Officers' Quarters: Super PUG showdown
by Scott Andrews 
Feb 15th 2010 at 11:00AM
These days, even smaller guilds want to -- and can! -- run 25-player raids through guild alliances and PUGs. ToC was easily puggable, particularly since it was a short, simple run that could be completed in about 90 minutes or less for most groups.
ICC is proving to be more difficult. And, of course, it's far longer and more intricate than ToC. Even so, the early bosses can all be mastered by a competent PUG. This week's e-mail deals with an extremely successful and long-standing PUG whose leader suddenly wants to change the way it works.
Hi Scott,
Most of our success can be attributed to our main tank and raid leader. He's extremely patient and very effective at getting the group organized and rolling. He's the one who collected the names of the best players he pugged with and got us all together. We all have a lot of respect and gratitude for him and for the opportunities that he's given the group as a whole.
He's also the leader of the biggest guild in the raid at about half the members. Lately he has been making noise about wanting all of the raiders to join his guild. The reasons why aren't really clear to us, but for some reason he feels it's important. Cataclysm maybe? He's always tried to recruit us, but lately he's started getting... aggressive.
He's declared that for our next raid later this week, members of his guild will get priority for spots. So if we have 30 people show up, his guild is immune from sitting, and us non-guildies have to roll for the remaining spots. If we join his guild, we don't have to roll.
The non-guildies are pretty up in arms about this. Some of us have been in the raid for a year or more while most of the people in his guild have been recent recruits. On top of that, most of us that aren't in his guild are among the top players in the raid. He would effectively be sitting the best players in favor of his own guild.
People in my guild are affected by this pretty harshly. Our guild is the oldest on the server, founded during launch week 5 years ago with most of the members having never left for the entire duration. We're a friends and family guild, so leaving would be effectively abandoning real-life friends.
Any thoughts or advice?
/salute
Of all the e-mails I've gotten over the three years I've been writing this column, the most common question I am asked is this: Should I stay in a social guild with my friends or join a raiding guild to see the content? It's a dilemma that a large portion of WoW's players eventually face.
There's no right answer to this issue. I never really know what to tell people. It all comes down to a person's priorities, and either choice presents a significant downside. If they leave, they may face the guilt of leaving friends behind. If they stay, they may face the frustration of missing out on content and the fun of raiding.
You, my anonymous reader, have been very lucky. Not many people get to stay in a casual guild with their friends while doing some serious -- and successful -- raiding with a different group! You've been able to have your cake and eat it, too, as they say.
Since you've been part of this PUG for a long time, I can understand how disconcerting it must be for the leader to change the rules on you like this. However, try to look at the issue from his perspective.
He has put in the time and effort to organize this run, and he leads it every week. It's a heck of a lot harder to coordinate a raid across multiple guilds. It sounds to me like he's trying to simplify things for himself by consolidating the players into a single guild. I can certainly understand that.
At the same time, it sounds like he wants a greater commitment from people if he's going to go through all the trouble of leading this group. People who have joined his guild have made that commitment, and he needs a way to reward them for that. Priority for slots is the reward he's chosen.
Again, I can't blame him for that choice. He sounds like a highly effective leader and he wants to use that effectiveness to benefit his own guild first and foremost.
Of course, we all know that guild membership is fleeting. Those guild members are just as likely as anyone in your PUG to bail on the raid or to vanish completely. However, from a guild leader's point of view, how can he justify denying his own members slots in favor of people in other guilds?
It doesn't matter to him that some of you in the other guilds might be better players. By bringing his own people, he can help them to improve their gameplay and their gear. He's making an investment in his own members. It just so happens to be at your expense. Perhaps it's time for you to make the choice that so many other players have already had to make.
Or, you could continue along with this situation and see how things go. You may not always get a slot now, it's true. But you may get to go some of the time. Isn't that better than never going again, especially since you can stay in a guild that's important to you? This way, you can have your cake all the time, and you can eat it some of the time. That's better than staring at a cake you can never taste!
Alternatively, if you think that so many talented players will be left behind, why not organize them into a separate group? With some effort on your part, you could potentially lead a "Super PUG" of your own!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Pessi Feb 15th 2010 5:32PM
Meh, just talk to him, set up a superpug channel that you can organise runs in. All join it, and bingo, you've got a mini guildchat to faff about in.
