Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsMore tanking changes for warriors
by Matthew Rossi 
Feb 16th 2010 at 2:00PM
This is interesting to me for two reasons. First, because it's a fairly rapid statement of intent compared to past issues, where months could pass before anyone would address an issue (Thunder Clap only hitting four targets, for example, which was a huge problem for warriors for most of BC) and secondly because it highlights the domino effect that changing class abilities can have and showcases just how difficult class balance really can be. They knew even when they were making the change to Devastate that this might be necessary, but they understandably wanted to roll out any changes in an incremental way.
My expectation is either a threat buff for Revenge (which, frankly, isn't really all that interesting a change), a DPS increase (which isn't likely) or perhaps a small bit of AoE viability like a cleave effect. That last bit would be a good way of adding some AoE bite without replicating the paladin model which we've already been told is a touch over the top.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
WB Feb 16th 2010 3:37PM
The Saber Lash effect is certainly a good idea but it would essentially be a new ability. I'm not saying I wouldn't want it - just that it's unlikely that that drastic of a change would be made with Cataclysm's rebalance imminent.
It'd be much easier (for the devs) to change some base numbers or add a few percentage points as opposed to balancing a whole new ability. In that regard even removing the GCD is probably out of the question unless the GCD aspect of Revenge is 'toggleable.'
Avrus Feb 16th 2010 3:43PM
@Enkylanos:
Yup that might be the fix that would work best. Just take revenge off the GCD.
Sterb Feb 16th 2010 5:30PM
You can have Saber Lash only if Heart Strike hits for more when it doesn't connect with a second target.
Neirin Feb 16th 2010 8:16PM
Off the GCD would be nice, but then Imp. Revenge would probably have to be redone as an off-GCD stun would be way too powerful in PvP.
Josin Feb 16th 2010 3:19PM
I'm hoping for straight up more damage. SO tired of being a drain on my raid, doing 1-2k DPS less than the other tank(s).
Revenge is relatively unused in PvP, so it's a (relatively) safe place to push damage without unbalancing the ever-so-important Arena battles. They have to be careful though... if Revenge does too much damage, they'll have to nerf Shockwave, or something similarly nonsensical.
ptcapo Feb 16th 2010 3:38PM
But remember the PVP nerf wont affect PVE. At all. Seriously believe the Pallys, and Mages, and DKs, and Druids who assure us Warriors that PVP nerfs dont impact PVE.
Now the revenge buff comes.
Now I get to retool my bars and trees (again) - but the PVP nerf is just that.
Throw more shi...darts at the wall and see what sticks Blizz.
Eliezer Feb 16th 2010 3:45PM
I don't really see this as a huge concern. We had two abilities, one was considered higher priority than the other, but now that has changed. It is odd only because the situational one with less uptime (Revenge) is less appealing.
I agree with those that suggest that changes to Revenge perhaps go in a different direction than simply buffing it to be "better" than Devastate again.
While perhaps not "Iconic" of the Class as was pointed out, it was certainly "iconic" for the spec.
If you go in a new direction, some kind of AE buff could be interesting. But instead of just making it Cleave (which then risks making Cleave less valued, no?) I'd rather see something more unique.
Maybe a "smart" hit. If a Mob hits you and you block/dodge/parry and Revenge lights up, hitting Revenge hits the mob that hit you, even if you don't have that mob targeted!
Or maybe a Revenge hit refreshes a bleed, or adds some other debuff, or even speeds up some other cooldown... There are lots of ways to make hitting Attack A look as appealing as hitting Attack B.
Crimpshrine Feb 16th 2010 4:05PM
^ I like that idea a lot:
"Maybe a "smart" hit. If a Mob hits you and you block/dodge/parry and Revenge lights up, hitting Revenge hits the mob that hit you, even if you don't have that mob targeted!"
That seems very much in tune with the point of the Revenge ability: it's a COUNTERattack. The smart-targeting you suggest would be a good way to help us keep beating on multiple mobs in a pack of adds (saving us from hitting Tab as often).
There might be some problems, on the other hand. What if you're concentrating on a boss that you're tanking and one of his sidekicks hits you and you parry? Your Revenge hit then would be one less hit on the boss, which could be catastrophic.
