Drama Mamas: At what price perfection?
by Lisa Poisso 
Feb 12th 2010 at 1:00PM
At what point does the perfectly optimized spec, spell rotation or gear set (for the sake of the guild) take precedence over a spec, spells or gear you simply prefer (for the sake of enjoyment)? Be off with your trollish, black-and-white responses! The Drama Mamas favor neither the airy-fairy, let's-all-hold-hands-and-sing-Kumbaya crowd nor the hard-nosed, theorycrafting progression rockets. You can hypothesize about what people should do 'til the Beast Mastery pets come home -- but unless you're talking about specific people in specific guilds with specific goals, you're just another victim of the Pack mentality. We'll explain why and show you how to find the line between optimizing for performance and optimizing for fun.
Dear Drama Mamas: Our raid is working on ICC-25. We've done a few hard modes in TOC, back before ICC came out, so we aren't completely terrible. We've cleared everything except for Putricide, the Blood Queen, and the Frostwing Halls. However, my guild leader is noticing more and more that our DPS is falling behind and that a few players are making choices about their characters that are ... well, "not optimal." These include a fire mage who isn't too interested in respeccing Arcane, a shadow priest who's still falling behind even after the buffs, and a holy priest who plays well but makes some odd talent choices.
We keep hitting DPS walls on Putricide and of course the Blood Queen, which is definitely a DPS race. We value the players as much as downed content; however, it would be nice if we didn't have to wait until we overgeared the fight to be able to clear it. What would be the best way to encourage players to retool their specs, gear and playstyles, in the most fair and personable way possible? Thanks, Theorycrafter
Drama Mama Lisa: I'm hoping with everything I have, Theorycrafter, that you are a guild officer -- because the mission your leaders sets for your guild makes this a simple, straightforward matter. With a strong identity, goals and sense of direction, your guild will weather this potentially touchy situation with grace.
Define yourself as a guild. For you and your guild, Theorycrafter, a friendly atmosphere and smooth progression are obviously both important. Let's be even more specific. Where exactly does the line fall? The most progression-minded guilds will cut unskilled players and recruit only those who can push the team forward. Moderately progressive guilds may break content with an A team and bring in weaker players later. More relaxed guilds may feel that experiencing the game as a group takes precedence over progression. There's no right or wrong way to handle this balance, but it is important that you all know explicitly where the guild stands. It's this philosophy that determines how to handle individual performance issues.
If you're somewhere in the middle, you can still use the tools and tactics above, albeit with a softer touch. You'll also want to consider your guild's overall size. More members could give you the flexibility to push ahead with a strong team, weave in weaker members in smaller numbers, or even implement an entirely new raid slotting system. You may have to help guild members adjust to occasionally riding the pine.
If preserving your team and its friendships rules supreme, prepare for more careful social maneuvering. The measures listed above can still be a positive here, but use extreme sensitivity running "failure" mods. We've talked in the past about ways of effecting positive change in so-called friendly scrubs and terribads. Some form of "the L2P talk" is inevitable. Take a super-sized dose of patience, stay true to your goals and call us in the morning!
Educate Find guides for each troubled class that give breakdowns for what spec is best for raid DPS, why and how. Also find discussions for what spells, skills, attacks, etc., to use for each boss. A good source for these is our class columns here at WoW.com, but your class officers probably have their favorites. Then provide easy access to the problem players. Yes, spoon feed them with offline reading. Of course, they should be researching their classes themselves, but they're not. Shaming them or being testy about it won't help here, so providing the info in a way convenient to them will get you closer to your goal and have everyone still remain friendly.
Motivate Though you haven't stated that you have a hunter having a problem, Brian's column about specs and raids is really relevant here and can help convince the low-DPS people why they should be willing to make changes for the team. Their choices for fun impact the people they say are friends. Playing however you like is fine when you aren't raiding, because you really aren't affecting anyone but yourself. But if you are part of a team, it's just not nice to expect your teammates to carry you. In random PUGs, I'm all for just "doing enough" because those groups are designed for gearing up and getting better -- and honestly, doing too much DPS in a PUG can be hazardous. Guild raids are a different animal, however, and you really need to try to do your best to not only get past the content but to be considerate of your guildies. Perhaps explaining things to them on these terms will help to motivate them to be there for their teammates.
