Officers' Quarters: The fourth tank's lament

It's no secret that tanks are generally in short supply. Blizzard has admitted as much and even designed the Death Knight class specifically to entice more people to taking up the tanking role. They've gone away from fights like the notorious, original implementation of the Four Horsemen encounter that required 8 fully geared tanks and given us more fights like Rotface that only require 2. But for a 25-player raid, you generally need 3.
So what about those fourth tanks? They find themselves riding the pine:
Dear Scott,
I have been playing WoW for just under four months and have worked my butt off to make my Warrior the best tank that I possibly can. I get numerous compliments about my ability and pride myself on being liked by all. I have joined one of the top raiding guilds on my server, but I am finding problems getting selected for raids.
Currently we raid 3 nights a week, and on average, we have 35-40 people showing up EVERY raid night. Obviously, you cannot take 40 people into ICC25 and therein lies the problem. The current state of raids encourages guilds to take 3 tanks at most, and at times, the third tank is running in an offspec, most likely dps. I am one of five tanks in the guild, and the newest of the bunch. All gear is about equal. The other four get selected for raids on a nightly basis based on seniority. I have remained diligent and have shown up for raids every night without fail, only to be told there is no need for me tonight.
I started playing WoWarcraft solely for the end-game raiding scene, and not being able to experience it is extremely frustrating. I've talked to the leadership of the guild and the simple answer I get is "Be patient". It is now going on the 2nd month of sitting out and my patience is running low. At what point should I throw in the towel and look elsewhere for a home? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--Frustrated
I empathize with your situation, Frustrated. It's never fun to sit out week after week. The comfort that I can offer you, as someone who's been playing this game for five years now, is that eventually the interest in ICC will die down and you won't have anything close to 40 people showing up for raids. I guarantee it. So you will get your chance if you can be patient.
You don't have to be. I'm sure there are guilds out there looking for a solid tank if you want to explore your options. But if you like your guild and you want to stay, you will eventually get your chances.
The problem may simply be that your officers don't think you have enough raid experience. If you've only been playing for four months, there are many areas where you may not be as skilled as other tanks.
The fact is that tanks often make or break a raid, so raid leaders have to choose very carefully. Tanking can be very difficult in endgame raids, and the success of the run often depends on their ability to think on their feet and react instinctively.
Look at the early ICC encounters. In many of these fights, the tanks have a tough job and experience is a key factor in their performance:
- Marrowgar: Tanks have to stay together, pick him up quickly after a Bone Storm, and face him in the right direction so people don't take a Saber Lash to the face.
- Lady Deathwhisper: Tanks have to be on the ball here, picking up all the adds as they come out, knowing which adds to tank and which have to be kited, and managing tank swaps in Phase 2.
- Deathbringer Saurfang: Tanks have very little to do here. Even so, they could easily cause a wipe by accidentally aggo'ing the blood beasts or failing to taunt when Rune of Blood is cast.
- Rotface: The slime-kiting tank has a really tough job here.
- Professor Putricide: Positioning of the boss is critical, and a tank is also usually the one driving the "abomination" vehicle. The order of your tank swaps in Phase 3 can decide whether you're assigning loot or watching your limited-attempt counter tick down.
Frustrated, it could be that your officers think you lack the raiding experience to cope with these situations. Ask them if they feel you can improve your play in any way and see what they say. Even if they don't have a specific suggestion, they'll respect you for asking them and being open-minded about improving.
Or it could be just a matter of seniority as you suggest. I don't personally believe that seniority is a good way to handle filling slots. It leaves new members out in the cold for long periods of time. What if a long-time member has very poor attendance but decides to show up this week? Should they get a slot over a newer person who's been available for every raid night since 3.2?
It's no easy task to fill slots when so many people are eager to run a new raid zone. Your officers don't have a great system, but at least they seem to have a system. Too many officers just take the players they want with no rationale or policy and expect everyone else to deal. That's probably the worst way to handle it.
Some sort of weekly swapping situation can be a better solution for tanks. That gives all your tanks experience with the fights, which is helpful if one of your regular tanks can't make a raid. Or you could even sub your tanks in from fight to fight based on who still needs the tanking drops from each boss. Either method is preferable to letting your fourth tanks stew.
To all the tanks and other players out there yearning for a shot at ICC, I urge you to help us help you get a raid slot. How can you do that? First of all, if you're new to raiding like Frustrated is, practice, practice, practice. Run PUGs if you have to, but get into some raids and get some boss kills under your belt.
Second, always show up prepared to raid whether you think you'll get a slot or not. Have all the consumables and reagents that you'll need, repair your gear, and know how to get onto your guild's voice chat server. If you get invited and you hold up the raid because you don't have what you need, you're only decreasing your chances of getting invited again in the future.