Also, while I used to have to tab-sunder and tab-devastate at lower levels, as soon as I had 2 major glyph sockets I took up glyphs of Devastate and Cleave, and practically don't have to tab except sort of as an afterthought, for good measure... because both Cleave and Devastate are hitting enough different targets that it's usually time for another Thunderclap or Shockwave before I would ever get around to losing aggro on the ones I haven't directly hit.
GrumblyStuff Feb 16th 2010 4:26PM
I hope you're not serious about refreshing a bleed. ...although they could do something interesting, maybe even combo-pointish.
Using revenge gives you a buff. Blocking/dodging/parrying an attack gives the attacker a debuff. Call the two Confidence and Doubt. Confidence increases the damage of your next attack to be increased by whatever %. Doubt could lower defense skill, chance to hit, chance to crit (if we wanted to give it a pvp buff), armor, haste, or just another bit of damage boost by % but only if hit by a revenge. You get a reward for using revenge and you get a reward for using revenge on the attacker that activated the ability.
This would be a bit much for simple rebalancing (25g on teeny-tiny scaling buff, 50g on a overall damage buff a la recent devastate change) given how much testing would have to be done making sure it isn't a debuff that becomes the required one for hard modes and such but just gives warriors some extra dps, some extra threat, and incentive to weave revenge in between SS and Deva.
joshbuddha Feb 16th 2010 4:23PM
If you can't hold threat as a warrior YOU ARE A BAD WARRIOR. If played correctly a warrior has much higher threat than DKs or Druids. Paladins are the only class who can out threat a warrior when played correctly, heroic strike is one of the best abilities in the game, and since warriors run with 1.6ish tank weapons with windfury or whatever other haste buffs (like your mongoose enchant) you should be using it nearly every second, if AoE tanking you should be using cleave.
Are you not using heroic strike? Are you not using shield slam? Is your spec retarded?
If you think a DK in any spec can outtank a warrior, you really just do not know what you are doing at all. DKs have the spikiest threat take the most incoming damage, and are really hurt the most in ICC by chill of the throne since its a threat nerf as well as an avoidance nerf.
Big Shoe Feb 18th 2010 1:30PM
I have traditionally used Heroic Strike as a rage dump. It's expensive and slow, since it queues up on your "next attack", and despite the solid threat, it is simply less efficient than other Prot warrior tools, especially when speed is a factor. Glyph of Revenge negates the rage cost, as I now have a free HS macroed to follow every Revenge. However, this only makes HS less desirable as a standalone attack. Thunderclap, Shockwave, and Demoralizing Shout are all useful, but long cooldowns or "aiming" concerns (such as SW's often ambiguous frontal cone) give them limitations that "fire and forget" abilities like Consecrate, Death and Decay, and Swipe simply don't have. Cleave would be outstanding with a threat boost, a faster swing time, or a reduced rage cost, but it's still a good option for AoE threat... on three mobs that are precisely positioned in front of you.
On single target fights, warrior tanks are superb but they have to work considerably harder to generate as much (if not less) AoE threat than the other tanking classes do, and DPSers have to pick their targets with care as a result. Druids share the pain of a warrior tank who has to manage a see-sawing rage bar, but paladins start every run with a full mana bar, and the DPSers can AoE with impunity almost instantly after a pull. WotLK ushered in the age of the AoE zergfest in heroics and even in many raids, and the general perception is that paladins are the tanks of choice for all current content because of their effortless multi tanking. This play style has led to a ripple effect that makes warrior tanks the "slowpokes" of the bunch in heroics. The reduced mobility of the 3.32 Warbringer makes runs like Halls of Reflection even more challenging for warrior tanks facing multiple ranged mobs. The final insult for warriors is having substantially lower DPS than the other tanking classes. I'll be the first to say that a tank's job is to hold aggro while the DPS burns down the mobs, but raid leaders will always lean toward the tanks that bring added DPS to the table, particularly for progression content where enrage timers are a factor.
With all this in mind, buffing Revenge in almost any way would be fantastic. After the Dev buff, I found even Imp Revenge to be useful only in very low rage situations. If it had a cleaving or swipe effect, it would regain its former status as a choice tanking tool.
Eliezer Feb 16th 2010 4:36PM
The key in my opinion is keep the changes minimal. If the entire concept is re-worked, it will be less likley to be implemented.
So what do we have now? We have an ability that is an On Use Attack (ie we have to activate it) with a variable uptime (its only available after we dodge/block/parry). Thematically it is a counter-attack.