Fund (What? I couldn't come up with a word that ended in -ate. Fundicate? Goldifate?) Pay for the problem players to dual spec. Sure it's a lot of gold. Yes, your other players probably funded respeccing themselves. Again, it's not so much about fairness here. It's best for the team to get these players DPSing higher so you all can reach your goals. So do some fundraising and gift them the ability to have their fave spec and a raiding spec.
What if they refuse? Well, then perhaps it is time to start recruiting new friends who are willing to play their "bad" specs on their own time; reserve the raid spots for them. Good luck!
Drama buster of the week
They call it "grouping" because you actually ought to work as a group. If you're playing like a soloist, forcing everyone else in the group to adapt to what you are doing, you've missed the point. The mark of an excellent player is the ability to make a weak group workable and a mediocre group sing.
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Lissanna Feb 12th 2010 1:09PM
Great advice! I think that ICC has the potential to break up a lot of groups that could skate by before with lackluster players - but now, being friendly means that you end up being disadvantaged with harder fights. Finding the right balance & perspective is going to be hard for a lot of guilds.
Colin Feb 12th 2010 1:12PM
Huh. I was expecting a let's-all-be-friends-it's-just-a-game-let-them-spec-how-they-want discussion in this post. But the Mamas gave really, really good advice. Thanks for understanding that raiding is a team effort, and everyone's enjoyment (or lack of) can depend on a single player. As an officer, I'm kind of keen to try a few of these suggestions to jump start our ICC 10 man group.
Completely revitalized my interest in this column. Awesome job.
Chet Feb 12th 2010 1:13PM
The word you're looking for, I think, is "Compensate."
Robin Torres Feb 12th 2010 1:23PM
Ohhh good one.
Damarlen Feb 12th 2010 3:49PM
I am a pally, and I levelled as ret. Then I went ret/tank. Then I went ret/heals. Then I went tank/heals. Then I went tank/ret. (I LOVE Ret for soloing and rally enjoy tanking, I had gone heals for better raid utility but went back because I really missed having a Ret Spec). And then I was tanking in Naxx with my guild. (A small guild who definately values friendship over progression). I still had a full set of 200/213 holy gear in my bank. We went in specifically to take out Instructor Raz for the weekly raid quest. Our guild had one main healer, she was a Disc priest dual-specced shadow. We had no luck finding another healer in LFRaid or in trade chat, so we decided to try it with the disc preist only. None of us were geared past Emblem of Triumph gear. We made it through the trash up to Raz fine, but on Raz we did not have enough healing. So I whistled up Jeeves and grabbed my Holy gear and tried to heal the Students Off-Specced while the Disc Priest tried to heal the raid. No dice, we wiped about 3 times, so the guild leader hearthed to Dalaran. Still no luck looking for a Raid Healer. So the Disc Priest and I both went to Ironforge and re-specced our Off-spec. As a Holy Pally I had been gemmed and chanted for Flash of Light heals the last time I had played Holy, and some of my gear was picked up while I was a Tank/Ret. So after Re-speccing Holy, I went to the AH to get all new gems and chants for my gear to go for Holy Light. The whole process cost me 1k, but I figured what the heck, it was my guild and my raid and my frost emblems too, and having a Holy Pally is very handy in a raid on occassion ;-)
When I got a lock-summon back to Naxx, everyone was still waiting on us (took nearly a half hour). There was no complaining, no impatience, nothing. I was actually quite impressed with that, especially given that one toon was a PuG noone in the guild had met and 2 others were people NOT in our guild, but they frequently run with us. I was asked in Raid Chat how much the hole process had cost me, and I told them, and laughed about it. In less than a minute I had two guildies and one of the non-guildies who regularly runs with us EACH give me 200g. The Disc Priest is married to the GM, and he paid for part of her re-spec costs as well.
That compensation meant a lot to me. It really made me feel like I fully belonged in the guild. The two guildies who gave me money tend to come online a couple of hours before I do, so when I log on they are already in an instance, and when I am done my dailies and AH and ready for an instance they are about to log off. And they are major players in the guild, so when they are running, the others online are usually running with them. So I had felt sort of isolated because I didn't end up in many guild 5-mans, mainly due to timing zone differences. But when they handed me money like that it was a powerful message that to them, I was part of the guild, and my contribution to the guild and to that raid (and any future raids) was valued by them. And I suspect that the priest got a similar feeling when she was paid back as well.
