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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: The fourth tank's lament
by Scott Andrews 
Jan 25th 2010 at 2:00PM
It's no secret that tanks are generally in short supply. Blizzard has admitted as much and even designed the Death Knight class specifically to entice more people to taking up the tanking role. They've gone away from fights like the notorious, original implementation of the Four Horsemen encounter that required 8 fully geared tanks and given us more fights like Rotface that only require 2. But for a 25-player raid, you generally need 3.
So what about those fourth tanks? They find themselves riding the pine:
Dear Scott,
I have been playing WoW for just under four months and have worked my butt off to make my Warrior the best tank that I possibly can. I get numerous compliments about my ability and pride myself on being liked by all. I have joined one of the top raiding guilds on my server, but I am finding problems getting selected for raids.
Currently we raid 3 nights a week, and on average, we have 35-40 people showing up EVERY raid night. Obviously, you cannot take 40 people into ICC25 and therein lies the problem. The current state of raids encourages guilds to take 3 tanks at most, and at times, the third tank is running in an offspec, most likely dps. I am one of five tanks in the guild, and the newest of the bunch. All gear is about equal. The other four get selected for raids on a nightly basis based on seniority. I have remained diligent and have shown up for raids every night without fail, only to be told there is no need for me tonight.
I started playing WoWarcraft solely for the end-game raiding scene, and not being able to experience it is extremely frustrating. I've talked to the leadership of the guild and the simple answer I get is "Be patient". It is now going on the 2nd month of sitting out and my patience is running low. At what point should I throw in the towel and look elsewhere for a home? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
--Frustrated
I empathize with your situation, Frustrated. It's never fun to sit out week after week. The comfort that I can offer you, as someone who's been playing this game for five years now, is that eventually the interest in ICC will die down and you won't have anything close to 40 people showing up for raids. I guarantee it. So you will get your chance if you can be patient.
You don't have to be. I'm sure there are guilds out there looking for a solid tank if you want to explore your options. But if you like your guild and you want to stay, you will eventually get your chances.
The problem may simply be that your officers don't think you have enough raid experience. If you've only been playing for four months, there are many areas where you may not be as skilled as other tanks.
The fact is that tanks often make or break a raid, so raid leaders have to choose very carefully. Tanking can be very difficult in endgame raids, and the success of the run often depends on their ability to think on their feet and react instinctively.
Look at the early ICC encounters. In many of these fights, the tanks have a tough job and experience is a key factor in their performance:
- Marrowgar: Tanks have to stay together, pick him up quickly after a Bone Storm, and face him in the right direction so people don't take a Saber Lash to the face.
- Lady Deathwhisper: Tanks have to be on the ball here, picking up all the adds as they come out, knowing which adds to tank and which have to be kited, and managing tank swaps in Phase 2.
- Deathbringer Saurfang: Tanks have very little to do here. Even so, they could easily cause a wipe by accidentally aggo'ing the blood beasts or failing to taunt when Rune of Blood is cast.
- Rotface: The slime-kiting tank has a really tough job here.
- Professor Putricide: Positioning of the boss is critical, and a tank is also usually the one driving the "abomination" vehicle. The order of your tank swaps in Phase 3 can decide whether you're assigning loot or watching your limited-attempt counter tick down.
Frustrated, it could be that your officers think you lack the raiding experience to cope with these situations. Ask them if they feel you can improve your play in any way and see what they say. Even if they don't have a specific suggestion, they'll respect you for asking them and being open-minded about improving.
Or it could be just a matter of seniority as you suggest. I don't personally believe that seniority is a good way to handle filling slots. It leaves new members out in the cold for long periods of time. What if a long-time member has very poor attendance but decides to show up this week? Should they get a slot over a newer person who's been available for every raid night since 3.2?
It's no easy task to fill slots when so many people are eager to run a new raid zone. Your officers don't have a great system, but at least they seem to have a system. Too many officers just take the players they want with no rationale or policy and expect everyone else to deal. That's probably the worst way to handle it.
Some sort of weekly swapping situation can be a better solution for tanks. That gives all your tanks experience with the fights, which is helpful if one of your regular tanks can't make a raid. Or you could even sub your tanks in from fight to fight based on who still needs the tanking drops from each boss. Either method is preferable to letting your fourth tanks stew.
To all the tanks and other players out there yearning for a shot at ICC, I urge you to help us help you get a raid slot. How can you do that? First of all, if you're new to raiding like Frustrated is, practice, practice, practice. Run PUGs if you have to, but get into some raids and get some boss kills under your belt.
Second, always show up prepared to raid whether you think you'll get a slot or not. Have all the consumables and reagents that you'll need, repair your gear, and know how to get onto your guild's voice chat server. If you get invited and you hold up the raid because you don't have what you need, you're only decreasing your chances of getting invited again in the future.
Third, read up on the encounters and watch videos so you're not walking into a boss fight blind. Raid leaders don't want to explain every mechanic on every boss all night long. They have to go over the critical elements, but they don't want to explain why you shouldn't stand in the green circles. If you're getting benched, a big part of it could be that you just don't understand the fights well enough.
