tell the tank as he spends all his time running after mobs they've aggro'd or the healer who is wasting mana trying to keep him alive for some reason.

The best part is for a good majority of these people who post trash damage meters tend to suck on anything that lives for longer than 30 seconds. On boss fights they tend to due fairly poor damage as then they would have to press more than 1 button. It always makes me laugh when I end up grouped for 25 VoA with some of these people and looking at recount for the bosses there, even though recount shouldn't be needed for VoA either.

@ Cc
One of the toons I have is a healer. In a pug, I always wind up with that one dps who won't let the tank get aggro. It happens sometimes, I know, and I will try to keep the dps alive thru the first time. If they keep casting or attacking, or doing something that otherwise won't let the tank get the mob, they die. If they keep pulling off the tank, they keep dying. If it is an accident, I will do my best for them. If they are idiots, then they are dead idiots.

The worst pug I was in, the warlock pulled, the hunter misdirected on to the healer (me), the mage hit iceblock and just sat there, and the tank ran in the opposite direction. Then they started cursing at me for not keeping them all alive. And of course, the lock posted the damage meter cause he was on top - for the 4 seconds or so that we were all alive anyway. I didn't say a word. Just dropped group.

I can't help but wonder if the tanks that cry, "OMG I'm almost out-DPSing the DPS!" are the same tanks that focus on damage AND NOT FREAKIN' THREAT. The ONLY time I struggle to stay above a tank is when he spends half the instance chasing after loose mobs he keeps losing aggro on. Strangely, his DPS is close to mine.

Mind you, I'm not the one pulling aggro. I'm a good DPS - I use Omen. But the fact that I'm dangerously close to pulling aggro just with Sweeping Strikes tells me that Bladestorm probably isn't going to get used, ever.

One time we actually had a completely overgeared tank leave the dungeon over this. I put on my so-so tanking gear, we brought in another DPS, and continued the dungeon without a hitch. I was miles and miles ahead of everybody else...on *threat*, the statistic that matters. It was wonderful seeing the Mage in the group finally being able to use Blizzard.

@Navaro
I've healed your sort once. It was only ZF, but it was a nightmare. The guy was running allover the place, blowing all his AoE (seriously, trying to grab agro as a mage with your AE is NOT a good idea). He also didn't realized that since I have to give him massive healing at any given time, I'm getting an infinite amount of aggro on multiple mobs at the same time.
After the first couple of tries, I stopped healing the guy, let him die, and we downed the boss with absolutely no problem. I would hate to see him in a guild run.

@Navaro

Not sure what class you're playing, but mind I tell you, many of the great DPS classes require quite some time to build up their output. DoT classes like my spriest or affliction warlocks (*hastily hits Dispersion in an anticipation of an incoming plethora of arcane barrages for saying that word in mage column*) hardly have time to put all their dots on a single mob before entire pack dies to AOE. Classes with more complex rotations like assassination-specced folk from Chase Christian's column or feral kittehs need a much longer time to fully unfold their DPS, which means they will not top the meters like they should unless it's a bossfight and the target actually survives long enough for them to go all out. Should I mention the existence of trinkets that also need time to build up stacks?

Sure, a substantially worse geared enh shammy or ret pally probably can outDPS me on those pesky whelps in the beginning of the Oculus. But let them try to link a meter and start bragging about it. =)

On the other hand, considering that "people who actually pay attention, and strive to perfect their rotations" just spam aoe in a most irresponsible manner, they bring more chaos and sense of fail to the group than people that act responsibly. I'm sure if Mr. Belt ended up in a group with my not-so-well-geared warrior tank, he'd be nice enough to let me pick the mobs up, because there mathematically is no way on earth I can pick the mobs up if an ICC25-geared mage (or any other AOE-friendly class) starts AOE-ing before I even reached the mobs (and no, I don't consider Challenging Shout an option, it's honestly a tool for a "nasty stuff hit the fan" situations, not a tool for handling reckless uncooperative 12-yr old kids).

