The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Threatening

Meanwhile, I use arms as my PvP spec and fury as my PvE spec, so in addition to re-speccing every time I intend to do some battlegrounds, I have to put in all new glyphs and even have an entirely different set with different stat weights and gems (for instance, a lot of my armor pen gear has expertise on it that's entirely wasted for my arms spec but needed for my fury spec) -- this all needs to be addressed in any post about gems and glyphing.
But for now, lets deal with a more pressing issue.
Combined with recently announced changes to abilities like Revenge, what we have ongoing right now is a general sense of warriors as a class that requires a great deal more thought than you might expect. Frankly, buffing Devastate basically dropped Revenge off of my keybinds, I only hit it when I am absolutely rage starved and worried about threat. Yes, I'm sure a great many will tell you threat is a non issue in today's game. Those people are wrong. If you're never worried about losing threat, you need to run with better DPS, frankly. Threat is always on my mind, it's half my job as a tank and the big limiting factor for my DPS in most five mans. I can easily rip threat off of even most paladin tanks I run with in my fury spec. Threat is always an issue. You should gear for it as a tank and watch out as a DPS. You have a threat reduction as fury, but no threat dump and no reduction as arms, and as a tank you always have the limitation of rage to make the first five to ten seconds of any pull tricky. One of the reasons I end up chain pulling as much as I do in a heroic is to retain rage and give myself a lead. While DPS and healers often want to stop for mana, stopping to regenerate their resource degenerates mine.
In a raid, one usually can count on more consideration, but it's still not always feasible: Tricks and MD can be on cooldown, waves can spawn, DPS may be tight and have to jump as soon as possible. Tanking the waves of adds on Dreamwalker can be an eye opening experience for just how important threat gearing, gemming and glyphing can actually be. This doesn't mean you should ignore stamina, armor, avoidance stats etc etc, that's not what I'm saying. That would be ridiculous, you'd just tank in DPS gear and hold threat beautifully if that were the case. You'd also die, unless you massively outgear what you're tanking, and you probably can get away with tanking in DPS gear if that's the case. I often tank heroics as fury, I don't even put on a shield or switch stances. If my gear wasn't as good that would be unconscionable and I don't do it with groups I don't know. You do still have threat stats to consider, though. You want strength, you want expertise to at least the soft cap to push dodges off of the table, you want hit at least high enough to allow you to overcome miss chance. (I realize I said 5% in that post, or 163 hit rating. I'd since argue that 8%, 263 rating, is better to aim for.)
Heck, armor value can be a threat stat if you have Armored to the Teeth. Block value is a threat stat, albeit one hampered by recent changes to how Shield Slam is calculated and how block value diminishes. Still, Damage Shield uses block for its calculation, that makes BV a threat stat. Strength is a threat stat for that reason and because it converts to AP, and AP gives us threat from thunder clap and shockwave as well as weapon damage.
The tighter the progression level is the more important a solid balance between threat and survival statistics becomes. On some fights you can afford to go in one direction or another (tanking Lana'thel as soak tank, for instance, I don't even worry about threat stats of any kind, while tanking her as MT I absolutely do but still keep survival in mind as a priority, while on Dreamwalker I pop in threat glyphs and wear several pieces of of DPS gear since catching the adds and holding as many as possible is my priority) but in most cases you need to simultaneously stay alive (corpses are remarkably nonthreatening) and give your DPS as much of a ceiling as you possibly can. I personally want to let that rogue break 15k if he can. If you consider tank threat as a ceiling, consider that each DPSer is limited to staying below this ceiling. The higher it is, the most each DPS player can contribute, and therefore your threat ceiling can be theoretically multiplied by how many DPS players you have to find the rough maximum DPS your raid can do without individual raid members pulling threat and dying. The harder you work, the harder everyone else can work, the faster things die.