If you're confused about something, ask another player in your role for advice before you ask the raid leader. Particularly in a 25-player run, the RL has enough to organize and deal with. He or she doesn't have always time to personally walk you through all aspects of the encounter. Even so, it's better to ask somebody, anybody, than to die to something silly because you didn't know what to do.
Finally, be flexible. Tanks with no offspec are the most difficult to find slots for, especially if you're new to a zone. You're a much greater asset to the raid if you can swap to a DPS or healing role without causing a major drop in performance. Purchase a dual spec. Learn your offspec as well as you've learned tanking. Gear up that set via Triumph emblems and the new ICC dungeons. That goes for DPS hybrids, too!
All of these steps will improve your chances of getting a slot, in one role or another.
If your guild has any, what do you do with your fourth or fifth tanks?
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Jan 25th 2010 7:06PM
Four months of WoW, and he's already 80 and able to effectively tank ICC? Geez. I was 31-ish when WOTLK came out--didn't hit 80 until like April, and it had taken me all summer to get that far. And for myriad reasons I'm still not raiding though I want to. If not for the dungeon finder, in fact, I'd still be in, like, 200 epics.
Apologies if this appears multiple times, connection cut while I was clicking "add comment".
rkaliski Jan 25th 2010 11:46PM
This story is why I despise over-recruiting. I know why officers do it, but I don't have to like it. I can bet of the 5 tanks a couple of them will drop out occasionally and "take a break". Usually they are officers or class leaders and just get put right back into the lineup.
Yes it is nice to have enough people to cherry pick, but honestly it's not fun to sit for a long time. It's also not very fun to be an established player and find out the GM has recruited three other players and you are pretty much competing for a spot. Now, if just attitude and skill were the criteria for being selected that would be fine. Howerver, too often the people who get raid slots are the ones who suck up the most to the boss, or they are long time friends.
Here is what also sucks about the idea of two 25 man raids. Usually there is an A team that is hand picked by the GM to gear up quickly. They progress fast and get full sets of tier with no problem. The second B team has all the new and undergeared players and struggle. The tanks and healers get the reputation for not being able to perform. What you hear from the GM is "oh, once we get this instance or that instance on farm we will rotate players. BULLSHIT. What happens is that the A team gets tired of running said instance and goes to the next one up because they have the gear. B team players struggle and if there is a star among them he will find himself put in the A team if there is an opening. Then the second squad struggles to fill their spots.
Sorry guys, a LOT of you officers are excellent at player your class, and know how to beat any boss and can quote stats and trivia about the game but you downright suck at handling people. Too often the other players are not thought of as people but as a different NPC.
Learn to handle your guild, then learn to kill a boss.
b0ydrgn Jan 25th 2010 8:47PM
If you can't get a slot with your guild, find a sister guild who needs a tank...trust me, there are a few smaller guilds who will let you tank to your hearts content, and would be more than happy to have you tank for them, you might even learn a few more tricks
Lastly, don't feel tied to a guild who does not want you to come play with the big boys...older members...you can find folks who want end content and who are alot more flexible in their raids than some of the bigger guilds
My guild we have great DPS, and healers, tanks, well, they come and go. Most of us are duel spec, can fill many roles, we just pray for a tank who would stay.
Skarn Jan 25th 2010 10:07PM
As a raid leader myself, I have a love/hate relationship with this problem. I loathe leaving raid members out of the raid, but I VASTLY prefer having 30 people show up to the raid than 20. 25 people raiding and 5 sitting out is much better than 20 people sitting out because there was no raid.
To raid consistently, this surplus is a necessity. It's only the most hardcore of hardcore guilds that will get the exact same people showing up for every single raid without fail. Even then I imagine they need some backups. In the grander scheme, raid groups can't run with only 25 people. One or more of those people is going to end up working late, or get sick or take off for a family vacation and then the rest of the crew is stuck with nothing.
The "bench" crew is a good thing. It allows the raid to HAPPEN. Yet, sitting on the bench ALL the time is extremely boring and depressing. To have an effective "bench," you need to rotate people in and out. If certain people ONLY warm the bench, then they are going to get bored and leave for a guild that needs people NOW. My goal is to rotate people in, especially on more farmable content. I'm more likely to bring newer or undergeared members to Marrowgar through Saurfang than to anything beyond, but this gives them a chance to see content, exercise their skills, get some loot, get used to the raid and have some fun.
One or more people that are ALWAYS on the bench until your star raider doesn't show up the one time every few months is very bad planning. You are going to lose that bench raider. You need to give him a chance to raid and be a part of the guild.
Zinn Jan 26th 2010 6:52AM
There has been some mentioning of this, but I still find it strange that more people don't say - hey, go do 10mans?
If they have 40ish signs for a 25man raid, there are 15 people getting the bench every single raidnight. 15 frustrated people.
For the newer bosses in ICC I can understand if they want the very cream of the guild raiders. Those fights are hard. But you'll never learn them if you don't get to do them. If lack of skill is the problem then not letting you raiding will never remedy that.