Third, read up on the encounters and watch videos so you're not walking into a boss fight blind. Raid leaders don't want to explain every mechanic on every boss all night long. They have to go over the critical elements, but they don't want to explain why you shouldn't stand in the green circles. If you're getting benched, a big part of it could be that you just don't understand the fights well enough.
If you're confused about something, ask another player in your role for advice before you ask the raid leader. Particularly in a 25-player run, the RL has enough to organize and deal with. He or she doesn't have always time to personally walk you through all aspects of the encounter. Even so, it's better to ask somebody, anybody, than to die to something silly because you didn't know what to do.
Finally, be flexible. Tanks with no offspec are the most difficult to find slots for, especially if you're new to a zone. You're a much greater asset to the raid if you can swap to a DPS or healing role without causing a major drop in performance. Purchase a dual spec. Learn your offspec as well as you've learned tanking. Gear up that set via Triumph emblems and the new ICC dungeons. That goes for DPS hybrids, too!
All of these steps will improve your chances of getting a slot, in one role or another.
If your guild has any, what do you do with your fourth or fifth tanks?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Tim Jan 25th 2010 2:12PM
Great article. I had similar issues when I started raiding. I think it is much better now for warriors since we are so gear dependant, so there is something to be thankful about. Right?
My opinion is to find a guild that like you. We are all playing this game to have fun, and it sounds like you are not. I get into raids for a few reasons, most of which have nothing to do with my 1337ness. This is not the way to be apart a progression guild, but I am having loads of fun.
Pro tip. Fish feast. Everyone loves the guy that drops the fish feast.
(cutaia) Jan 25th 2010 3:08PM
I try to be the fish feast guy. Also, keep a few Scroll of Fortification on hand for those times when you find your raid sans priest. Sure, it's not as good at making an impression cause people will take it for granted, but it's definitely another nice thing to do.
Thundrcrackr Jan 25th 2010 4:28PM
I say find a new guild.
Chances are you will continue to sit out until ICC becomes old news and the "starters" or the "A" team get all the gear they want, start to lose interest, and finally decide to take a break from WoW until Cata comes out. If you're not fortunate enough to be one of the senior members of most guilds then chances are you won't be able to play much until the lull periods that generally precede major patches or expansions.
I've also noticed these lull periods seem to be when a lot of guilds are recruiting, too. New recruits come in, get to raid right away and think "this is great" but then a new raid patch drops and suddenly all the senior members come out of the woodwork and take their spots back leaving the new guys to ride the bench, once again. It sucks but nothing you can really do about it i guess, other than start your own guild or hope one of the senior members leaves or quits WoW for good.
Julie Jan 26th 2010 6:12AM
Lamentably I'm in a similar situation :/
In my guild there's a dozen healers, which I'm one. Out of them, I'm generally one of the best performing; but am also one of the newest. So I get sat out of many fights, so the more senior members can gear up and get badges. Mostly I'm not a first choice unless more senior healers aren't on. I feel like the main reason they let me hang around, is because they know I'm good, and don't want to lose access "just in case". But definitely, I'm not getting that they really have my interests in mind.
While I understand why. They want to be loyal to people who have demonstrated their willingness to stick with the guild. In the end the practice is unfair to new members; and not even based on merit. I've not left because I actually like the membership. But don't think I haven't wondered if I'd be happier somewhere else. The main thing I'd recommend is make sure to PUG 10 man ICC, and VOA when it comes out. Keep your gear current. Maybe don't even show up for raid nights while the "senior" members have their fun. Then in a month or so when everyone gets bored, they'll be begging you to run if you can wait. If you can't, then take your time and look around for a guild that will appreciate your efforts better. It is a game, and if you're not having fun, then what's the point.
BigBadGooz Jan 26th 2010 11:33AM
"Pro tip. Fish feast. Everyone loves the guy that drops the fish feast."
I am that guy.
4th tank my suggestion start your own 10 man grp get whatever gear that way include any of the leaderships alts if possible and build a decent dps set so u can at least sub a dps slot if possible.
Byron Jan 26th 2010 8:03PM
^^ This. If OP's guild has 35-40 people showing up for a 25man raid, take the initiative to start and lead a 10man group. Better yet, work w/ someone else capable of raid leading to start 2x 10man groups, which can then be merged into a 2nd 25man group. That is, if you think the guild is worthy of such efforts on your part.
RVCA18 Jan 25th 2010 2:23PM
We run and ICC 25 alt run on the weekends and bring in anybody that we couldn't bring in during the normal raid times. We get about as far as our mains since our alts are pretty geared out.
I remember the first week when ICC 25 came out our alts downed Saurfang on the weekend.
Nolls74 Jan 25th 2010 3:23PM
in addition to that, if the senders guild really does get 35-40 ppl, why doesn't he just ask permission to run his own 10man raid for all those left out? I'm sure the officers wouldn't mind the alternates getting experience with the fight, ilvl 251 gear and dealing with a few of the frusterated ones while the main group does the 25man stuff. If you don't have enough of one role, pug what you can't fill from those other 10-15 guildies.
