Officers' Quarters: The fourth tank's lament

It's no secret that tanks are generally in short supply. Blizzard has admitted as much and even designed the Death Knight class specifically to entice more people to taking up the tanking role. They've gone away from fights like the notorious, original implementation of the Four Horsemen encounter that required 8 fully geared tanks and given us more fights like Rotface that only require 2. But for a 25-player raid, you generally need 3.
So what about those fourth tanks? They find themselves riding the pine:
Dear Scott,
I have been playing WoW for just under four months and have worked my butt off to make my Warrior the best tank that I possibly can. I get numerous compliments about my ability and pride myself on being liked by all. I have joined one of the top raiding guilds on my server, but I am finding problems getting selected for raids.
Currently we raid 3 nights a week, and on average, we have 35-40 people showing up EVERY raid night. Obviously, you cannot take 40 people into ICC25 and therein lies the problem. The current state of raids encourages guilds to take 3 tanks at most, and at times, the third tank is running in an offspec, most likely dps. I am one of five tanks in the guild, and the newest of the bunch. All gear is about equal. The other four get selected for raids on a nightly basis based on seniority. I have remained diligent and have shown up for raids every night without fail, only to be told there is no need for me tonight.
I started playing WoWarcraft solely for the end-game raiding scene, and not being able to experience it is extremely frustrating. I've talked to the leadership of the guild and the simple answer I get is "Be patient". It is now going on the 2nd month of sitting out and my patience is running low. At what point should I throw in the towel and look elsewhere for a home? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--Frustrated
I empathize with your situation, Frustrated. It's never fun to sit out week after week. The comfort that I can offer you, as someone who's been playing this game for five years now, is that eventually the interest in ICC will die down and you won't have anything close to 40 people showing up for raids. I guarantee it. So you will get your chance if you can be patient.
You don't have to be. I'm sure there are guilds out there looking for a solid tank if you want to explore your options. But if you like your guild and you want to stay, you will eventually get your chances.
The problem may simply be that your officers don't think you have enough raid experience. If you've only been playing for four months, there are many areas where you may not be as skilled as other tanks.
The fact is that tanks often make or break a raid, so raid leaders have to choose very carefully. Tanking can be very difficult in endgame raids, and the success of the run often depends on their ability to think on their feet and react instinctively.
Look at the early ICC encounters. In many of these fights, the tanks have a tough job and experience is a key factor in their performance:
- Marrowgar: Tanks have to stay together, pick him up quickly after a Bone Storm, and face him in the right direction so people don't take a Saber Lash to the face.
- Lady Deathwhisper: Tanks have to be on the ball here, picking up all the adds as they come out, knowing which adds to tank and which have to be kited, and managing tank swaps in Phase 2.
- Deathbringer Saurfang: Tanks have very little to do here. Even so, they could easily cause a wipe by accidentally aggo'ing the blood beasts or failing to taunt when Rune of Blood is cast.
- Rotface: The slime-kiting tank has a really tough job here.
- Professor Putricide: Positioning of the boss is critical, and a tank is also usually the one driving the "abomination" vehicle. The order of your tank swaps in Phase 3 can decide whether you're assigning loot or watching your limited-attempt counter tick down.
Frustrated, it could be that your officers think you lack the raiding experience to cope with these situations. Ask them if they feel you can improve your play in any way and see what they say. Even if they don't have a specific suggestion, they'll respect you for asking them and being open-minded about improving.
Or it could be just a matter of seniority as you suggest. I don't personally believe that seniority is a good way to handle filling slots. It leaves new members out in the cold for long periods of time. What if a long-time member has very poor attendance but decides to show up this week? Should they get a slot over a newer person who's been available for every raid night since 3.2?
It's no easy task to fill slots when so many people are eager to run a new raid zone. Your officers don't have a great system, but at least they seem to have a system. Too many officers just take the players they want with no rationale or policy and expect everyone else to deal. That's probably the worst way to handle it.
Some sort of weekly swapping situation can be a better solution for tanks. That gives all your tanks experience with the fights, which is helpful if one of your regular tanks can't make a raid. Or you could even sub your tanks in from fight to fight based on who still needs the tanking drops from each boss. Either method is preferable to letting your fourth tanks stew.