Speaking of which: same people you mention, people that think they carry everyone that fall behind them on meters during trash pulls, actually end up costing everyone repair bills more often than not. An example would be a situation when in H HoR you have one such guy that has a much better gear than the rest of the group, including tank and healer, proportional to his recklessness and witlessness, probably.

Normally you should have 5 mobs at pull, 4 mobs 10 sec later, 3 mobs 20 secs later etc etc, a logical pace that dynamically alleviates stress from healer by actually taking out dangerous mobs and preventing them from doing more damage and using more nasty abilities. But the outgeared guy is too good to listen to reason. His favorite Gearscore addon just told him that everyone else in his group sucks (don't get me wrong, GS is a great addon for a somewhat objective evaluation of gear, I trust it to see if my toon is ready for one specific encounter or another, but same people that misuse meters sadly tend to misuse GS too). So that guy just starts spamming his AOE, anticipating some juicy numbers on his meter to link after the pull, and things end up in one of the following ways:

a) If both tank and healer are well geared, then you'll just have a very frustrated healer, in which case that guy better pray the healer isn't a RL warlock (*tries to hit Dispersion again, but finds it on cooldown. Oh sh&#...*), because hey, WTF, healer doesn't have to stress himself more just because you're being a jerkwad.

b) If healer can't keep it up, you'll have 5 mobs at the pull, same 5 10 secs later, same 5 20 secs later, same 5 30 secs later and a dead tank 40 secs later. GG

c) If the tank can't generate enough aggro to hold the mobs under that monstrous AOE, then the former soldiers of Lordaeron will do everyone a favor and take a second of their time to collectively one-shot the jerkwad. Sadly, due to instance mechanics that'll mean a wipe on Falric. GG

Sure, there are situations when AOE is logical and necessary, like the PoS midtunnel fight, where I just love to see a 17k DPS Mind Sear (who wouldn't?), but the jerkwads strive for that high number on the meter in too many inappropriate situations (When was the last time I saw a DK Death Grip a shackled rifleman, ignoring the loose mage next to the rifleman? Today? Yeah, I guess), ending up stressing and/or wiping the group, which nobody appreciates.

P.S. If you're really that good and you're a perfectionist, I don't see why you would have a problem with what you call "carrying" people. Many is the time when I find myself in a group with one or sometimes even two fresh 80-ies. I find it perfectly ok, because I know I can make up for their lack of DPS and get the instance done nice and clean. And I also don't forget to decurse, shackle, mass dispel and do everything else I can, rather than just pushing numbers. So instead of perfecting your "rotations", you should try perfecting the way you do your job, which includes everything your class can do. I can't possibly express enough of my admiration to that enh shammy the other day, that sacrificed his precious SoE totem to put down Tremor on King Dred. A trifle, but what a pleasant one.

Hear Hear!!! Wish we could post this entire article in trade chat! Thanks again :)

As ive been lvling as a tank in dungeons in alts this is also my biggest pain, you have practically looked at a mob and other classes are going at it full pelt, overdpsing when i look to build the threat up on another mob that another random dps has gone balls to the walls on, and dying because one of them pulls agro.

The worst part is when they look round at the tank and go "TANK GET MORE AGRO" or to the healer and say "HEEEEEEEALME!111!1!FFS"
I know this problem has been around forever but atleast back in tbc the penalty for overagroing off a tank was death.....most of the time :(
idiots learned fast or quit groups quickly, unfortunately thanks to the new grouping system waiting 15 mins to kick a person or being unable to kick them as 3 ppl have joined together is VERY annoying.

@Navaro
There is not a word in my exceptionally large vocabulary that adequetly describes how unintelligent appear because of your comment. You're suggesting that CHRISTIAN BELT, the most elite of all mages, actually struggles to put out competitive DPS? True story: when Archmage Pants is in your group, Recount simply ceases to function, as your computer does not have the resources to track his DPS. And, of course, things only go down in a timely fashion because people get carried. Things never went down in a timely fashion before the 6k+ DPS era, mirite? Funny, I was quite pleased with the rate at which things died in heroics the moment my mage, my first 80, dinged and entered heroics. I was along with the rest of the dps, oddly enough, putting out the now abominable (as in snowman, unsure about spelling) 1800 DPS. It's crazy how you might be randomly inserted in heroics nowadays with similar (new 80s) people. It's crazy how every person may not have as much video game experience as I (you?) have, leading to natural understanding and optimization of mechanics and high DPS immediatly after dinging 80. It's crazy how some people may be playing in the spec that seems to be the most fun, rather than the most DPS.