Marita Jan 25th 2010 3:42PM
It seems to my that those officers like to have many people in queue just in case.
Maybe having 10 guildies busy is not something they like, because they could not take them away from that run to patch up theirs if needed.
However, 15 guys left behind seems too much for my liking
Fatamorgana Jan 25th 2010 2:20PM
Also, don't overlook tanking for the dreaded raid-pug.
/shudders
Still, there's almost always a call for a tank for 10's and 25's.
With that you gain some experience and a chance to upgrade your gear.
You still have an option to tank for somebody. Given time, if your guild's officers see you making the attempts and notice your gear score improve, and believe you've gained the experience...maybe they'll finally give you the shot you've been waiting for.
Tim Jan 25th 2010 2:29PM
"If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge ball"
Replace dodge with "tank"
Replace wrench with "PUG"
Replace ball with "Guild run"
amirite?
Linaa Jan 25th 2010 3:03PM
Tim is pretty much right. PUGging is good gear, practice, and reminds you why you join a guild in the first place....
and believe me, guild officers WILL see you wonking on your game in PUGs.
Broken_toes Jan 25th 2010 2:22PM
Yeah this kinda blows. What i reckon you should do is go to another guild, there isn't any sense in hanging around.
Actually scratch that, see if the guild will let you run a 10 man gearing run on the side- sure I know your after the 25 goodies, but it shows you'll stick around and that your willing to help. Just quitting makes you look like the Diva all tanks and healers are.
I imagine theres about 4 times as many DPS in your guild in the same boat, sure you may have to pug the odd healer, help the other folk on the sidelines gear up maybe. But in the long run its just way more satisfying having a solid 10 man group get to end game- it just means more.
If its one o the top raid guilds then yeah I imagine they have some thing like- "you have to just be available if some one drops"- if thats the case, then bugger them.
I don't quite see the attraction of that sort of guild, I know the need to replace the tank cause he has to go. But I would never expect them to sit around twiddling they're thumbs "just in case".
Long and short of it- if your not "allowed" to take the folk left out on a ICC/TOC raid in the meantime, leave your guild. Have a scout around for friendly raiding guild- theres bound to be a good few that need a tank.
But mind I don't know you, I don't know your guild and how they operate- end of the day if your getting left out for no real reason, there isn't a point in staying.
Glaras Jan 25th 2010 3:20PM
"I imagine theres about 4 times as many DPS in your guild in the same boat, sure you may have to pug the odd healer, help the other folk on the sidelines gear up maybe. But in the long run its just way more satisfying having a solid 10 man group get to end game- it just means more."
We don't know that there are 4 times as many DPS in his shoes *in that guild*. The original letter doesn't say that, only that 35-40 people show up every night. Are the DPS getting rotated in? What about the healers? If it's only the 5th tank (in his case) getting benched night after night, well... Something's wrong, and it isn't with Frustrated. Two months of this kind of thing suggests that they're content to let him sit. As for the advice that the RLs might not have confidence in his ability, well then, why did they take him in? If they're just trying to have a warm body to throw into the mix in case they run short of tanks, at least they should have the decency to tell him that. "Be patient" for 4+ weeks, 3 nights a week? That's going to get seriously old, very fast.
Your suggestion to have him essentially form up a solid 10-man within the guild structure is a good one. There are some top-caliber raiders who are burning out on 25-mans, but still want to raid. And it's been said by some that the 10-mans have less room for error, that everybody has to be on target to drop the content. (And I think that's true.) Some of those folks will prefer the challenge of the 10-mans over the 25's. Frustrated should see if he can find those folks.
Finally, there's a good possibility that a dedicated 10-man can progress further, faster into a raid instance than a 25, simple because of the encounter-tuning. 10-mans tend to be less demanding of total DPS-output, for example, so some high-output folks might able to knife through a boss that rocks the 25-man group back a few times. Being a part of that kind of 10-man could result in being a kind of "vanguard" group that reports on weird mechanics, or strategies that work well (or vice-versa). All good reasons to see if spooling up a 10-man group can be done.
Good luck, Frustrated!
Broken_toes Jan 25th 2010 4:00PM
In my experience of running ICC, there isn't really a lot of stuff for tanks. I use my rogue main for the ICC runs, maybe I'm just lucky, but I seem to get at least one or 2 drops per run- and least that many chances to roll.
Our 10 man crews have one rogue each, no special reason- just they way it is. 10 man runs I was getting bout 4 pieces per run (axes, trinkets, armour + emblems and rep). Sure there's hunters on our 10 mans - but as i say I've been lucky (we don't do funny loot rolls, and ye the hunters have gotten gear they need).
