Drama Mamas: When the boot feels like Das Boot
by Lisa Poisso 
Jan 29th 2010 at 9:00AM
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with the Drama Mamas. Lisa Poisso and Robin Torres are real-life mamas and experienced WoW players -- and just as we don't want our precious babies to be the ones kicking and wailing on the floor of checkout lane next to the candy, neither do we want you to become known as That Guy on your server. We're taking your questions at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.
Das Boot is the story of a U-boat crew: the adrenaline of battle and the tedium of the hunt. The film shows what IMDb calls "the claustrophobic world of a WWII German U-boat; boredom, filth and sheer terror."
If the words "boredom, filth and sheer terror" bring to mind your most recent PUG raid, there's something wrong. And if even the act of getting into and then successfully staying in a PUG raid makes you feel more like a U-boat crewman than a PUG raider ... Well, we've got some drama to torpedo.
Dear Drama Mamas: Twice today I, or someone else, was dumped from a raid in its early stages so the raid leader could invite a personal friend. Both times resulted in wasted time with little or no explanation. I gave both leaders a piece of my mind, and both of them acted like it was nothing. Do you think this is acceptable behavior? Am I making too big a deal of this? Thanks, Steve
Drama Mama Lisa: Hi Steve -- I can see where some players might assume that PUG raiders are completely disposable. After all, PUGgers are a dime a dozen these days. Most nights find a PUG raid on every street corner, and guild membership no longer seems mandatory to access anything but bleeding edge content. Even brand new content gets PUGged frequently, vigorously and, more and more often, with skill and success.
Despite the proliferation of PUGs and PUGgers, booting a PUG player from your guild or PUG raid for the sake of replacing them with a latecomer guildie or friend just plain stinks.
- It's rude. Your mother didn't teach you to invite someone to your birthday sleepover and then uninvite them when your best friend's parents announced they weren't going to be out of town on that date after all, did she?
- Yeah, everyone else is doing it. It's still rude.
- Time wasted on raid kicks, invites and reconfiguring the raid wastes the entire raid's time. It quite probably impacts both their focus and the amount of time they have left to continue playing later.
- Booting members (unless it's for an irreparable problem) hamstrings any sort of group cohesion.
- Favoritism and constant reforming positions your raid group as a careless, flung-together proposition rather than a successful and possibly persistent team.
- Kicking someone who's already saved to the instance? That's positively slimy.
"It's a cold world out there. But we as officers and raid leaders don't have to act that way. Our behavior serves as an example to others. We set the tone for our server. All of our decisions add up over the long run and they determine what is acceptable. Ultimately, we make our own etiquette. So my question to you is, what do you want the etiquette to be?"
I couldn't have said it better.
On the other hand, the practice of dropping PUG raiders for friends or guildies is so commonplace that it is almost to be expected when you join up without knowing anyone in the raid. And getting upset about something you can't control and happens a lot is a waste of time and energy. In a perfect world, all raid leaders would listen to Lisa and Scott's advice, and no one would go through this. Or people would just treat others the way they would like to be treated in all things ... Wouldn't that be nice? *wakes up from daydream*
Let's look at things from Rudy Raidleader's perspective for a moment. Rudy has a raid to fill. He's promised his buddy Larry Latenik a spot, but Larry's late. Now, Rudy could be honest and say "LF substitute raider to join us until my friend Larry shows up," but who is going to jump for that offer? So he fills the raid and gets it started, thinking it's better for everyone because the raid gets going more quickly than waiting for Mr. Latenik. When Larry shows up, he drops a person, still thinking that he's keeping his deal and keeping the raid together. Good for everyone except one person is still good, right?
So, yeah. It's not going to stop. Yes, inform Rudy that he is wrong. But try not to get your blood pressure up about it.
Also, try to network among the other PUG raid players a bit. Befriend the ones you think are good people. And when you find raid leaders you like, ask to be put on their list for future raiding consideration. You, too, should have lists -- two of them:
- Bad Raid Leaders Put Rudy and any other raid leaders whom you don't want to raid with again on this list.
- Good Raid Leaders Put all non-bad raid leaders here. Consider them good until proven otherwise.
Good luck, Steve.
Drama Buster of the Week
Drama-busting macros of the week:
- /p Let's keep things simple and Need for everything (main spec, off-spec, and things we can all use or sell). If someone needs it more than whoever wins it, we can always trade later. This makes sure nothing someone will use gets disenchanted.
- /p Needing for off-spec. If you need this for your main spec, let's talk before we leave the instance about a trade.
