Officers' Quarters: The fourth tank's lament

It's no secret that tanks are generally in short supply. Blizzard has admitted as much and even designed the Death Knight class specifically to entice more people to taking up the tanking role. They've gone away from fights like the notorious, original implementation of the Four Horsemen encounter that required 8 fully geared tanks and given us more fights like Rotface that only require 2. But for a 25-player raid, you generally need 3.
So what about those fourth tanks? They find themselves riding the pine:
Dear Scott,
I have been playing WoW for just under four months and have worked my butt off to make my Warrior the best tank that I possibly can. I get numerous compliments about my ability and pride myself on being liked by all. I have joined one of the top raiding guilds on my server, but I am finding problems getting selected for raids.
Currently we raid 3 nights a week, and on average, we have 35-40 people showing up EVERY raid night. Obviously, you cannot take 40 people into ICC25 and therein lies the problem. The current state of raids encourages guilds to take 3 tanks at most, and at times, the third tank is running in an offspec, most likely dps. I am one of five tanks in the guild, and the newest of the bunch. All gear is about equal. The other four get selected for raids on a nightly basis based on seniority. I have remained diligent and have shown up for raids every night without fail, only to be told there is no need for me tonight.
I started playing WoWarcraft solely for the end-game raiding scene, and not being able to experience it is extremely frustrating. I've talked to the leadership of the guild and the simple answer I get is "Be patient". It is now going on the 2nd month of sitting out and my patience is running low. At what point should I throw in the towel and look elsewhere for a home? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--Frustrated
I empathize with your situation, Frustrated. It's never fun to sit out week after week. The comfort that I can offer you, as someone who's been playing this game for five years now, is that eventually the interest in ICC will die down and you won't have anything close to 40 people showing up for raids. I guarantee it. So you will get your chance if you can be patient.
You don't have to be. I'm sure there are guilds out there looking for a solid tank if you want to explore your options. But if you like your guild and you want to stay, you will eventually get your chances.
The problem may simply be that your officers don't think you have enough raid experience. If you've only been playing for four months, there are many areas where you may not be as skilled as other tanks.
The fact is that tanks often make or break a raid, so raid leaders have to choose very carefully. Tanking can be very difficult in endgame raids, and the success of the run often depends on their ability to think on their feet and react instinctively.
Look at the early ICC encounters. In many of these fights, the tanks have a tough job and experience is a key factor in their performance:
- Marrowgar: Tanks have to stay together, pick him up quickly after a Bone Storm, and face him in the right direction so people don't take a Saber Lash to the face.
- Lady Deathwhisper: Tanks have to be on the ball here, picking up all the adds as they come out, knowing which adds to tank and which have to be kited, and managing tank swaps in Phase 2.
- Deathbringer Saurfang: Tanks have very little to do here. Even so, they could easily cause a wipe by accidentally aggo'ing the blood beasts or failing to taunt when Rune of Blood is cast.
- Rotface: The slime-kiting tank has a really tough job here.
- Professor Putricide: Positioning of the boss is critical, and a tank is also usually the one driving the "abomination" vehicle. The order of your tank swaps in Phase 3 can decide whether you're assigning loot or watching your limited-attempt counter tick down.
Frustrated, it could be that your officers think you lack the raiding experience to cope with these situations. Ask them if they feel you can improve your play in any way and see what they say. Even if they don't have a specific suggestion, they'll respect you for asking them and being open-minded about improving.
Or it could be just a matter of seniority as you suggest. I don't personally believe that seniority is a good way to handle filling slots. It leaves new members out in the cold for long periods of time. What if a long-time member has very poor attendance but decides to show up this week? Should they get a slot over a newer person who's been available for every raid night since 3.2?
It's no easy task to fill slots when so many people are eager to run a new raid zone. Your officers don't have a great system, but at least they seem to have a system. Too many officers just take the players they want with no rationale or policy and expect everyone else to deal. That's probably the worst way to handle it.
Some sort of weekly swapping situation can be a better solution for tanks. That gives all your tanks experience with the fights, which is helpful if one of your regular tanks can't make a raid. Or you could even sub your tanks in from fight to fight based on who still needs the tanking drops from each boss. Either method is preferable to letting your fourth tanks stew.
To all the tanks and other players out there yearning for a shot at ICC, I urge you to help us help you get a raid slot. How can you do that? First of all, if you're new to raiding like Frustrated is, practice, practice, practice. Run PUGs if you have to, but get into some raids and get some boss kills under your belt.