There will never be a point where I will feel like I am generating enough threat as a tank. I've been the DPS who had to stop and autoattack because a tank couldn't hold aggro over me, I don't like that feeling. I won't ever be complacent about it and I advise anyone coming into the game as a tank now (whether it be five mans or raids) to understand that the conventional wisdom that threat isn't an issue is overblown. It's plain to anyone who tanked in Burning Crusade that threat certainly is far, far better now. It's not the nightmare it could be then. The power to have good threat generation is in your toolkits and your hands, but you won't get there by ignoring it. A good tank is measured by two standards: how hard or easy is he or she to keep alive, and how much threat does he or she generate?
When I discussed arms I mentioned that one of the things you should do as an arms DPS player is to be active, using your global cooldown, working on a priority list that always kept you active. This is also true for you as a tank. You should be doing things. That's why you have abilities. As a tank you should be constantly surveying the battle, so to speak. Where are the mobs? Where are your fellow players? Is a wave of adds coming, do you have rage, would your time be better spent on single target or AoE? You don't want to spamming cleave or thunder clap on a single target or a boss the way you'd be more likely to use them if you were tanking a wave event like the Tribunal of Ages or Dreamwalker. Is someone off in a corner about to get swarmed? Intervene is made for this situation. Bad warrior tanks are the ones who don't use their abilities in the proper situation. Should you hit shockwave every cooldown? It's probably not necessary, but on an initial pull a thunder clap - shockwave - cleave can do a lot to lock down initial threat and keep mobs focused.
As a tank you should never be satisfied with your threat. Your threat is the ceiling that gives your DPS room to move and grow. While piling on the threat stats past a certain point is counterproductive and useless, you do need to have them. And the more broadly you gather them (not just focusing on hit and expertise for threat, but also using strength and block value and considering armor a threat stat as well) the easier it will be for you. Yes, you should gear for mitigation and avoidance, you should absolutely gear for stamina, but if you do all that and you're under the expertise soft cap which means you can be dodged, and you are low on hit so that taunts are missing and you don't always hit with your attacks, you've become a very easy to heal waste of everyone's time. Get at least 26 expertise. Get as close to 8% hit as you can. Get your strength up, get your armor value up. You can do these things while still getting stamina and dodge and parry, I promise you. Balance your stats for threat, don't just gear to stay alive. Gear to have a reason to stay alive as well.
Filed under: Warrior, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Sqtsquish Feb 19th 2010 2:25PM
as my guild's occasional warrior offtank I find threat to be "less" of an issue then if I was MT, it is not that I can ignore it but with vigilance on the proper target and since I can always get at least as much threat as the pally MT just with a taunt it is considerably less of an issue- I would say for an OT since you will be occasionally less geared then your mt it is even more important for you to gear for survivability since you can always be in a situation where the MT CANT have aggro and you need to be able to survive everything all at once and since you may have been passed over for tank gear in the past with the "extra" stat buffer your MT has that he can burn on threat you can be significantly more squishy. Not only that if you do have to take threat off the hard hitting stuff as the OT in most cases you only need to keep it off for a short time. Now this is certainly not in stone as no tank can make do without threat, but as an OT threat is slightly less important.
KronosIII Feb 19th 2010 4:14PM
As I get more geared it becomes much harder to tank heroics
I just don't get enough rage at all. They hit me like pansey's and I don't get enough rage.
I start wearing some dps plate gear to help me out but its not cutting it. And too be honest I don't think this was the design for warrior AOE tanking.
Actually it seems like we were not meant to AOE tank and it was put in at the last minute.
I am still able to keep threat but just barely with great dps with me. I shouldn't have to wear dps plate and to have 2 prot specs to aoe/single tank at full strength. (And I don't)
Ya we may be the most popular tanks, but thats no reason not to buff us. People will always play warriors. Been a warrior since vanilla and tried every class at 80. Nothing comes close to the feel/effort it takes to be great as a warrior.
Hell I don't even play my 80 frost mage anymore for pvp because of how faceroll it is.
Bottom line blizzard should stop looking at charts and just make things at equal grounding.
