Officers' Quarters: PvPvRaid

I have to admit that I was surprised when I read this week's e-mail. This is an issue that has never really come up in my guild. We have players who only PvP, and we have players who do both PvP and raiding. I can't ever recall a time when someone who PvP's and raids has chosen PvP over raiding. After all, you can PvP anytime, while raiding is a limited, scheduled activity. Let's take a look:
Dear Wise and Veteran Scott,
I need your assistance with an issue that I see will soon hurt the guild I am in. I am the Raid Leader/Officer of a casual raiding guild and we recruited some people (some DPS and a Healer) that at first we would raid with and it would work great but, when Season 8 of arena hit, we couldn't get them to answer us in guild chat regardless of the topic.
We gave them space and recruited more people and we have been Raiding TotC, ICC, and new boss of VoA every week now. Recently, now that the hype of Season 8 has died down, they started to ask about when we are raiding so they can join. The problem is they want to raid in the PvE gear they have yet to upgrade and we have been spending these weeks gearing up the regulars to do more ICC Bosses and get to Lich King before expansion. Should we punish them for leaving us high and dry and then asking to raid when they are bored of PvP or should we try to include them and making regulars mad?
Thank you for a great column,
The Squid
In my opinion, Squid, you're thinking about this the wrong way. You aren't punishing them if you leave them out of your raids. You're just doing what you have to do.
Raiding with the guild you belong to isn't a basic right. All too many players think that they're entitled to a slot in every run just because they have a guild tag under their name.
On the contrary, a raid slot is a privilege that must be earned. A raiding team is just that -- it's a team. You can't decide one day that you don't want to be part of the team and then act like nothing happened when you want to come back.
They made the decision. Leaving them out isn't about you punishing them -- it's all about what they've chosen. Bringing them back now with the same privileges as someone who has stayed the course would only cause drama and dissent.
It would be one thing if they had told you, "Hey, we're taking a break from raids for a few weeks so we can PvP more. We're sorry if this is an inconvenience." But they didn't even give you the courtesy. Beyond that, they literally ignored you for the entire time.
It's strange to me that they would do that. Are you sure they just weren't so engrossed in their battles that they couldn't read guild chat? I myself often have to skip reading guild chat when I'm raiding. It's impossible to keep up with it when you're in an intense combat situation. Did you try whispering them at any point?
Regardless, their choices put you as the raid leader in a bad position. You recruited them to raid and they left you high and dry. You had to start over and recruit other people to replace them. Now they want you to drop those other people you had to recruit so they can come back? I don't think so.
They've thrown away the privilege to raid with your guild, and they'll have to earn it back. You need to make it clear to them how their actions have affected you and the guild. Don't be confrontational or emotional about it. Just lay out for them the hardship that they've caused. They may not even be aware of it. You'll also need to explain how unfair it would be to ask your regular raiders to give up slots for them.
That said, you can offer them some options. You can allow them to raid with you when you need them to fill in for someone else. That will only work, however, if they can even get the job done in their current gear.
They'll have to show you that they're serious about raiding. They'll have to start gearing up however they can by running dungeons for Frost Emblems or spending some cash on Primordial Saronite for crafted gear.
If they aren't willing to do that, and if they aren't willing to sit on the sidelines for a while, then it might be best for your guild to part ways with them. You certainly can't count on them in the future, and you don't owe them anything. If anything, they owe you.
Keep in mind, however, that we are entering the downhill slide between expansions. I've already seen raiders deciding to take a break from the game, probably until Cataclysm launches. So you might wind up needing these players sooner than you think.
We're seen some stirrings from Blizzard with the Ruby Sanctum raid and the possible Echo Isles/Gnomeregan events that they aren't going to leave us completely without content between 3.3 and 4.0. So it may not become as bad as the transition from Burning Crusade to Wrath, when we endured a painful 7-month stretch of nothing at all.
That was a tough time for guild leaders. Raiders were quitting left and right, and poaching was rampant. Hopefully, with some content to fill the gap, it won't be quite so bad this time around!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
dkhar Feb 22nd 2010 1:15PM
Yea when I used to raid I would turn off guild chat so that I could concentrate more on what is happening. It was always a pain otherwise to see something go by in the chat log, only to fly by and not catch it because you got hit by guild spam. And even though everyone uses vent now a days, you still have people that don't have a mic, or don't use one for different reasons, and some guilds won't allow you to talk in vent anyway if you are not the raid leader. Also if you are in a battleground or arena, you are going to be paying much more attention to what is going on then what is happening in guild chat, I would also like to know if they got whispered, but remember, whispers can fly by without anyone noticing too because of BG spam as well! Its happened to me before, always need to know where a person is before you try and talk to them and understand they might not be paying attention for a reason.
Not saying this is what happened with them, but it very well could have.