Second, always show up prepared to raid whether you think you'll get a slot or not. Have all the consumables and reagents that you'll need, repair your gear, and know how to get onto your guild's voice chat server. If you get invited and you hold up the raid because you don't have what you need, you're only decreasing your chances of getting invited again in the future.
Third, read up on the encounters and watch videos so you're not walking into a boss fight blind. Raid leaders don't want to explain every mechanic on every boss all night long. They have to go over the critical elements, but they don't want to explain why you shouldn't stand in the green circles. If you're getting benched, a big part of it could be that you just don't understand the fights well enough.
If you're confused about something, ask another player in your role for advice before you ask the raid leader. Particularly in a 25-player run, the RL has enough to organize and deal with. He or she doesn't have always time to personally walk you through all aspects of the encounter. Even so, it's better to ask somebody, anybody, than to die to something silly because you didn't know what to do.
Finally, be flexible. Tanks with no offspec are the most difficult to find slots for, especially if you're new to a zone. You're a much greater asset to the raid if you can swap to a DPS or healing role without causing a major drop in performance. Purchase a dual spec. Learn your offspec as well as you've learned tanking. Gear up that set via Triumph emblems and the new ICC dungeons. That goes for DPS hybrids, too!
All of these steps will improve your chances of getting a slot, in one role or another.
If your guild has any, what do you do with your fourth or fifth tanks?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
obc Jan 25th 2010 3:58PM
@Ashleigh:
yeah one shouldn't just switch spots with a tank without the permission of the officers.
example: in our guild we have 4 mages. We mages are always attending but coz only 3 mages can fit any given day we discuss privatly who is going to bench and who isn't. When i was new to the guild some seniors switched for me even on progression fight like AnubHC25.
A tank is a different and more difficult matter, that is correct but If the officers are fine with it and the healers too one should ask the other tanks if they might want to switch for some boss fights.
It's even more important that the tanks rotate so that everyone of em knows how the fight works and how the healer have to handle them coz it would be an even bigger problem it lets say the OP has to tank some night coz 2 tanks are missing and he has never tanked that encounter and the healer never healed em for like 2 months.
to your example: in this case a tank who has already been tested would switch with another tank and not a dps with another tank.
And yeah having backup is good, but 5 Tanks is really too much. I dont even know why they invited him to the guild when they have already 4 tanks and their attendence seems to be quite ok.
@dawnseven: yeah i guess it was hard to follow, i raid on a german server and on our server we tend to call the raiding guilds just 'raid' coz the people in it are mostly from different guilds.
SimonT Jan 25th 2010 2:23PM
It seems your guild have too many players to support. This happened in my guild as well once ICC hit (suddenly everyone wanted to raid!). In 10mans it was easy, we just run more teams (4 teams a week now, compared to our earlier 1-2).
25mans are not so easy.
Provided that you don't have other ties that makes you want to stay in guild, i'd say it's time to switch guild. Explain the reasons to the officers, and I can almost guarantee there won't be any hard feelings. While they won't say so, in a way they will almost be happy to see you go, cause thats one less person that they have to dissapoint by benching.
As a guild leader, I know for a fact that it sucks just as much having to tell people that they can't raid, as to recieve the same message.
STARF Jan 25th 2010 2:26PM
I wish i had frustrated's problem, because i like cat dps as much as bear dps :)
Richardboone Jan 25th 2010 2:29PM
I wish we had you. We are trying to a 25 man team going. Have a solid 10 man core. Come to WoW the Musical on Shandris and we will give you a home :-)
Tobie Jan 25th 2010 2:34PM
ah yes. The number 1 reason I have decided to retire my tank. I dusted him off last night for some insta-queue fun. However this article reminds me I shouldn't bother.
Cynra Jan 25th 2010 2:37PM
Given that there are forty people logging in every raid night, shouldn't that be an indication that a second twenty-five man raid should be started up? Take the initiative, Frustrated; approach your officers and mention that you're interested in starting up a second raid. Snag the fifteen people who aren't being taken to raids, grab some friends, set up an alliance, and start managing that second raid.
The benefits of this are two-fold. You get the opportunity and experience needed to successfully run Icecrown Citadel and you provide your officers with visible proof of your proficiency. Not to mention that being in charge also puts you in the position of being able to ensure that you are one of those three tanks.
It's not necessarily the optimal solution, but it's something that has pretty high returns. If twenty-five is too overwhelming to attempt initially, try organizing a weekly ten man and work your way up to twenty-five.