Sleutel Feb 19th 2010 7:01PM
@KronosIII:
Put together a Threat set, if you need it. Not counting my DPS set for my Fury offspec, I have at least two pieces of gear for each slot, which I mix 'n' match into a half-dozen different tanking sets (MaxEH, Avoidance, Block, Unhittable, Magic, and Threat). TBQH, though, I very rarely bust out my Threat set, even in 5-mans. Even in my MaxEH set, which focuses on Stam, Stam, and more Stam (43k unbuffed these days), Threat generally isn't a problem. I'm usually pumping out 5-6k TPS without even trying.
Be sure to keep in mind your four best friends for AOE tanking as a Prot War: TC, SW, Cleave, and tab-targeting.
KronosIII Feb 19th 2010 7:30PM
To Sleutel
I think you failed to see my point.
I am able to collect threat. And if I wanted to AOE tank like butter and actually do more dps then most pure dps classes in trash pulls I would do a different tree.
My point is the warrior should not have to count on so many different sets of armor to do the same job other tanks classes can do with their own 1 set of armor. And we should not have to re glyph just to match the aoe ability of other classes. (make cleave hit 3 targets without a glyph please)
Yes that is a no brainier that those are your best friends but a class should not be so gear dependent. This is why warriors were so overpowered or so weak depending on gear. This is why I as one could raceroll everything in vanilla as a warrior with grand marshal gear.
And it is also why it is the worst class with not so top end gear.
Sorry if you faield to see the main point
darian Feb 19th 2010 2:29PM
Threat is important, aye. That said, I think you need some +Brevity gear.
darian Feb 19th 2010 2:53PM
I hold that my point remains valid, even if my jest appears ill-received. Nothing Rossi said was incorrect, but it could have been said in fewer words without loss of accuracy.
Aureliusz Feb 19th 2010 5:44PM
For what it's worth, I agree with this poor, downrated commenter.
Elmouth Feb 20th 2010 11:43AM
Article lenght was fine, if you can't handle a few paragraph you ought to go back to 3rd grade.
Its good to have a more serious article every once in a while, I wish reading would be mandatory for every player wanting to spec tank (be it Warrior/Pally/Dk/Druid).
darian Feb 21st 2010 2:52AM
It's the very seriousness of the subject at hand that demands brevity and order.
Think of writing the same way one thinks of raiding. Serious raiding involves a very precise, efficient flow from trash pack to trash pack, minimizing any tangents or delays in order to reach the end point as fast as reasonable risk allows. There a crucial balance between risk and time efficiency involved that must always be navigated.
Serious writing is much the same way. The topics you're attempting to cover are very often of an extreme depth. By nature, you can not afford to meander around or belabor the point. For that reason each paragraph and sentence needs to have a clear purpose. Sentences or paragraphs which do not are excess which will clutter the thought process of your readers and detract from your point.
So consider, in an article with the clear purpose of elaborating on Warrior threat, was it necessary to spend the first two paragraphs on how the author constantly changes glyphs, respecs, and deals with gear mismatch issues without a single mention of threat?
There isn't one answer to that question, but in this case it's my opinion that the purpose of this article would have been better served by trimming the excess.
TyphonTook Feb 22nd 2010 3:25PM
Brevity is important when in a raid situation. To that, I wholeheartedly agree. Reading this site is not a raid, and should not be written as such, however. Going off on the situation the writer finds himself in doesn't "belabor the point", it sets the tone. Besides that, Rossi has always been about balancing the important points of his posts with a level of humor and entertainment so that we don't get bored reading a text-book. It's called "The Care and Feeding of Warriors", not "How to Play Warrior". Even the title sets that tone.
That having been said, raids and dungeons that go smoothly and efficiently are certainly satisfying, but they can also be horribly boring if everyone is a robot. That same level of balance can improve enjoyment of the game.