In my guild we usually do 10mans. Sometimes we just get that many signs (relative to us) that we try to collect for a 25man. Or we do two 10man runs simultaneously. 10man isn't that much easier, in fact the fights can be as hard. What generally makes 25man more difficult is having to coordinate an extra 15 people into doing the right thing, but the strain per person is as big. Therefore, doing 10mans is a great way to gain raiding experience too, and shouldn't be frowned upon. The fight is usually exactly the same, only less people and slightly less good loot.
Baldagrim Jan 26th 2010 7:58AM
This article contains very good advice and all should be heeded. But the only problem as a tank I come to grips with is the last piece. Though getting any raid experience is invaluable, but when I PUG, I always want to tank because no one wants a DPS who asks the question:
"Hey guys, is it cool if I also roll on tanking gear for its my main spec?"
Now 2 Tanks (or 3 for 25-man) have an additional person to roll against. If the Tanks are from the same guild and I win the gear, I see myself not PUGing with them ever again. I understand there are people who will be cool with that, but they are few and far between.
PWard Jan 26th 2010 10:05AM
I understand about showing up for raids and never being picked. Because of this my husband has left the game. Whats' bad is that the people being picked are not high geared as he is. And I guess not being a member of the "in crowd" doesn't help either. Me? I am patiently waiting my turn since I am a DK Tank. And there isn't many tanks in my guild either. All we hear is that they need to have the highest geared run the raid first then they will work people in. Well, that is not being done because they just move on to another "new" raid while everyone is left behind. Sad.
visitingl337n00b Jan 26th 2010 10:38AM
Waiting at this point seems like a mistake. The way ICC is structured it is going to be "new" for a long time. Frostwing halls unlocks this week, which means the lich king, and when your guild downs him they get hard modes with their one-tier-higher item levels that everyone will want. I would expect it to be a couple of months before people start wanting to sit, and when they do it is quite likely the guild will suffer a pre-expansion hiatus or collapse. There are going to be some people who want to keep raiding after they down the Lich King (on heroic difficulty or even on normal if your guild doesn't really do hardmodes), but for many that will basically be it, they'll have won the expansion, and it will be hard to keep interest up.
On the much discussed over-recruiting issue, it is necessary for guilds to have more tanks, more healers and more dps than they need to form a raid, otherwise you end up cancelling raids because of one persons' illness/vacation/wedding anniversary/etc. As a guild leader my feeling is that everyone in the guild needs to get their chance at playing, and I wouldn't recruit people if I didn't think they were good enough to be given raiding time. Personally would tend to think recruiting people and not letting them play is a good way to lose your recruits, but if this guild is managing to get 10-15 extras every night by not letting them raid then maybe they know something I don't.
Winterheart Jan 27th 2010 9:28AM
The way writer's guild seems to work is rather ridiccilous tbh.
We have 30+ signs for weekly 25 man, the picking order goes by signed first to the last. Those who don't get picked get priority for next week.
If I was in a guild that week after week picked the "senior" members first, I would leave the guild. No matter did I liked the people, it's hard to sit in when you don't agree. You'll be left as a replacement player because you're not even given a chance to learn.
Just my 2 cents.
Eldren Jan 26th 2010 12:44PM
Personally if I were in your position I'd look for another guild. If they aren't giving you face time with the bosses you want to see, then you're not getting what you came for, and it's time to go where you are needed. Top guilds often have long-standing tanks, and it's very very hard to take that spot from them. I would look for an up-and-coming guild, with a reluctant tank who would rather have a DPS spot, there are many of them out there.
erines Jan 26th 2010 1:47PM
In a large guild and have only one raid group? O.o There is nothing in the rules from you starting a raid group in your guild? Do not know what to tell you. Maybe a new guild. Maybe a new server. The guild I'm in has four raid groups and picks based on activity, skill and personality. No 'I've been in longer, you have to sit out'.... some of them people are the worst. Anyhow the game is yours you pay for it, play it in another guild or w/e....
catharsis80 Jan 26th 2010 3:02PM
"The problem may simply be that your officers don't think you have enough raid experience."
This is ridiculous. How is he SUPPOSED to get raid experience unless they give it to him? He's part of the guild isn't he? And if they have 35-40 showing up, they should be splitting it into two 20-man groups and pugging the other five people.
Frustrated, I'm in a similar situation as you. I also strive to be the best tank. I'm also the ONLY DK tank in our guild. It's hard to get into PuG raids as a tank when the requirements for gear, experience, etc. are WAY beyond what is required. Your guild SHOULD be taking you at least sometimes. I'm fairly new to my guild, and they are at least taking me on some runs. And when they do, they see I do just fine.
Not splitting their 35-40 people into two groups AND their hanging you out to dry for TWO MONTHS scream that you need to find a new guild. That's just unacceptable and a waste of your time.
catharsis80 Jan 26th 2010 3:08PM
Not to mention that if they are a progression guild, having 20 people in two 25-mans running simultaneously kind of doubles their chances at progression. Why they are not doing that is beyond me, and GM laziness or lack of care of people's time are the only reasons I can think of why that's not happening.