Zanathos Jan 25th 2010 7:47PM
Running competing guild runs is a huge headache. I know on the surface it seems great, just round up a few more people and form a second run, but it practice, it tends to be less than ideal. Most guilds raid more than one day a week. The same 25 people are generally not in every raid. When you have two simultaneous raids going on, you've split the guild over into two separate raid IDs. On the second raid night of the week, you might not be able to fill up either raid, and you'll lack the flexibility to mix in the roles you need, since everyone will be locked. If you've stretched your resources to the limit to fill two raids, you need everyone one of those 50 people to come back or close to it, and that's not realistic. You'll really need closer to 60-70 people to reliably fill two raid groups. This is, after all, why guilds have more than 25 raiders. Very few can expect everyone to make every raid.
This isn't even considering the drama that arises from one group doing better than the other, or friends/spouses being split across two groups, and so on. When the game was making the transition from 40 man raids in class to 25 mans in BC, the go-to plan for most guilds was recruit 15 more people, and run two 25 man raids. Yet i've never actually heard of a case where that worked, and a single 25 man force became the standard for guilds.
Tinwhisker Jan 25th 2010 2:40PM
It's not easy starting in a new guild. I remember when I started in my current guild, I sat a lot. Like Scott says though, there may be 35+ people on right now but when Arthas is dead for the first time or the content becomes difficult for your group, players will start to slowly disappear.
Just remember, when you joined the guild, the officers picked you because they thought you had worth to the group. Don't let the sitting that you (and everyone else) endure at the beginning make you think otherwise.
Siaperas Jan 25th 2010 2:46PM
I agree with all these points. Tanking is a tough job, and requires a lot of preparation. Since dual-specs have been released, I'm of the understanding that a good tank is prepared to tank or fill another slot according to the needs of the raid. Not only does it show your attention to raid success, it allows for more flexibility within the raid. If tanks have dps offspecs, it allows new tanks to "tank to learn," while main tanks dps. If an encounter is proving difficult or needs your main stays to tank instead, the tanks can then switch rolls to get past the boss. Of course, you'll have to worry about loot issues but this allows great movement within the raid. Tanks are at the forefront of raid; we stand there in the boss's face, leading the charge while our friends do what they can to bring it down. Lead that charge by example, be prepared, be flexible, be willing. It's the best way to not only get you a raid spot, but to keep you coming.
lilham Jan 25th 2010 3:10PM
No, it actually means you should only have 2-3 main spec tanks in a 25man raid group, and run your dps as offspec tank when you actually need 3 tanks, which is not common.
Kroof Jan 25th 2010 2:53PM
I have run into this same problem, but from a GM's perspective.
We have 5 tanks in our guild. With the current makeup of ICC you have 4 tanks for the 10 mans and usually only 2, maybe 3 for the 25 mans. (Don't even get me started on healers).
In a perfect world a guild would only have 4 tanks, one of which loves playing his offspec. However, IRL is a mean B and sometimes one of your top 3 tanks can't make it. Expecting 100% raid attendance no matter what is a bit much. And it sucks to have to postpone a raid because 1 person doesn't show up. Thus, 5 tanks is the usual solution.
It does kinda suck for this tank. But how would the other tanks, whom have been around much longer and have put their effort in too, feel if this new guy was taking their raid spots?
If you aren't happy with the situation you are in with your guild, leave. Do it politely and honestly. Any decent guild will understand. They need someone who is willing to be sidelined a lot. You don't want to be sidelined.
You either have to be patient and wait, or find greener pastures.
Ringo Flinthammer Jan 25th 2010 3:15PM
"It does kinda suck for this tank. But how would the other tanks, whom have been around much longer and have put their effort in too, feel if this new guy was taking their raid spots?"
Like it's most fair to rotate? It's the most fair to the raid, too, because tank #5 needs to learn the fights so that the whole raid isn't screwed when one of the regulars is out.
obc Jan 25th 2010 4:49PM
i'd suggest going for 4 tanks and having some plate dps offspec as tank and equip him with everything the attending tanks dont need.
we do this in our guild. we have 4 tanks and if 2 tanks are missing any given day we have that dps switch to tank for that day.
same goes for shadowpriest: we have only 1 shadow but if he is missing one of our healing priests switches to shadow that day.
(ofcourse you have to plan this beforehand and equip the person who is willing to off-tank or off-whatever)
or as the poster above me said: let your tanks rotate. you can't have the 5th tank sit on the bench all month long. he won't get experience and miss out on some gear opportunities.
