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2-15-2010 @ 9:19PM
I will never, EVER understand how Ensidia tried to justify what happened.They knew how the encounter went, for all intents and purposes, having seen it in 10man.They knew the encounter had not been PTR tested.They knew something strange was occuring.None of this stopped them from going for the glory, of course. Fame comes before consience, apparently.my favourite part was one of their many members posting something to the effect of, "would YOU have risked losing the world first?" as if that excuses them.
2-15-2010 @ 11:39PM
Something else that made it funny when they tried to argue against the ban, is what happened on Yogg. Ensidia had caught one of the bugs, and said that they wouldn't kill him in that state. Another guild did, and then Ensidia tattled on them.Then they turn around and try to say that they're blameless. Good show.
2-15-2010 @ 11:44PM
I believe part of their defense was that rogues regularly use Saronite bombs as part of their dps rotation.I feel that the removal of achievements and whatnot was fine, but the ban was a bit excessive.
2-16-2010 @ 1:03AM
I can understand the "dog eat dog" world of competitive gaming, every sort of competitive sport has this serious attitude behind it, so when guilds race to achieve world firsts or even realm firsts (to a lesser extent) it's not surprising the length they'll go to to achieve these.Ensidia's problem wasn't exploiting the bug in the first place, because it's perfectly viable for their rogue to use Saronite Bombs in his standard rotation and that is fine, that's not the point many people argued. The argument against them was that a number of the people in that raid group actually acknowledged that something was wrong with the encounter, that something happened that didn't happen in the 10-man version of the encounter. They chose to ignore this bug (and I find it pretty hard to ignore the rebuilding of a platform that's slowly being destroyed during the fight) instead of stopping and reporting it.Their argument was that it was a race to the finish and they were so close that they would do anything to win, they then assume other woulds (and many would but it's ignorant to think everyone would). Their other arguments were that (and they come off as extremely ignorant in this part) they are one of the reasons bugs in raids are fixed, and that's a load of bullshit. That's ignorance and elitism taken to the max, and I personally won't stand for it.But this isn't about my opinions, just the facts. The facts are rather simple: Regardless of their lack of knowledge of how the glitch was occurring (it is highly possible they didn't know what made it happen) they KNEW something happened and they KNEW it was an exploit. They made the call not to report it, they lost their loot and achievement and got banned for it. They were punished, and then they try to justify their actions on their own blog. Many of which weren't very good for their guilds PR, and could've been dealt much better but what's done is done.In any case, Blizzard COULD have just banned them for being Ensidia. Would it have made Blizzard look good? Probably not. But the point is they could have done it and no amount of whining on anybody's part would have changed Blizzard's right to do that. So why the hell did they even try?
2-16-2010 @ 2:05AM
I think that removing the achievement and loot was certainly fair. But for someone to say that Ensidia didn't report this so that they could try to get away with it is asinine. They were completely aware of the fact that GMs and Devs would be present at the world first kill of an expansion ending boss. Quite honestly, the most constructive thing that they could do for the benefit of themselves, Blizzard, and all of the bandwagon Ensidia-haters is exploit the encounter, find the flaws, and point out all of the ways in which Blizzard failed to provide a quality product.At such point, they deserved to have credit for the kill removed and, after the hotfix, resume their pursuit of the world first legit kill. Blizzard's actions are frankly childish; they are a lumbering infant wielding a banhammer. The essence of their hypocrisy is summed up in the wonderfully done and woefully misunderstood satire that muqq put in his blog.I understand that Blizzard had every legal right to do what they did, and even some small degree of justification to take minor disciplinary actions. However, being legally sound is not the same as being reasonable, or practical, or to some extent morally justified. The extent to which they overreacted is what is truly laughable in this decision, and to exact this punishment on a group dedicated to your product seems infinitely idiotic. Poor form Blizzard, better luck next time Ensidia, and to all of you who post things like "LULZLULZLULZ THEY DESERVD WAI WURS, PERMABAN IMHO", please get better at this game, or stop queuing for dungeons on my server. Please.