Like I said further up, I didn't ask for the money. I was fully prepared to carry the cost myself, I wanted to contribute to the guild. But having the donation given to me (actually, forced upon me....I turned down the first trade and was given crap for it and informed that I was to take the money, and that was that) made a huge difference in how I felt as a guild member. Suddenly I mattered, I was worthwhile. So I totally agree that if you decide to compensate anyone in your guild who changes spec or re-specs or dual-specs or changes their gearing, they will feel the same way. Especially if they are a little bit bummed at being given crap about their spec to begin with.
Sleutel Feb 12th 2010 4:27PM
Or, you could accomodATE, facilitATE, or rebATE.
Alternatively, you could bribe them with chocolATE.
Kershalock Feb 12th 2010 4:28PM
Or possibly 'Bifurcate'? (more in jest than not, I hasten to add!)
Robin Torres Feb 12th 2010 9:43PM
mmmm chocolate
galestrom Feb 12th 2010 1:14PM
Excellent article. I think the thing I'd like to see is more folks remembering is that this is a game. If you aren't having fun with it, you're probably doing it wrong.
And Please; appreciate that everyone doesn't define that 'fun' the same way you do. The WoW experience promotes diversity in myriad ways. Play nice, relax, and enjoy yourselves. :)
Clevins Feb 12th 2010 2:07PM
Yes, but.... in a raid you're part of a team, so a purely individual definition of fun ends up being selfish. Look at it this way - say you were on an after work soccer team and you thought it would be fun to learn to handle the ball with your left foot (though you're right handed/footed). YOU might find that fun, but it will hurt the team so even though 'it's just a game' you shouldn't do it. Raiding is similar - for fun, yes, but you're part of a team and should act like that.
Mamas - I kind of disagree with the Educate point above. This is the 10th tier of raiding and the 4th tier in Wrath. No one should really need spec or gearing advice by this point aside from some of the really fine points of a spec. By all means, share information especially about things that have changed in 3.3, but no player in a raid that's mid-way though ICC should really need basic education on how to play.
To the letter writer - Some specs have more than one valid choice. You mention a Holy Priest having interesting choices... but Holy is a tree with a lot of slop. You can pick up the Renew talents if that's your style... or forgo them. You can grab Body and Soul if it makes tactical sense for a given fight or use those points elsewhere. Some of that is choice, some is the role they're playing.
(cutaia) Feb 12th 2010 3:12PM
"Mamas - I kind of disagree with the Educate point above. This is the 10th tier of raiding and the 4th tier in Wrath. No one should really need spec or gearing advice by this point aside from some of the really fine points of a spec. By all means, share information especially about things that have changed in 3.3, but no player in a raid that's mid-way though ICC should really need basic education on how to play."
It's silly to assume that everyone has been playing throughout all these tiers of raiding.
The way the game is designed these days, you can quickly gear up your first 80 to be ready for ToC and ICC without ever setting foot in a raid. Personally, I tanked the first wing of ICC before ever entering Onyxia's Lair, Trial of the Crusader or even Ulduar (Hell, I still haven't seen a single fight in Ulduar).
While it would be nice if folks could progress through older raids like *you* did in order to properly learn the game, that's just not feasable. When was the last time you saw a Naxx or Ulduar pug that didn't expect people to know the fights for hard-mode attempts?
So, if you're a new player who's interested in raiding, you end up being stuck with the most current tiers because, well...that's all everyone else is still doing. This means that yes...some people progressing through ICC most certainly still need some gear/spec/etc. advice.
JKWood Feb 12th 2010 9:08PM
You'd be really, really surprised, cutala. I spend hours of my life educating people on the finer points of paladining - people who, in some cases, have raided as far back as Vanilla. What you're forgetting, is that something as simple as a minor patch can have a major effect on how you gear, spec, or play (the Illumination nerfs for Holy paladins come to mind, as well as the change that let Beacon transfer overheal.) You *have* to continually educate yourself on your class, and sometimes it's not as easy as heading to maintankadin. While raiders are breaking through content, we theorycrafters are busy doing the math (because after all, this is one big math game) that helps you maximize your dps/hps/threat/efficiency/survivability.