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Arodiel Jan 29th 2010 9:16AM
/p Let's keep things simple and Need for everything (main spec, off-spec, and things we can all use or sell). If someone needs it more than whoever wins it, we can always trade later. This makes sure nothing someone will use gets disenchanted.
To be honest, I don't see this as keeping it simple at all. People will forget to trade, or perhaps "forget" to trade. This is especially true with all the speedy gogogo runs people seem to want these days - they drop group to relist and there goes your upgrade.
I think the original meanings of need/greed really is sufficient as long as you clarify things with regards to needing for off-spec beforehand (and perhaps pets/mounts/recipes etc if applicable for the instance). Why mess with something that works?
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jan 29th 2010 10:09AM
I would guess as long as you can communicate at the beginning of the run as well as before the first drop "drops" (because people don't always read or remember what someone said right at the start), you MIGHT be okay in needing the item.
It's situational really. What's okay with some people will not be with others.
I'm not a fan of rolling need on an off-spec though. It causes too much trouble for people who legitimately need it as an upgrade over those who don't or those who may pretend to need it just to have something to sell.
Storm Eagle [Resident Capcom Megafan] Jan 29th 2010 10:13AM
I find it's hard to get either of these messages across at ANY point during ANY type of PUG. Either people aren't reading their chat window, or they start pulling even buffs can go out, forget trying to convey a message.
Arodiel Jan 29th 2010 10:45AM
@DOT: I still think the traditional need/greed is less problematic than need all, even in the situation you outlined. Say person A wants it for main, person B for off, the rest don't care. If you need/greed (allowing need for offspec) then at least it's clear who from A-E are *actually* interested. That means fewer need rolls, and more chance for A to win it. And who knows, B might be nice and hand it over even if they do win.
Person C who needs while intending to sell even tho others would use it...well, he's a jerk (although this is a bit fuzzy on high price items like Battered Hilt). He would try this no matter what loot rolling system was agreed upon. I don't really see this as an argument against need/greed.
Kiliani Jan 29th 2010 1:55PM
The problem is that when you have people in the party who could use legitimate upgrades of a lower armor class than their max, they CANNOT need roll on it, and having an enchanter in the party means their chances of picking up a good upgrade that nobody else needs go out the window.
I don't think the "everyone need roll on everything" suggestion necessarily needs to happen for every group in every situation, but I can see using that sort of macro or at least talking to your party up front about who needs what, trying to avoid the "oh crap, everyone hit DE and I can't need roll on this upgrade"...
Unfortunately, way too many groups won't spend 2 minutes to make sure everyone's ready and any questions or concerns are answered up front. I've had groups on my mage where the tank didn't even wait for everyone to buff and me to make a table before running off and pulling the whole first room, expecting the healer to keep up with him.
*sigh*
BubblePriest Jan 29th 2010 2:04PM
I don't think it's necessary to need everything; I mean abyss crystals are pretty useful too.
For some reason, people who want items for off-spec think the system is very complicated. It's not. Look at your other group members. Could any of them legimately need the item for main spec? If not, then announce "Needing for off spec" and roll need. If the answer is yes, however, look at what they rolled. If they rolled greed, then they're not interested. Announce that you are needing for off spec and move on with the run. If they roll need, pass on it.
I do however think it is worthwhile to tell everyone to roll need on the Battered Hilt, the bags, and the frozen orb. Someone will invariably need those anyway, and the heated accusations of "ninja!" get kind of old.
Vladeon Jan 29th 2010 2:05PM
The way I've always done it, in order to make the run more expedient, is if you need the item that drops, need it; if you don't, greed it. If someone ninjas an item, i.e. needs an item that's not an upgrade or they can't use, everyone else in the group gives him/her guff and puts he/she on their ignore list. It's an honor code system that only serves to reinforce an expectation of trust among servers. Otherwise, if you just need everything, you're teaching the younger players that it's ok to need everything and therefore you create a culture of ninjas.
Bruce Jan 29th 2010 3:42PM
The way I do it when there's an item I could use for offspec is just to wait until everyone else has rolled. If someone else has clicked Need, I pass. Otherwise I click Need. Sure, the first person who clicked Need might also be rolling for offspec, but I can live with that.
kv83 Jan 29th 2010 9:22AM
Again that bad need/greed-advice. *sigh*
/shoo
lisapoisso Jan 29th 2010 9:38AM
If you disagree, I recommend making a macro that clarifies what you WOULD like to see happen. Everyone has different ideas of whether it's ok to Need for off-spec or not -- oh, and does "off-spec" mean the one you play least often, or the one you're not playing right now? Communicate, communicate, communicate -- or Need things you feel strongly about getting a chance at, and be a real human and talk about it (trade, if needed) if the item needs to end up with someone else.