Spikeles Feb 23rd 2010 1:08AM
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/chat-customization.html
-Put your guild chat, trade, officer, raid and party in different tabs from your "general" and you'll never miss a chat ever again.
-Get WIM (WoW instant messenger) and you'll NEVER miss a whisper again.
SeanFury Feb 22nd 2010 1:26PM
Leading a guild is a tough thing; needing to know when to be fair and when to be tougher, and knowing when it is the right thing to do in any given situation.
You shouldn't be letting these guys hop in when regular raiders fail to show up. Yes, they'd be an excellent choice if you didn't have anyone else and they were they had the proper gear/knowledge/skill, but that's extremely close to rewarding them for their behavior. You have to make it known that your raiders can't just trot off and leave the guild empty for some months and then come back when new content is out and expect their position to still be there waiting.
Does your guild still run old raids? My guild does this all the time when we're not working on new content, mostly to keep the raiders in top shape, but also to help new regulars (or potential regulars) become geared and to do achievements or hard modes. If your guild does, allow these guys to hop in on those, but keep a tight schedule like the normal raids so that they're forced to keep up with it. That way you can see if they're still willing to commit to the guild or if they really don't care; then you have your answer.
JonathanRivera579 Feb 22nd 2010 1:36PM
With all due respect, I would have to disagree with a few points.
First, the idea that you can PvP whenever you want, while PvE is on a set time schedule is only true for you if you are already of that opinion. Many premade battlegrounds require the same effort to put together if you plan to succeed as a raid would, and queueing at the proper times in arena to ensure you are against teams that are actually a close enough rating to you to make a difference in your rating can be crucial. In addition, you can find someone in /trade spamming LFM ICC just about any time of day.
PvP and PvE are very similar in this respect. You can do either anytime, but you can only do either WELL at specific times.
Second, I feel as though your view of what is owed to whom is skewed. After all, they did not join a hardcore raiding guild. As this writer said, he joined a casual raiding guild, and thus the social contract into which he entered does not enlist the same duties; while I could absolutely see the leader being justified in not taking him along in future raids due to abandonment, I do not believe that the would be raider owes him anything, nor should he be expected to go out of his way in terms of gold investment or frost emblems to prove himself. He may, but he is not obligated to.
Other than those points, I felt this was a wonderful article, and very helpful. Very good sir!
/Salute
SeanFury Feb 22nd 2010 1:45PM
I'm just gonna quote the parts I'm replying to:
Jonathan: "In addition, you can find someone in /trade spamming LFM ICC just about any time of day."
That doesn't mean they know what they are doing or have competent raiders with them. Even a casual guild knows to make sure everyone knows the strategies.
Jonathan: "I do not believe that the would be raider owes him anything, nor should he be expected to go out of his way in terms of gold investment or frost emblems to prove himself. He may, but he is not obligated to."
Against
Scott: "You certainly can't count on them in the future, and you don't owe them anything. If anything, they owe you."
If these raiders that ditched raiding for PvP was a regular raider, which it sounds like it by them having to recruit more people, he certainly owes something to the guild. If they wanted to get back into raiding with the guild, they would HAVE to go out and get the proper gear, otherwise they couldn't come to begin with because they would just be a liability. Ya dig?
Glaras Feb 22nd 2010 1:53PM
"After all, they did not join a hardcore raiding guild. As this writer said, he joined a casual raiding guild, and thus the social contract into which he entered does not enlist the same duties; while I could absolutely see the leader being justified in not taking him along in future raids due to abandonment, I do not believe that the would be raider owes him anything, nor should he be expected to go out of his way in terms of gold investment or frost emblems to prove himself. He may, but he is not obligated to."
I have seen this attitude before, and I must say that I disagree with you. For some reason, the "casual" part of "raiding guild" seems to be taken by many as a carte blanche to do what they like, when they like. After all, it's casual, right?
The term casual should not be taken to mean "non-serious", nor should it be construed to mean that members can assume that they have ready access to a raiding slot, or that the other raiders in the team are automatically willing to take whatever level of committment they get. "Casual" can mean many things, but it is most likely to mean that raiding won't take a majority of the week, nor will it run for 5 hours a night. It specifically does NOT mean that raids won't be scheduled, that no attention will be paid to group composition or ability/gearing. It does not mean "we have to take you, because you're a guildie". If someone wants to show up one day and get a slot, they shouldn't be looking to a guild; they should be pugging.
I'm with the author on this one. The PVPers chose where they wanted to spend their time, and they have the right. But the raid moved to other folks, given the PVPers' absence. If there's no slot on the team that's open, then they'll have to wait, or form their own raid team.
Incidentally, this letter is timely, as my guild is also dealing with the ramifications of some people being more "casual" than others.