If this were a single-player, single-release game, you'd certainly have very valid points (and you still do, in many regards.) However, things get changed and balanced and tweaked and nerfed and adjusted and increased and retooled constantly. Paladins lost 4% of their stamina the other day while servers were up, simply because they were going to be scaling too well with gear. Some were in the middle of tanking and literally watched their hp drop, with absolutely no warning. I'm not arguing whether that was wrong or right, but it was a change, and one that we had to dig into in order to understand. Now, imagine if they changed a spell coefficient for a warlock in the same way - not something you'd notice, until the dps meters consistently showed an increase or decrease.
(cutaia) Feb 12th 2010 11:50PM
JK,
What you've written really doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I've said. It's so far off my point that I don't even really know how to respond.
I'm not saying this to be a jerk. It's the honest to God truth.
(cutaia) Feb 12th 2010 1:20PM
I had a baby two weeks ago, and since that makes some of the more time-intensive parts of the game a little harder to do, I finally gave in and created an army of alts. As a fun experiment, I decided to purposely choose the least played specs for each class (according to that nifty chart I saw recently on wow.com). That means I now have a subtlety rogue, a beast-mastery hunter, a fire mage, an enchancement shammy, etc.
I'm aware that I likely won't get any of these alts running with guilds that are super serious about their raiding. Fortunately, I run my own guild, and I'm all for people playing the class they enjoy the most...not the one that simply does the "best" DPS. (A hunter once asked me if he should spec MM or Survival for better DPS. I told him to just pick the one he likes playing the most.)
It's always important to remember that this is a game, first and foremost, and that people should play the way they want to play.
Obviously, some people *want* to play the min-maxing game, and I think that's great for them. If that's what your guild is about, then you should be playing with people of similar mindset. People who want to be in that type of guild need to be willing to listen to their guildies about their choices or they need to get the hell out.
Shizukera Feb 12th 2010 1:48PM
"Obviously, some people *want* to play the min-maxing game, and I think that's great for them. If that's what your guild is about, then you should be playing with people of similar mindset. People who want to be in that type of guild need to be willing to listen to their guildies about their choices or they need to get the hell out."
Conversely, if you're a die-hard min-maxer in a guild whose philosophy is to allow players to play their chosen spec even if it's sub-optimal, and they progress slower than you'd like because of how they choose to play - hardcore guilds are a better fit for you, and you'll be happier with like-minded players, and your guildies will be happier without you breathing down their necks. It really, really goes both ways.
Regardless of playstyle and spec choices, it all comes down to playing with people who share your mindset. I think people focus too much on "lol your spec sucks!" when really they should be asking, "Would this player fit better in a different guild? Would *I* fit better in a different guild?"
I really don't think I'm phrasing my thoughts well, but basically, I think people are too quick to belittle other people's specs when they should really be examining their attitudes, their intentions, and what they really want from the game.
Methuus Feb 14th 2010 3:33PM
Cutaia, what your touching on, and was mentioned in the article, is that it is crucially important for guilds to be very clear about what their purpose it. The guild leadership needs to clearly articulate that purpose and everyone in the guild needs to buy in to that purpose.
Now, if you're in a guild that is defined as an endgame progression raiding guild, then no, it is not acceptable to play a significantly sub-standard spec and expect to get raid slots. However, if the guild is defined as a casual raiding guild that isn't focusing on progress, as yours is, then "play what you enjoy" is a perfectly valid option.
The problem that arises, of course, is in guilds where the guild leadership isn't clear about what the purpose of the guild is and/or the guild membership has not bought into the purpose of the guild.
Athinah Feb 12th 2010 5:21PM
I've never heard it phrased better Shizukera! I give you a cookie!
Shizukera Feb 12th 2010 5:32PM
@Athinah
:O! Cookie! Yay!
Is it chocolate chip?
Arizor Feb 12th 2010 1:21PM
Donate?
Maybe...
Robin Torres Feb 12th 2010 1:24PM
Another good one!