OIK2 Jan 29th 2010 1:48PM
/p Main Spec - Need. Off Spec - Need. Broken Hilt - Need if you will use, Greed if you will not, do NOT hit DE. Otherwise Greed/DE as you see fit.
Hyacinthe Jan 29th 2010 1:54PM
Here's why this is bad advice: Unless they've fixed it recently, you can't trade non-conjured items cross-server.
It also doesn't take into account disenchant rolls.
Here's what I always say: "Hey guys! Please need on stuff if it's an upgrade."
If I'm tanking, I add: "Also, feel free to tell me to slow down if I go too fast, but please don't tell me to go faster. Thanks!"
Most people on Retaliation wait to see if the main spec can use an item, as far as I've found, and usually seem to verify that they're going to need. Maybe I'm just in an above average battlegroup?
Bruce Jan 29th 2010 3:40PM
@Hyacinth
You can indeed trade dropped items to cross-server people in addition to conjured. So no problem there.
Snuzzle Jan 29th 2010 5:32PM
Let me clarify what Bruce said. You can trade dropped items, as long as they say thus:
"“You may trade this item with players that were eligible to loot this item for the next {time remaining)."
That means BoP blues and purples mostly. Quest items, items such as the staff and key from Uldaman, random greens or BoE blues.... you're outta luck.
Hyacinthe Jan 29th 2010 8:36PM
I've gotten that message for disallowing trade of non-conjured items as recently as this past week on boss blues in regular instances. Maybe it's different in heroic? I'm working on getting a priest to 80 (2.5 levels left!) so that's where my focus has primarily been. There's the additional issue that not everyone actually can need on everything. Not only that, but I tried to need on a pair of green cloth boots on the aforementioned priest and though the button wasn't greyed out, it also didn't work. I'm not sure if that's a bug, because I'm pretty sure I've needed on greens in the past.
Anyway, it just seems like really BAD advice to say, "Just need on everything" when you could be saying, "Need if it's an upgrade for ya" and make it a practice to not freak out if somebody gets loot you want. It's not like you won't be seeing the inside of that dungeon 50 billion more times.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jan 29th 2010 9:23AM
It really just depends WHEN the person is dropped. If you're dropped during the planning (While I agree it is still wasted time and generally not a nice thing to do) at least the pug is not saved to the instance nor did they waste time clearing trash mobs meaning you can still go somewhere else.
What's rude and inconsiderate is getting that pug saved to an instance/raid etc and then just booting him because your friend (for whatever reason, who was still late) got on. If that pug is doing a good job and there's no real reason to drop him otherwise, you do NOT boot them out. They showed they were willing and ready to go and it's an increasingly selfish gesture to kick them out so that they can't do any more runs for that week.
Also to note, if it's not a planned guild run or something that people knew about and if it's one of those pug all runs where you don't really put any thought into it, it's a very inconsiderate and rude thing to do by just dropping the pug out as if they were trash. Unless the pug itself is a jerk and is useless, I can't see a reason justifying kicking them out.
The question most people don't tend to ask themselves is this, "Would I like it if it happened to me?" I'm sure most people who are honest (and aren't jerks )with themselves wouldn't.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jan 29th 2010 9:25AM
I meant also clearing bosses. >_<
el ranchero Jan 29th 2010 9:40AM
Agree with kv83. "need on everything" is bad advice. I would recommend that you rethink that one.
Race Bannon Jan 29th 2010 9:46AM
I'm a GM of a moderately successful raiding guild. I move people in and out all the time during raids. But these people are all normally raiders. Very rarely we will include social members, but thats usually on a fun run or alt run. We will also occasionally pug a few folks on alt runs. Anyone we pug isn't going to get dropped if someone in guild shows up late.
I did experience the boot on a VoA raid just this week, on one of my alts. the raid took about 30 minutes to fill up, and just as its ready to go, and I zone in I get the boot. I whisper the RL to see whats up, and he says "sorry man, someone is buying the DK drops, you'd do the same in my position" So while I didn't get saved it did waste half an hour of my time.
Jim Jan 29th 2010 9:51AM
Why do you all persist in what seems like bad advice about needing everything, it causes more drama, with folks, people standing in instances, demanding things to be traded, and not moving until they get items. I continue to think this is bad advice, as it causes more drama from what I have seen than reduces. How about, something cleared, need on what you need, if its not your highest armor wait for others before needing, and do not take it from them, or something.
Do you have any data to back up that this reduces drama?