I sadly got into the game late and missed all of the craziness of the raids my two WoW vet friends frequented in Vanilla. They could have tried a little harder to include me in their leveling groups, but they were impatient, and had too much invested in the end-game content with their mains. That always bugged me, but not because I was being left out of leveling with them. Their weekly raid stories were always hilarious. From something a guildy said over vent, to something that went ridiculously wrong in a raid that was funny. EVEN if it resulted in a wipe, it was something to laugh at. I you can't enjoy yourself, then the victories are hollow. If you CAN, then even defeat can be entertaining.
In other words, enjoy the post, and take what information you can from it. Don't dissect it so much that you miss the point.
darian Feb 22nd 2010 3:44PM
Everything you said regarding writing essentially falls under the "every sentence/paragraph must have a purpose" rule. The purpose can very well be humor, breaking up the dryness of the post, maintaining a friendly, jovial tone etc. As long as the purpose is clear, and followed, then there isn't an issue.
The intent of the author is what determines those purposes. A "serious" article, as Elmouth posits, has very different intentions than the generally humorous but still informative article you have as your premise. The resulting article should look and feel very different accordingly, but need not violate the basic rules of organized thought and writing to do so.
I essentially hold that the article failed at times to maintain this basic order, and that this is true so long as it wasn't Rossi's explicit intent to do so. Whether the article is "serious", "humorous" or "casual", I do not believe that disorganization is inherently necessary.
But that's enough from an anonymous armchair editor.
Umehte Feb 19th 2010 2:36PM
I really have to ask... If you have to do this much calculating and painstaking number mushing is the game still fun anymore?
Xandemus Feb 19th 2010 2:47PM
That is probably why the game is STILL fun. My version of winning in this game is maximizing potential in all situations.
havocker Feb 19th 2010 2:57PM
for some people the calculations are the fun part, for me personally a lot of the fun is figuring out how the game works, or how a certain class/spec (say blood DKs or shadow priests) plays
J0ust Feb 19th 2010 3:00PM
I can understand that view, but for some, the enjoyment of the game *is* number-mushing; this is especially true with tanks, the best of whom have several different sets of gear for different purposes (I don't run heroics in the same gear that I use to main tank, for example). Number mushing is the reason why sites like Elitist Jerks, Maintankadin, and TankSpot exist, and are so popular.
My old warrior class leader from TBC once told me something that has stuck; great tanks are cerebral.
I know exactly what he meant. Back in TBC I remember running heroic Underbog with a fully Tier 5 tank who couldn't hold threat in a paper bag; he overgeared the instance and spent it rage starved. And in WLK, I've run heroics with tanks in crafted blues, a couple of DPS pieces, and one or two Naxx epics who could blow some ToC25 geared tanks out of the water on threat, because they understand that in heroics threat, and damage, is more important than a fat health bar.
So yeah. Number crunching may not be very warrior-like, but the best tanks realise that gearing theory is as much a part of tanking as mashing your hotkeys.
Cataca Feb 19th 2010 2:46PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcWnud1AtEE
^Rossi
Sindella Feb 19th 2010 2:46PM
Improving your toon and using his/her abilities to the max, and then seeing the effects is always fun for me.
joseph schafer Feb 19th 2010 3:42PM
Matthew - As a fellow prot warrior I have made some strides to clean out my UI such that I have a better view of what I am tanking. I dropped the SCT mod and so on, and I keep grid up, which shows me whether others have agro...
What mods would you recommend that would help warriors and all tanks to better handle threat during multi-mob situations? Ideally, I'd love to have some sort of add-on that enhances my ability to recognize threat issues in multi-mob situations before dps pulls and also allows me to make better use of intervene if they do pull.
Also, though it is rare, I do experience taunt misses, and in situations like Saurfang, I'd like to be warned of this. Any thoughts?
bleuchz Feb 19th 2010 3:55PM
I second the notion that a UI post specific to tanking would be nice. Even replying to this post with a list of the UI's you commonly use would be nice :D
Unain Feb 19th 2010 6:59PM
My interface as warrior tank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcxSlMTVdK4
Drop me a comment/email if you want to know more about it :).