If its that important to have a guild tag for you to raid with them, he obviously doesn't understand the sentimentality of your long founded guild.
Unless he just wants to see his guild climb the ranks on guild ox!
Yermahm Feb 15th 2010 11:17AM
This is a great post.. I guess I should send my dilemma in now..
Hiwa Feb 15th 2010 11:17AM
I'm looking at it from the RL's perspective. Chances are very good that (as in every raiding guild I've been in) come raid time people who are sitting out start making complaining noises about why they haven't been chosen for that night's raid. He may be worried that new members will start leaving if they don't get raid spots. He's in a tough situation too, trying to satisfy his first commitment (the guild) and his second commitment (the pug raiders), which may seem more tenuous to him.
My advice would be to stick with your original guild. Abandoning them for content, especially after so many years, would be a true slap in the face to your friends. Since you are experienced raiders it won't be a problem finding other pugs, and you may even find one that you are equally happy with.
Lornicide Feb 15th 2010 11:28AM
/agree
As a RL and GM, he has to put his guild first. And it appears that he's handling it in a mature fashion, so props to him for that.
bldavis59 Feb 15th 2010 12:39PM
I agree, stick with your guild and form your own super pug.
I have been with my guild since about my 3rd week of playing, and they are among my closest friends! Ive only been playing for just over a year, so i can just imagine how close your guild is.
We are a social guild, that has trouble downing bosses in Naxx (mostly hlr confidence on our GM's part) but i have seen all of ToC and ICC up to Suarfang, in just pugs.
I would suggest contacting all the pug raiders in your "Super Pug" and seeing if they want to start up the group again.
Nemu Feb 15th 2010 2:07PM
I agree as well.
I've been in two alliances like this in my nearly-5-years of playing (I left the server of my first alliance) and while they DO work for a time, something like this always happens. If the OP is "hurt" by this sudden change and loyalty issue, s/he'd basically be as "disloyal" as the RL is/was for coming up with this new raid requirement/rules setting.
If it's true that s/he and his/her friends are among the tops in the alliance raid, they won't have any problems finding another group of mates to raid with, or start their own. The old RL might also find that his "new" way of raiding isn't working out as he'd hoped.
I say stick with yer guild, OP. Form a new alliance, set up a new vent and chat channel so the guilds/individuals involved have a couple of "public" ways of interacting and set out anew. My current guild's alliance is set up that way, and we have a blast--never have problems filling out raids or even groups to run random heroics or quest buddies.
Sylvenna Feb 16th 2010 6:09AM
I find this a bit upsetting. If he has a core group set and is successful with that core group, why would you want to stir up trouble? Yes, I understand the importance of guild runs, but as it has been clearly stated in the letter, this run was formed with players from other guilds first as a pug run. To put priority over these core players that have shown their commitment week after week through the progression of each boss for those that are in his guild and have not been there for the real work of each boss fight is a real slap in the face for the original players. In all honesty, if he doesn't bring in a majority of the group, try to see if anyone else in the group has learned the strategies and is a capable leader to replace him. Seeing how easily he feels he can replace the original core group with his guildies that may be not as geared and definately not as experienced, his position is also just as replaceable.
Castor27 Feb 15th 2010 11:17AM
On the flip side of the situation, my guess is he has some guild members asking why he leads a raid every week and allows non guild members in over guildies. as a leader he can't afford to take this type of flak without risking losing contrrol of his guild and having a mass exodus.
de_jabberwock Feb 15th 2010 11:19AM
Totally offtopic: Amazing picture, is there a bigger version available somewhere?
Alanid Feb 15th 2010 1:47PM
Just had a long search through my deviantart faves looking for this.
http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/art/TPop-Blizz-Warcraft-Promo-83215576
Check the rest of the stuff they do as well, pretty awesome ;)
Cyanea Feb 15th 2010 11:18AM
I left a social guild to join a raiding guild for a while, leaving behind a couple of my friends who didn't have the time/inclination to raid progressively. We solved the social problem by creating a chat channel. As long as one of us was on it, then the channel existed and we carried on our conversations in there like we had never separated.