2-16-2010 @ 7:33AM
I think Ensidia missed a trick.They spotted something a little strange with the 25man version of the instance, but missed what I presume would be an easy solution. A message to the GMs:"Hey GMs, it's [xxxx] the raid leader of Ensidia's 25man team. We're going for 25man LK and we're not sure if we've spotted a bug, or just a quirk of the 25 man version. What's happening is [description of the saronite bomb issue]. We're going to carry on trying for now -- let us know if it *is* a bug and we'll stop."I'd have thought that would do. They've reported a *possible* problem, they can carry on and if it is a bug, they've done the right thing. If they'd done that and then completed the raid before the GMs got back to them I can't imagine they would have been banned -- just had the achievements removed. They could have then carried on trying. Or maybe a GM would have come right by to say "hey guys, thanks for pointing it out. It *is* a bug, we'll hotfix. Come back tomorrow."
2-16-2010 @ 8:06AM
1. ensidia was first doing it in 25 man, as far as i know, they dont killed Lich King before on 10man.2. is some bug is appearing again and again and you dont know why - does it mean you should stop to play till some new patch comes? And dont forget the competition of many guilds.3. lich king wasnt tested on PTR means also that ensidia havent tried him before.
2-16-2010 @ 8:17AM
@Potvorka:Yes. Yes, if a bug appears, it does mean you stop playing until the patch comes through. Or, in this case, it means you take saronite bombs out of your rotation and keep fighting. A max of 1500 damage per minute is a pittance in a fight like that, especially considering the cooldown you're using to throw one. If two ICC geared mages were to get off a single additional Arcane Blast during the fight, that damage would have been more than made up.And speaking to the argument for ignorance, as more than a few people have mentioned, if the floor only respawns once per minute, coinciding exactly with when a saronite bomb goes off, it'd be kind of hard to blame the respawn on something like "The mage was casting Arcane Blast." "The hunter used Chimera Shot." "The pally used Flash of Light." The cooldowns don't match up.Ensidia wasn't stupid. Just greedy.
2-16-2010 @ 11:12AM
With the Ensidia kill, there is one damning piece of circumstantial evidence. They never released a video of the kill. We all know that there were multiple players recording it so it could be posted on MMOchampion. Obvoiusly there was something in the videos that they didn't want anyone to see.
2-16-2010 @ 1:12PM
I've said this here before - if Blizzard doesn't want a player doing something in game - the game code should prevent that. If it doesn't - it really isn't the players fault period. I think Blizzard should take away items and the like, but banning them in really uncalled for.That said - the one time I ran a dungeon with a server first guild I couldn't believe the amount of "hacks" and tricks they used to get these bosses down, and I doubt they were alone. These bosses are freaking hard for most guilds, and I think they are simply analyzing the encounter and coming up with ingenious ways around their hardships.If anyone reads those wow exploit boards too - the amount of end game raiders on there might surprise some people (and I know they are end game raiders because there's loads of exploits, tricks etc for hard more dungeons - one example for instance is the OS-3D hurricane trick - a lot of guilds did server firsts with that, and never got caught).Blizzard is kinda lazy though - they finally fixed the ZG tiger boss bug in 3.x (which has been there since the dawn of ZG). They also fixed the UD-Strat gate bug recently too - which was there since the dawn of the instance. I've never heard of anyone getting banned for any of this, but I pretty much guarantee most any player who has a tiger knows about it ;) (even if they didn't use it).Also it took a gm 2 days to reply with some canned text about a quest log issue on my priest alt - world first guilds aren't going to wait around for some other guild (who may or may not be using bombs) - I certainly wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't risk waiting for 2 days for a canned text reply on how we should reset the wtf folder either.
2-17-2010 @ 8:57PM
@potvorkia - They've stated publicly on their website that:a) they killed him on 10 man immediately prior to the 25 man attempts b) they knew the platform should not have been reappearingc) they knew that the platform reappearing made the fight significantly easierd) they knew that they should have been killing the adds during that phasee) they discussed it on vent and agreed that if the bug happened again that they would not kill the addsf) they made the conscious choice NOT to open a ticket or report the bug in any way.They also stated that on previous world first kills (in BC content IIRC), they had reported bugs and had them hotfixed immediately so that they could continue the fight without either exploiting it or losing significant time on attempting it. Oh, and they've also stated that they knew that saronite bombs made the floor reappear in ToC. That last bit makes it very difficult to believe that they never considered the possibility that the exact same mechanic might be bugged in the exact same way they had already discovered.For the record, I don't hate them in any way. (Just preempting the cries of "but it's just the haters who think they should have been banned!") I do, however, find facts important when considering issues like this.
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