Ezzy Feb 22nd 2010 2:00PM
Yes PVP takes coordination, but Scott isn't talking about the merits of PVP vs. PVE. He is talking about the fact that these people joined a RAIDING guild. Yes they may be casual but that doesn't mean that their time is any less valuable. If anything their time is more valuable because they may not raid as much as other guilds.
The PVPers in question should have said something at the beginning of the season. You can't quit raiding, no matter what type of guild, without saying something and expect to have your spot back when you are ready to raid again. It isn't fair to the officers who had to recruit and it isn't fair to the people who took their place.
The PVPers should show how serious they are about earning their spot back. If they are allowed to raid without them trying to get gear on their own by doing the heroic daily, pugging or crafting gear, then what is to say they wouldn't do it again when the next arena season rolls around.
Ohmah Feb 22nd 2010 2:05PM
I have to agree with Jonathan. If these guildees had accepted a raid invite and then ignored it for PvP that would be disrespectful to their guild, otherwise not responding to a "Hey we need another for ____, get in here!" is asking them to drop what they are doing. Is that fair or respectful of the guildees time?
The beginning of a season is a crunch to gear, grind honor, grind a rating - worse if you have more than one toon competing. I only accept raids that can potentially drop something to give me an edge in the ring the first few weeks of a season, and I'd consider myself more than a casual raider.
It sounds to me like a few folks value raiding more than PvP - which is totally fine - but maybe these guildees value PvP more. Afterall, didn't The Squid state it was a casual raiding guild?
Adoisin Feb 22nd 2010 3:11PM
My guild is a casual raiding guild. To us, casual means we have fun while we progress. We don't have a cow if we wipe. We don't raid every single day. There is no nerd rage in my raid group. There is also not a lot of hassle over loot... we all know we will down whatever boss again, and have another shot at goodies. Frequently, when asked to roll on an item, the conversation in vent is along the lines of "give it to the other warrior, he needs it more." Casual does not mean that we do not take raiding seriously. We want that boss down just as bad as the next guy, and we work hard at it. We may work harder than some others, because we know that we only have a few hours each raid time to progress thru a raid, instead of a marathon of 5 or 6 hours like some guilds I have seen.
We have a few folks in our guild who usually raid with us, or did until the season started. Now, they go do the PvP thing while we are raiding. No big deal, really. They know that we are going to fill their slots with other players until they get geared up enough to join us again. If they decide not to raid with us, that's cool too. We are more of a social guild than anything else. If they decide not to raid, we will fill their slots permanently. If they decide to raid later on, they can go on a standby position.
We use the in game calendar for a lot. If people accept, they get the first shot at a raiding slot. If they don't, no pressure. If they continue to accept and not show up, we quit inviting them for a bit until they get the schedule worked out for themselves. Real life happens to everyone, we don't punish people for it.
Celeane Feb 22nd 2010 6:00PM
Really excellent thread. Only the leadership and committed members of a casual guild really seem to grasp the fact that good attendance to an easy schedule doesn't make you hardcore. The rest of the guild is depending on you to show up; the people who raid with you AND the people who replace you when you don't show are both deserving of your respect and it's not fair to bench them because a more casual raider wants to come play for a night.
BubblePriest Feb 22nd 2010 7:07PM
Casual means something different in every casual raiding guild. In some guilds, it may mean simply that they raid for a limited amount of time a week, but those times are announced well in advance. In other guilds, it may mean that raids are pulled together at the last minute with whoever is on. Some casual raiding guilds may expect members to be prepared for raids by researching the strategies, having their gear enchanted and gemmed, and having flasks and potions when they zone into the raid (10 minutes early please!). In other guilds, members would likely respond to a question about what flasks they're using with "wut".
In some casual raiding guilds, clearly, the PvPers behavior would not be out of line. There is no way of knowing whether this is the case because the exact nature of the casual raiding guild was not communicated to us, and for that matter, we don't know if it was communicated to the PvPers.
That being said, there are no guilds where you are GUARANTEED a spot. Even the most casual of casual raiding guilds cannot guarantee members a spot; what happens if you have more people wanting to raid than you have spots for?
In an uber-casual guild, where people using raiding as a way to hang out with friends, not showing up still may result in losing a spot. If a friend repeatedly blew you off whenever you asked to hang out, and you started hanging out with new friends instead, are you obligated to hang out with the old friend when they suddenly want to be chums again? What you decide to do is probably dependent on how much you liked them to begin with, and how hurt you were by being blown off.