AudreyR Feb 15th 2010 11:32AM
This. In my experience, a lot of the older social guilds stick together because they really care about their guild members. That being said, a lot of these guilds rarely hold it against members who feel they need to move on to experience different parts of the game. If you truly are RL friends with this guild and decide to move on, I'm sure you'll find a way to not sever all ties with them.
That being said, there is merit to starting your own pug from the left over members. Of course, perhaps a talk with the RL is warranted. You've said yourself that he is the major contributing factor to the pug's success. If you and the pug members who do not want to join his guild feel it's time to strike out on your own, the old RL at least deserves the courtesy of an explanation. Chances are, he might be a little put out at first, but he'll eventually get over it.
Keep in contact with him, since there are no hard feelings on either side warranted in this situation. Who knows, if you keep on good terms with him and his guild, some of his guild members who are unable to raid with the guild may turn into talented pug members.
Hëx Feb 15th 2010 12:25PM
I recommend Guild2Guild, I use it both for communication between our lvl 70 to 80 mains guild and our 69 and below alts/leveling guild. I have also used it to chat between our guild and others we have alliances with.
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/guild2guild.aspx
Additionally, I have been working on a cross guild "Super PUG" on Anetheron-US, unfortunately my website crapped out but once I rebuild it, it will use EQDKP as a web backend and Shroud for loot distribution. www.hex.ms
Elyxaar Feb 15th 2010 11:23AM
"Alternatively, if you think that so many talented players will be left behind, why not organize them into a separate group? With some effort on your part, you could potentially lead a "Super PUG" of your own!"
^ this. Provided one of the affected raiders wants the responsibility of course...
Thosaquinas Feb 15th 2010 11:25AM
There is the option of moving your raiding toon to the new guild and leaving alts in the friends and family guild. When you are just playing for fun you are still able to socialize in the F&F guild.
Talyre Feb 15th 2010 12:06PM
This. I moved my raiding toons out of my family/friends guild but kept my leveling alts there. We also created a common chat channel for the two guilds (many of the members of my raiding guild were people we brought into our family/friends guild who left to see content). I still get to see my rl friends but I also have a secure raid spot with my other guild. Definitely worth a try.
Nick S Feb 15th 2010 11:29AM
Back in BC we had a situation very similar to what you described. When two of the guilds involved starting having troubles, the main tank in question began to get pressure to start his own guild.
He did, we cleared a ton of content and became #5 on the server (which in BC was no joke; gear wasn't as easy to grab back then) and then he burned out and the guild imploded. All of this went down over the course of about 2 weeks.
The moral of the story is this: it could be amazing. It could also fail miserably. Make sure that being in that guild is really what you guys want, not just the amazing PuG raids.
jealouspirate Feb 15th 2010 11:31AM
I'm actually involved in one of these "Super PuGs". It generally goes very well, but I foresee a lot of "Super PuGs" running into problems during Cataclysm. With the Guild leveling system rewarding guilds for completing content, there will be more incentive than ever to step back from PuG raids and do things with your guild. Unfortunately, really, for the many people in these multi-guild alliances.
Really good article though, with nice advice. Also, that picture at the beginning is awesome.
Phelps Feb 15th 2010 11:31AM
Cataclysm is a real angle on this. Blizz has been talking about a certain threshold being required for a raid to count as a "guild" raid, and I think it is 75%. That puts 8/10 and 19/25 as the magic numbers. If his guild is putting up about half, then that means they may already be as close as 14-17/25, and if I were running it, I would be worried about making the magic number before cat.
FWIW, our 10 man guild has that set as a goal -- as soon as we can put up 19 signups, we switch it to a 25 man and pug in the rest, but we aren't going to pug it until then, so that it stays clear that it is a guild run.
Dane Bramage Feb 15th 2010 11:32AM
isn't it possible to be in two guilds at once?
i know the short answer to that is "no", but the long answer is "yes". why not move your main to the new guild if that is indeed the toon that you raid with, while leaving all your other toons in the first guild. if you are like me, when not raiding, i'm leveling my alts because doing dailies on my main gets pretty boring after a while. this way, my main is in a raiding guild, while my alts are in a social/leveling guild.
best of both worlds.