To all the tanks and other players out there yearning for a shot at ICC, I urge you to help us help you get a raid slot. How can you do that? First of all, if you're new to raiding like Frustrated is, practice, practice, practice. Run PUGs if you have to, but get into some raids and get some boss kills under your belt.
Second, always show up prepared to raid whether you think you'll get a slot or not. Have all the consumables and reagents that you'll need, repair your gear, and know how to get onto your guild's voice chat server. If you get invited and you hold up the raid because you don't have what you need, you're only decreasing your chances of getting invited again in the future.
Third, read up on the encounters and watch videos so you're not walking into a boss fight blind. Raid leaders don't want to explain every mechanic on every boss all night long. They have to go over the critical elements, but they don't want to explain why you shouldn't stand in the green circles. If you're getting benched, a big part of it could be that you just don't understand the fights well enough.
If you're confused about something, ask another player in your role for advice before you ask the raid leader. Particularly in a 25-player run, the RL has enough to organize and deal with. He or she doesn't have always time to personally walk you through all aspects of the encounter. Even so, it's better to ask somebody, anybody, than to die to something silly because you didn't know what to do.
Finally, be flexible. Tanks with no offspec are the most difficult to find slots for, especially if you're new to a zone. You're a much greater asset to the raid if you can swap to a DPS or healing role without causing a major drop in performance. Purchase a dual spec. Learn your offspec as well as you've learned tanking. Gear up that set via Triumph emblems and the new ICC dungeons. That goes for DPS hybrids, too!
All of these steps will improve your chances of getting a slot, in one role or another.
If your guild has any, what do you do with your fourth or fifth tanks?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jan 25th 2010 3:05PM
If I understand this right, the person leveled a tank in 2 months and then wanted to be put on raids immediately, but had to sit out each and every time for another 2 months.
Tell me something: what exactly is he doing with respect to gear in that time and with respect to experience with the runs. Is he improving his gear in 5 mans or pug raids? Is he attempting to read up on fights, do pugs to at least get some experience... or is he sitting doing nothing when he's sat?
You see, it's easy to get complimented on your skill, but if you don't have gear or bother to get the experience, that doesn't really hold the ship up in the end. Don't get me wrong, skill is important, but without the gear to cover you, it can only go so far.
Hoggersbud Jan 25th 2010 3:50PM
According to the person with the problem:
All gear is about equal.
So I would not handwave gear off as the problem here.
As for doing pugs, there is a problem with doing that. Say you pug 25-man ICC, but then your guild needs you to sub in to finish it...well, there you go. There are guilds who don't care if you pug out, there are those who do. What this one feels? No telling, but I can see how it might be a problem.
Undra Jan 25th 2010 3:06PM
Suggest an off-night raid and offer to lead it. Just a pilot run for the people that show up but rarely get to go to the main raid and a few alts. Don't expect to clear the whole thing, but it will give those left behind a chance to experience the first few bosses and get some verdict rep. And it will give you a chance to hone your skills.
Otherwise, find a new guild. If they haven't been rotating anyone based on "seniority", then they aren't going to start anytime soon. Once arthas comes out it'll be time for hard modes and the excuse will be lack of gear, that you didn't get, because they didn't bring you.
They are only hurting themselves in the long run by alienating half their raiders, and when the day comes they do need a replacement, it'll be undergeared, and inexperienced. And the officers will shrug off the blame onto the benchwarmer.
Baroo Jan 25th 2010 3:14PM
You have to ask yourself a question -- do you want to sit on the bench for the Yankees and win a World Series? Or bat cleanup and play every day for the Kansas City Royals?
Ringo Flinthammer Jan 25th 2010 3:17PM
Unless he's getting paid, this is sort of an inane question.
"WOW! YOU'RE IN FIRES OF HEAVEN ... of course, you have raiding achievements at all. So ... grats, level 80 guild mule?"
Actually, the mule is better off: He at least gets to handle the BOE epics from ICC.
Anonymoose Jan 25th 2010 3:20PM
Just because it's the Kansas City Royals doesn't mean I don't know who Zack Grenke is now.
dogbert12 Jan 25th 2010 3:17PM
If you have a class leader you could talk to him.
When I played I was the druid class leader.
I was also a primary healer. When I had new druids come in.
On encounters that I felt their lack of experience of weaker gear wouldn't be too much of a factor, I would swap them in.