Noctune Feb 26th 2010 7:29AM
What defines a Cassual Raiding guild for starters?
does that mean
a# they only raid when there is enough ppl online?
b# they raid with groups of ppl who don't play so often? they have no fixed groups?
c# they accept slow progession ?
etc... i realy don't like the idea of saying Hardcore or Cassual raider.
its not Black/White but more of a LOOOOOOONNNNGGG Grey scale
basicly i never been in a Hardcore guild and never will be my IRL situation and beeing a older more mature player i realy can't play at 18ish when my kid is awake. i realy can't play in a guild where im not allowed to go AFK kid in a raid. yes i view my self a as cassual gamer.
i have even been a GM of a cassual guild so i know the commitment and problems that can arise in thoes guilds but the main thing here is that in my PoV is that no guild thats truly a cassual guild can raid successully and still beeing cassual it will eventualy go down to some ppl will leave the guild due to frustation of not getting the next boss down or some ppl who don't like general heading of the guild this will normaly result in a split in the guild some oldtimer who is more then happy with running occaitonal raids and some 5mans with close friends while others are after new pixels in the long run you can't please thoes two archetypes with ease.
my sugestion to other cassual gamers is : Play for fun, you have payed for the game then you play it as you want to, if that means you can or can't raid well then you have to accept it.
in reply to the problem above i whould say as a cassual raider you should atleasy make one or two raid/ week (ToC pref) an Free raid that means FIFO order of signup (FIRST IN FIRST OUT) with that meaning the ones who sign first gets in as long as you got healer & tanks this should target content you normaly whould just crush with ease. if the Raiders in the above text get in here then fine you can slowly gear them up and let them back in the raider pool.
but normaly i don't like stuff like a "Raiderpool" etc since it feels hardcore i love all my guildmembers and whouldn't care who joins up or who gets to sit out but for progression raids i whouldn't let them in since there gear check is to low.
//Greedorin of Common Sense
//Finarfin or Shadowforge Reborn
Dah Feb 22nd 2010 1:40PM
Choosing PvP over raiding isn't all that uncommon. I just recently quit formal raiding and switched from my raiding guild to a casual PvP guild. Maybe it was burnout, maybe it was my love for PvP just being sparked enough, but either way, I'm happy with my choice.
As for the issue here, if you have a scheduled raid, the players need to either opt out and let raid leaders know ahead of time or do their PvP later. Even if it's not a PvP v PvE issue, when you have a schedule involving 10-25 people against one involving 2-5 people, then the priority should be clear.
Gimmlette Feb 22nd 2010 1:42PM
Another thing is how much interaction with these people was attempted when they weren't in Arena? When they logged on, did someone greet them, talk to them, ask how their teams were doing? It can be tough to constantly do that particularly when someone doesn't return the "Hi. I'm fine," before going on their way. Maybe they feel left out of guild life because they would log on and no one would talk to them.
The other thing you'll need to consider is that if they have been doing Arena and PvP, they may have exceptional gear from the PvP aspect and want to raid in that. They may not see how just because it's PvP 245, it's not always suited to PvE content.
It's going to be delicate, but Scott is right about being forthright with them. "I'm glad you like Arena and BG but we've got this core group and we had to recruit people to fill the slots we had hoped you'd fill." Do you have alts that need gear? Could you put together an alts raid and then include these people? It's not as glamorous as the cutting edge group but it is just as necessary.
DragonFireKai Feb 22nd 2010 1:47PM
In my guild, if you get recruited as a raider, and you duck out of a raid to do PvP, you get placed on "Social Member" status. The guild no longer covers your enchants or repairs, and we begin to recruit your replacement. Once we have your replacement, the only way you'll get into a raid with us again is when a slot needs to be filled and there are no core raiders, members, or trials who can fill the position.
jealouspirate Feb 22nd 2010 1:56PM
Yesterday I turned down going to a raid so I could do world pvp in STV (2 large groups of lvl 80 pvpers, not ganking lowbies).
There's something special about pvp, especially good world pvp (which rarely happens). It's epic, and so unpredictable. After so long having DBM tell me exactly what my enemies will do second-by-second, dealing with human opponents is completely refreshing.
Anyway, all this to say that I don't think giving up PvE for PvP is weird at all.
Methuus Feb 22nd 2010 2:06PM
Of course there is nothing weird about wanting to pvp over pve.
The article was just saying that if you ditch on scheduled guild pve raids frequently (for whatever reason), then you can't reasonably expect the raid leader to give you a priority spot on guild raids on those occasional times that you want to go.
If you don't have that expectation, then there's no problem here.
jealouspirate Feb 22nd 2010 2:13PM
Oh, sure, I agree with the author's advice completely. He just mentioned at the beginning that this isn't an issue he encountered a lot, that's all.
James Riggs Feb 22nd 2010 2:05PM
TLDR... and the PVPers will see it the same way. Their short attention span is suitable only for "Buh buy" /guildremove
Nick S Feb 22nd 2010 2:09PM
If they literally wouldn't answer you in guild chat and you saw them in battlegrounds, there's a decent chance that they're botters.