Being completly honest, I do cringe when I see less than 1.8k on the meters (because it IS possible to do that much at lvl 80, if you know what you're doing), but I don't care. My 8k DPS shaman does enough for three entry level 80s and then some, so why should I care what they do? At the worst, I'll point it out to my brother IRL, or my mates in G-chat but say nothing to the player, or link meters. At best, I'll inspect their talents, rotation, and gear in order to politely advise them on how to do better via whispers.
@loop_not_defined
Probably not the same tanks, considering that tanks get bonus threat, and DPS usually gets threat reductions. If a tank is out-DPSing people, then they have aggro (not considering cases of mental retardation among DPS, involving searing pain spam, tossing threat to other DPSers via MD or TotT,which is acceptable only if the recipient is a warlock, ect.)
@ The Great Archmage
In the future, I would humbly advise you to:
A) Shatter the warlock's DPS and then taunt HIM about it.
B) Kick him right before the final boss, denying him his frosties.
C) Roll a mage of the opposite faction on his server, use your powers to instantly ding 80 with a full PVP set and camp him for all of eternity.
Although I can certainly understand your unwillingness to stay in a group with such ignorant filth.

As a disc priest I agreed with everything in this article. Until I picked up a shadow offspec and some random pally tank pulled 4 groups worth of trash that I VT'd/mind-seared down. Looking at my 11k dps afterwards, I realised how wonderful, how right, how necessary recounts were.

@ccbutch: Thank you Thank you Thank you!!! I play a healer and a lock. I hit Northrend with my lock first, and I was seriously worried about my dps. It was just under a grand, and after gearing up through random dungeon runs it's maybe 1.2K now at level 76. Now I'm playing my healer more (the random dungeon finder killed my desire to dps when wintergrasp is up). I have learned very quickly what I need to do to get my dps up with my lock in randoms. The seed of corruption spam you mention is the winner, and nothing . . . I mean NOTHING makes me more miserable as a healer than a lock who does this. I ran with one the other day, 2 randoms in a row, and she was nice, and I'm geared enough that keeping her alive was easy enough, but I threw as much healing at her as I did at the tank, and I'm disc, so I have a lot of twitchy, things going wrong healing. A more paced healer like a tree druid really doesn't have much for a 1 2 3 knockout combination on a clothie. They can't throw power word shield, pain suppression, prayer of mending then move to the stuff that has a cast time. So please DPSers, please consider what you're doing and how it effects the whole run?

ccbutch said: "Fan of knives spam is not a rotation. Seed of corruption spam is not a rotation. Volley spam is not a rotation. Trying to justify these things as only being done "by people who actually pay attention, and strive to perfect their rotations, and dps" is crap.

More often then not (from my experience) the people who mindlessly spam their heavy hitting aoe on trash are the ones pulling threat from the tank, rarely help a group with any utility, and end up being a nightmare for the healer. Yet they top the random aoe button mashing dps on trash and they will let everyone know it."

When I'm tanking on my druid and I run into a person doing this - here's what I do - and it works. When they pull - just stand there - and after the cluster of mobs one shots them pick them up and tank like normal.

After about 2-3 pulls they get the message.

The only person I don't do this to is a close friend and only because its a game who can pull faster (and we're on vent messing around - and he's also usually healing me).

I had a aggravating tank in a Violet Hold random the other day. He out DPS everyone else and he sure let you know about it after every pull. To make matters worse, he berated the two lowest dps scorers.

You know what, I didn't care. We were downing the MOBS. We were not wiping. As a group we had more then sufficient DPS to get the job done. Dud, this is just VH. Get over it! Let's just get the badges we're after and call it a good run.