If we aren't changing that basic formula, there are only so many reasonably simple permutations to consider.
Certainly adding either a short-term buff to us or de-buff to the mob we hit with it would be within reason.
anthony_gabriel Feb 16th 2010 6:27PM
Tank warrior below 4K GS should quit the dungeon when the daily Random takes them to POS or any other ICC instance.
They can't even keep agro of boss lol, and on trash even worse.
Even giving them 5 seconds before i start casting Blizzards is not enough for them to hold agro of all mobs.
So warriors. Learn how to keep agro please else Alt + F4
jbodar Feb 16th 2010 6:54PM
Well, he does have a point: tanking Heroics with lower-level gear is damn rough. I switched to my Pally with slightly worse gear and never looked back. It wasn't worth the frustration, even though I like the fast pace of Warrior tanking.
Valt Feb 16th 2010 10:08PM
Mage? Whining about threat?
Its class, live with it or reroll and stop troll.
Fizzlle Feb 16th 2010 6:29PM
Ok I know I'm gonna catch hate mail for this but it has to be said.
First of all I'm not a warrior, I don't have a prot warrior and I don't have a tank of any class at all. That being said I do have 7 level 80s and I can play them all with efficiency. I am in a guild which has a warrior for its MT and he is awesome. I also am RL friends with one of the main OTs in the guild who is also a prot warrior. He constantly complains that warrior tanks are "broken". He complains that paladin tanks are OP and unbalanced because they can heal, he complains that druid tanks are OP because they gain uncritable status via talents and have ridiculous health pools. He has the same gear score as our MT and has virtually the same gear. What's my point? Yes, I will agree that perhaps warriors may have an issue in their current state (an assumption based only on hearsay). The MT of our guild faces the same challenges with the same gear in the same instances and he does just fine. Perhaps it's time for warrior to stop complaining that they are broken and learn to pally through the difficulty. I'm not suggesting that they ignore the issue or fail to bring it up, I'm simply suggesting that warriors learn that ALL classes get gimped at some point (as the article suggests sometimes it is for extended periods of time). With as many 80s as I have I can guarantee you I have been hit by the imbalance stick more than once. If I didn't enjoy playing the character to the point of agonizing over it I rerolled and leveled a new class. If I loved the toon/class I just learned to play through the imbalance.
Fizzlle Feb 16th 2010 6:32PM
play through the difficulty not pally. Funny but not the point. WTB edit button.
rkaliski Feb 17th 2010 4:08AM
Fizzle,
I suggest you try walking in the warriors boots before you stick a pair of them in your mouth.
How can you comment and pass judgment? The warrior class is one of the more difficult classes to play because of the lack of AOE threat buildup. Try this to get an idea of what a warrior tank has to do. Do some heroic runs on your druid boomkin. Now, when a big pack of mobs is pulled, instead of hauling out the good ole AOE, tab target like mad and keep spamming moonfire one to each mob till they are all dead. You have to switch targets with each moonfire.
This is how you keep agro on a big bunch of targets. Keep doing this the entire run. Takes a lot of situational awareness to keep track of all the mobs, not hit the wrong one AND deal with any strays that brain dead dps have pulled.
Fizzlle Feb 17th 2010 5:24PM
@rkaliski
You appear to have missed the entire point of my post. Your response insinuates that I believe tanking to be easy. I have never thought that nor did I say that in my post. What I DID say was that each and every class gets hit with the nerf bat. Sometimes the nerfs are warranted and bring balance and sometimes they come out of left field and f*** everything up. Either way, nerfs are part of the game. In addition, my post highlighted the fact that two warrior tanks of virtually the same build, gearscore and gear set have RADICALLY different abilities to play and I suggested that the search should start not in the blame category but instead focus on [personal] ability. Finally, I HAVE played a boomkin and single target tabbed while casting a single DoT on each mob (I have also done this on my lock) to avoid pulling threat so I know just how annoying it can be. It sucks I agree. If you are going to respond to my post then at least read the post, respond to what I actually wrote, and don't make assumptions about what I have and haven't done. Kthxbai.
Valt Feb 16th 2010 9:36PM
If fury and arms warrior is doing more aoe threat than prot theres something wrong.
Our single target is fine. Very very fine. But our aoe is sh*t.
I mean. Thunderclap can only do so much. Shockwave is 20 seconds cd. Cleave spam gets rage drained.