On the otherside of it- tanks really don't have that much stuff they can roll on in ICC- its either leather melee DPS, or something casters have a hard on for.
Rotating DPS I suppose seems reasonable, but why not do that with tanks? mainly because you have to rely on them working together in a lot of the ICC bosses, and if you do rotate a tank on a boss that may drop tank gear, it pisses the rotated guy right off (whether they really need the drop or not, everyone wants new gear) - when a tank has his place in a constant raid crew, they stick with it unless they can't play for whatever reason.
Yes 10 man runs are a demand, especially if your doing it with folk you don't know (by that I mean you will have a vast amount of dps begging to join, then asking "what are tactics" at the boss- its a real drag. Its why frustrated has a problem getting a place, the raid doesn't know him, or hasn't raided with him so don't want to take a chance on him.
2 months with out a bone is a long time to go, "be patient" doesn't cut it, what you need to do is get a raid crew of your own on the go- and be prepared to see f all tank gear (ICC has bugger all, but its fun). Your a tank, there is no requirement for you to stay with any particular guild. You deserve to play end game, thats why you pay subscription.
Don't be afraid to go it alone, if you get on with the guild then stay. But what ever you do- don't get forced to sit with your thumb up your arse- get your own raid on the go, take your guildies that are left in the same position. PuG what you need, if they're decent players then friend them- if your guildies that do come suck nads and don't learn, don't take them. If it comes to it that the guild leadership gets pissed off that you do this- then sod them- tell them to go suck a lemon! Your a tank you can do what you want (long as you ain't a dick about it).
If your in a "top" raiding guild just because its top, then you have made a massive mistake- they have they're raid group organised, your a last resort.
P.S i know there are 4 times as many DPS in the same spot in the same guild, just because its completely unbelievable that they are healers or tanks, less I'm on some funny realm where those 2 classes are in short supply...
KBear Jan 25th 2010 2:22PM
Off-specs for the win here. Our MT and our other warrior tank, who has a wacky schedule due to work, are the only ones who do not run an off-spec in 25-mans- I run as tank or heals and our paladin can tank or DPS. Since besides the other warrior tank we're all there pretty much every raid night, it works pretty well.
obc Jan 25th 2010 2:23PM
1. why does your raid even hire 5 tanks o.O i can understand having at most 4 tanks but 5 tanks is strechting it. Having 5 Tanks is a bit too much if most of them are showing all the time and one is always left out (in this case you).
2. Talk with the other tanks: ask them wether they want to switch with you that day or not. In my raid the 3 (sometimes 4) tanks discussed the matter privatly. Sometimes the tanks (even healer and dps) would switch inbetween two bosses so that everyone could have a shot at at least one boss that night.
3. you did not join the raid to be benched for almost 2 months. they could at least use you for the first 4 bosses and switch you afterwards for the progression fights. it may not be up to the standards you hoped to raid but atleast you wouldnt be sitting around.
4. I bet there are more raids on your server looking for a tank. They maybe not as good but atleast you got to do something. Once you hit the 2 months mark just apply somewhere else. Being Patient ist onething, but paying money for a game which you cant even play the way you intended to for over 2 months is something else.
5. again: talk with the other tanks wether or not they may switch with you for today. I see no reason why not to. all of you are equally geared as you said, there is not reason to choose a tank class over another in ICC and drops dont matter coz ICC is to stay there for the next 6 months.
obc Jan 25th 2010 2:26PM
sorry the bad gramme [WTB] Edit button -.-
dawnseven Jan 25th 2010 2:34PM
Sorry, this was a little hard to follow at times. It would help probably in the future if you called a raid a raid, and a guild a guild. They are 2 different things.
Ashleigh Jan 25th 2010 3:08PM
I don't recommend talking with the other tanks and asking for a spot without talking to the officers first.
Just because your gear is equal, doesn't man your skill actually is.
I used to have in my guild someone who was a shadow priest main, but really wanted to switch to his Death Knight. He went to one of my tanks and asked him if he could tank runs, and got all this permission from him, and suddenly one of my tanks was logging on to runs on his alt, and my shadow priest was on his DK and both were wanting an invite. The tank's alt wasn't so bad, but the shadow priest's DK tanking was horrid and he couldn't hold aggro over a mage evocating.
Generally, it's nice to have backups. If a tank suddenly gets a bad connection, or has an emergency or has to work that night, you have an extra one or two if you have five tanks. But the problem with having five tanks, is each person tanks differently, and each healer you might have has to learn how to heal them. And each healer has to learn how to heal each tank in each fight.
(Number of Healers)x(Number of Tanks)x(Number of Fights)=Time Where DPS WIll Be Able to Do Their Jobs Without Dead Tanks.
Honestly? The guild just likes having the guy as a backup. He should Pug, or go find a new guild. Or with 35 people... 35-25=10! Go do a ten man!!