I'd drop group, they'd get invited, and do the encounter. And I'd swap back in if needed.
Yes, it screws with your raid locking. But it can be very beneficial.
But as the author said, always be prepared.
Saying you want to go, and waiting at the instance entrance in repaired gear and full raiding components is a big difference.
It never took me more then a week to know who those were that were "just in the guild", and who was there putting in their time and ready to step up.
VSUReaper Jan 25th 2010 3:25PM
Keep your eyes and ears peeled for another guild that is already established themselves as a raiding guild (not one of these guilds that come and go overnight that are looking to "start" raiding but will never get out of the gearing phase), but stick with yours for a little bit longer.
I would speak to the GM/RL as well as the class/role leader and voice your feelings to them privately. Talk to them and find out why your not getting taken, and see if they can start rotating you in for trash and for a boss that the others dont need (I say trash so you have a slightly better chance at the gun and for rep for the rings). See if they have any 10 mans you can work with to get more rep as well as get experience on the fights.
Scott hit the nail on the head when he said that if you have only been playing for around 4 months, you are lacking overal experience in raids, especially with your raid. Learning how to chain CD's (yours and other's) and general communication amoungst your raid is very important, and while you might be a kickass tank in 5 mans, raids are usually a different ball game.
Worst case scenario, you ask for the no BS assessment of the situation from where they stand, and they tell you go DPS in the meantime or its not going to happen, and you take your options. If they say they feel you lack the experience or gear, ask how you can obtain that. If its gear, ask for some goals (30% dodge and X amt of HP) and if its experience, ask if they can start doing some raids on the off nights (this will also help get gear if you are lacking in that dept) so you can start learning that experience (Ulduar hardmodes, TOGC, etc).
Good luck, I have also sat on the sidelines and then played catch up, and I dont regret a single minute of it. The officers noticed my patience, and saw that I was working hard to build up my gear to be the best that it could be.
zappo Jan 25th 2010 3:30PM
I'm not sure I'd wait for the future when interest in ICC has died down. By the time one of the tanks doesn't show up, you're probably dropping healers and top dps as well. Suddenly raids are getting tougher, and you just can't plow through things as you used to. Then your guild just decides to call it quits on raiding until the next expansion. If it sounds at all like this is what's going to happen, I don't think I'd wait.
Trying to get together a 10 man raid sounds like a good option as well. You'll learn the fights, and still see the content.
Hoggersbud Jan 25th 2010 3:53PM
Look for another guild that will give you a slot. Then tell your current guild, no hard feelings, but you want to raid,a nd that's not happening, so you're going elsewhere.
Assertiveness is just as much of a virtue as patience.
clundgren Jan 25th 2010 3:59PM
I feel for this poster -- sitting on the bench sucks. But it is sort of the way it goes in progression raiding, and 4 months is not really all that much experience compared to most end-game raiders.
It's not only tanks, either. My main is dps, and I was in my current guild for about, yes, 4 months, with many *years* experience playing my class, before I got a regular spot on our top raid. And I have to fight to hold that spot; even though I'm friends with all the officers and get on well with everyone, if I don't have the DPS to get past Fester, I would have to step back.
This is how it has to be if you want to progress in end-game content. To compensate, my guild has a 2nd 25 man that is learning the ropes but still progressing in ICC, albeit more slowly. Perhaps this is something you can start, as someone else suggested. Then you get the satisfaction and credit when your raid starts to catch up with the first. Or start a 10. This will help you keep pace with gear (almost, anyway) and teach you the fights so that, when your big chance comes, you won't blow it. My first time in our #1 raid, in Ulduar, I subbed in on a fight I didn't know and caused a wipe. Not an auspicious beginning.
Also, keep in mind that in spite of your frustration, if you are in a top tier guild you *will* get to see more content more quickly than most anyone else on your server. Getting to the front of the line in that guild is just a matter of being good, being reliable, and respecting that other good, reliable people have already earned a place ahead of you...but your time will come!
Switching guilds is an option, but all end game progression guilds already have their tanks or they wouldn't be doing that content. So you would likely find yourself in the same spot, or in a guild that is smaller and a bit behind in content. Which might not be a bad thing if you've only been tanking 4 months.
Good luck!