Zanathos Jan 25th 2010 8:00PM
I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone to accept being sidelined indefinately, especially if they're any sort of decent player. Just getting into a guild isn't the huge honor it used to be, as any decent tank, healer, or even DPS can have a fairly successful WoW career as a freelancer now. Rotating the tanks would certainly be the more fair approach, allow for the possibility of retaining new people who are otherwise going to take off, and get the newer tanks used to the fights. I can't imagine keeping a tank on ice is going to do much for his tanking skills either. Nothing to boost morale like bringing in a rusty tank who hasn't done the fights when one of your regulars can't make it.
Kroof Jan 26th 2010 6:12PM
To clarify my original statement.
I did not mean that tank #5 gets left completely out of the raids. Of course he would be taken as a dps off spec. I know its not tanking, but he will still get the idea of teh fight and won't be totally surprised when he finally does get in.
Rotating IS a good idea.
Updawg Jan 25th 2010 4:26PM
I'm more like the 5th tank, I don't even know why my raiding guild recruited me tbh.
We have two ICC10 man's for which I ride the bench, a icc25 group which I weasel my way into by not having a sufficient dps os.
The icing on the cake is all the raiding guilds already have set tanks, sure tanks may be in short supply for pugs, but for guilds, haha good luck is all I can say.
Morcego Jan 25th 2010 2:53PM
Oh, how I know how you feel. Been there myself.
I joined a guild back on BC, exactly as the 4th tank. Most content needed 2 tanks, sometimes 3. I would sit out and watch them kill stuff in TK. I was fairly confident in my abilities. I was sure all I needed was a chance. So, during that time, I would get the off nights to run T4 content. Even minor gear improvement I could get, I would. I would also make a point that, sometimes, to get the worst players (relatively speaking) on my 10man T4 group (Kara).
Eventually, one night the 3rd tank was not there, and I was. So, since a lot of people on the guild was used to me tanking stuff, I've got the spot. Temporary. The 3rd tank got back, and I was on hold again. This happened a few times, until the 3rd tank had to take a short leave and, when he came back, he was the 4th tank. Eventually I've got to be 2nd tank on the guild, and be there for all the raids. Yes, it took a few months, but that was to be expected. (Then I broke my arm and could not raid as a tank anymore, but that is a different history).
There are a few things that are important, besides gear and being "a good tank". People need to be used to your tanking style. You need to have enough experience to handle the "oh hell" moments, when someone fouls up. Today, tanking is my offspec. We have 5-6 mainspec tanks on the guild, and I can outtank most of them, due to experience. Yes, when nothing wrong happens during a fight, they can do, maybe, even a better job than I can. But when things get screwed, because of my previous experience, I can control the situation more often than some of those tanks (we have 2 really good tank that can outtank me anytime).
I'm sorry, but no one, I repeat, no one gets to be a top raiding tank with 4 months of experience, specially (not) raiding 3 nights a week. You can have gear potential. You can be a great heroic tank, or even a 10man tank. But 25man, endgame content, is a whole different ballgame.
My suggestion ? Stick to it. Read, read, read on theorycraft, then read some more. Practice. Use Rawr and other optimization tools. Be ready for when you get your chance. When you do get a spot on that 25man raid, if you foul it, you won't get another other for months (if ever). Go back and run Sunwell. Yes, it is lvl 70 content. And yes, your raid will wipe there if they don't have the experience/knowledge. I mean it. I saw guild that were clearing H-ToC and wiped on Sunwell multiple times.
In a nutshell: be prepared for when the moment comes.
Ringo Flinthammer Jan 25th 2010 2:54PM
I'd definitely look into the following, in order:
1) Alt runs (if you have 40 people showing up each raid, there really ought to be alt runs happening);
2) Raiding alliance runs (i.e. non-guild raids, but ones with people who show up all the time, so that there's a certain level of knowing what to expect from everyone else);
3) PUG raids;
4) Find a new home, if all else fails. Five tanks for a raiding guild is nuts, and they really should have told you flat-out that you wouldn't be seeing much if any raid time as a tank.
Ringo Flinthammer Jan 25th 2010 3:18PM
Oh, and what about 10-man ICC to learn the ropes? With 40 friggin' people, you guys should be running several of these a week, and it's a good way to learn the fights for 25.
Teni Jan 25th 2010 3:02PM
Holy moly, 40 people? That's way too many. It's a very difficult and fine balance, but a guild shouldn't really have more than 33 or so raiders. Chances are, some people cannot attend due to real life obligations, and some people may have connection issues. If you can have a 5-seat bench then you are in very good shape. 40 just leads to a lot of unhappy people.