Colleen Jan 25th 2010 4:54PM
In my experience it's very difficult to find a tank spot. I was in a successful guild as one of 3 main tanks. The top 12 players in the guild all server transferred together and left the rest of us to fend for ourselves. I searched for weeks on recruiting websites and official forums and couldn't find a tank spot.
My fiance raid leads for a top 5 guild on our server so I decided to join them and hope for invites. They had enough tanks when I joined, so I was bench warming for awhile. So not only was I 4th tank, I was also unable to raid 1 day out of 3 days a week.
Since I wasn't getting to raid very much, and this was before ICC came out, I started weekly pugs on all 3 of my characters. I brought guildies first and pugs second. These groups were very successful and I was proud of the progress I was making with pug players. When ICC came out I decided to keep going and start a 10 man group of raiders who weren't getting to go with the Officer group, and a 25 man pug with guildies and geared alts from other guilds.
The officers saw me doing this and realized what an asset I was to the guild. Because of my hard work on pugs and 10 mans they gave me Honorary Core Raider rank in the guild. The only trade off was I had to switch main specs to DPS. Now I have an incredibly geared Tank off spec, and DPS main spec for 25 man raids. It's much easier to swap DPS around than tanks.
(I think this counts as an intangible quality as well, so I will post this there, too. =)
Xxvaceltic Jan 25th 2010 4:58PM
My personal suggestion is simply to try to befriend the officers. Offer to do random heroics with them, run PuG raids on alts with them, etc. In my experience this is the best way to get noticed in a new guild. They get to see that you're the good player that you claim to be and it's that much harder to ignore you.
obc Jan 25th 2010 4:58PM
I dont quite understand why people think its his low experience determining why he is left out: if his only 4 month of experience would really be the factor why he is on the bench, then the guild shouldn't have invited him in the first place, but they have invited him and probably tested.
rhesje Jan 25th 2010 5:00PM
I'm in a faily large and well established guild atm and when I got my warrior up to Raid Tanking level back when ToC came out I had the same problem. All the raids that were going to be hitting the new content we're chock full o' tankage and so I never got a chance to start tanking that content. I really like my guild and there was no way i was going to let something like that frustrate me to the point of /gquit. So I started running as many 5man heroics as I could and getting to know some of the more dedicated players in our guild more. After a while I got the OK from our Raid Officers to start my own Uld 10 raid filled out by some of the folks I had been running 5 mans with.
We have now moved on to ToC10 and will be heading to ICC soon and I am now a full fledged Raid leader for my guild running 2 different raids. I may not have gotten to jump right into the new end-game content but I still enjoyed learning to tank the Uld bosses and now the ToC 10 ones as well as how to run a raid. If you really like your guild and there are really 40 folks showing up for a 25 man, why not talk to your raid leaders about starting up a 10 man that can run using the overflow from your 25 man runs. Maybe someone has already suggested this above (I haven't read all the comments) but I think that would be a great way to prove yourself a bit faster to the power's that be in your guild. Not only will it teach you a ton about raiding in general but it will show your guild leaders that you are ready to take some initiative which is a great trait to have in any raid member.
2:cents
Kaz Jan 25th 2010 5:01PM
Frustrated sounds like he's in the classic "New Member" Dilemma. He has the gear, he has the talent, but he doesn't have the raid experience. The big problem is raid bosses usually require learning and wiping alot before raiders can down them. If you work hard and get a boss to 20% one week, then the next week you expect to down him and move on. It can be frustrating for everyone in the raid if someone new is brought in and has to do their own share of mistake making.
Time is lost and everyone just gets more cranky and burned out on a boss. I've seen that happen when someone has to go after a few attempts on a new boss someone else is brought in and the little newbie mistakes they make cause a few wipes.
Usually this isn't so terrible and raiders just suck it up, but with the end-wing bosses in the Upperspire having a limited number of attempts, officers may feel that taking anyone other than the most experienced raiders will cost them the kill for the week until they can get enough ICC gear floating around the guild.
What Frustrated should do is get a DPS duel spec and some decent DPS gear. Getting a DPS spot may be a little easier on him because: 1) More DPS is needed in raids, and 2) DPS is a less critical class than tanks and healers, so the officers might be more lenient about who they bring to DPS.
Also, it sounds like the system his guild has set up is to bring their regular seasoned raiders to the progression attempts (which would probably be most of ICC atm), then when most stuff is on farm to start swapping in less experienced/geared people. He might want to look at his guild forum to check if there are any hard rules for promotion to the progression raider status. Some guilds just require you to show up for raids for X amount of weeks, others might involve a talk with your class leader, others may demand a special application be posted for review by the entire guild.
In the end though if he really wants to tank raids, and his guild just won't let him it might be time to pack his bags and move to greener pastures. Many guilds are looking for reliable competent tanks.
Cygne Jan 25th 2010 5:05PM
10-15 is unacceptable. I can understand maybe 1 tank, 1 healer and 2-3 dps on standby, however, I feel keeping each standby out of the loop for months on end is also unacceptable. If you are over-recruiting, then you should be using a raid rotation that way people on standby aren't wasting there time in-game.
2cents Jan 25th 2010 5:27PM
Are you playing the game to be a bench warmer or do you want to see content?
I'd suggest you lower your ambitions and join another guild. It's kinda irrelevant if they are covering all the new content if you aren't seeing it. Join another guild and be part of the team that helps them cover all the new content. You sound like you could be a real asset to someone else.
Baek Jan 25th 2010 6:44PM
It seems to me that your guild actually might be very close to recruiting enough players to run two 25 man raids simultaneously. Like Scott said, get yourself into some pugs to get a bit more experience, tanking in a raiding guild can be hard to break into.
I recently joined a new guild about a month or two ago and I pretty much get to go to every raid (granted we don't have that many tanks active in the guild like you do). Here are a few of my suggestions that helped me gain favor with my new guild.
1. When you are going to run your random heroic for your daily, see if your raid leader/guild leader will run with you. No better way to make an impression than to show your stuff in a 5-person setting. Not exactly a stressful raid setting but you know if your RL of GL is a dps they will try to be on your threat lead like glue and see how hard they can push you.
2. When you get sat out or a put in group 6 in case someone drops, don't just sit there doing nothing. If there are enough people that are sitting on the sideline maybe initiate a 10 man (with guild permission) or go on some random heroics in the meantime with the other guildies.
3. Look up alternate strategies, things that some people might be over looking, anything and everything that might give your guild the edge over an encounter. This is the one thing that I highly highly recommend. Even if the guild doesn't use it right away (I suggested an alternate strategy for lady deathwhisper for the guild I'm in) they will appreciate you doing extra research and they will know that even though you are not there, you want the guild to succeed as a whole. This got me to the point that the GL of the guild I'm in asked me to lead a raid on an off night (granted it was ToC but he asked me to lead one nonetheless).
4. Research your class and possibly other tanking classes. When gear discussions come up (especially with 3.3 and Icecrown Radiance) make sure you know what you are talking about and chime in. Be very confident and ready to back up any gear choices or opinions you might have. This will show that you know your class, and moreover, tanking inside and out. If someone building a tank set up has a question, be there to answer and help out. If you become the guy that everyone whispers for advice on gear choice and enchants then you are doing something right.
Breaking your way through the ranks can be tough, but stick with it if you think that there is a chance for you to break into the top ranks. Most people can be easily read as those that will stick with their tanks that they've had for years upon years, or those open to giving a new face a shot if they can do it better. If your guild is going to be open to change, make an effort to do the four things I mentioned above and soon you'll go from the person riding the pine as it were to having your name written in all caps with an exclamation point following when you log on near raid time.
Sleutel Jan 25th 2010 6:55PM
Another suggestion: Once you're clearly past the point where you might be needed to step into that week's raid (checking with your RL first is a VERY good idea here--depending on the guild, using your raid lockout without asking can be grounds for a gkick), PUG the latest content if you possibly can. Any actual experience you can get tanking the encounters, whether in 10 or 25, will make you immeasurably more attractive when the raid is being put together.
Besides giving you more experience on the specific bosses, this will also help make you a better all-around tank (not the least of which because you'll probably be exposed to people who'll make you do more... creative things in order to keep from wiping). Because we have so many tricks in our bag, Warriors are quite possibly THE hardest class to learn to tank with truly to the best of our abilities. So, no offense intended to Frustrated, but I find it hard to believe that after only four months, he's truly learned everything there is to know about being an absolutely top-tier Prot War.