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2-25-2010 @ 11:07AM
"what sense does it make to allow the Cataclysm races Worgen and Goblins to be DKs"There have always been Worgen and Goblins in Azeroth.
2-25-2010 @ 11:20AM
And furthermore, goblin and worgen DKs will go through the DK starting area, not their racial starting area. I don't think there is a lore problem here at all.
2-25-2010 @ 11:26AM
Just because Arthas is dead doesn't mean that the Lich King no longer exists. There is a replacement for Arthas, therefore meaning DKs are still an existing part in WoW Lore.
2-25-2010 @ 11:33AM
...Well, but in a technicality the fall of the Graymane wall won't be until after Arthas is defeated (ditto with the particular tribe of goblins being on continental Azeroth as it currently exists.) I think it needs a little weaseling to make any sense- I guess Arthas was dealing with Arugal so he could have imported a few worgen, he also could have captured some of the island goblin, but you'd have to assume they were DKs before they were alliance or horde. Which isn't really a lore problem but it is a little bit of a hiccough.
Yeah, it confuses me why people think this is an issue. There were goblins in Lordaeron, as anyone who goes through several of the Caverns of Time has seen. And Gilneas is right there -- it can be assumed that the worgen were captured after the events of the worgen newbie zone, which are explicitly about the Scourge attacking Gilneas.
2-25-2010 @ 11:39AM
@RingoActually it's the Forsaken who are attacking Gilneas, not the Scourge. Completely different scenario.
2-25-2010 @ 11:42AM
@ Ringo Flinthammer: The Worgen starting area deals with the Forsaken attacking Gilneas, not the Scourge. The Alliance worgen are meant to be one particular stripe of worgen, made of people in Gilneas being infected with the Worgen curse. There have always been other Worgen out there (the Sons of Arugal, for example), so the idea of Worgen DKs is not entirely outside the realm of imagination, but it takes a lot of squirreling to do that.Ultimately, if Blizzard says the lore takes a backseat to gameplay (and they always have) then it's just a matter of suspending disbelief.
2-25-2010 @ 12:04PM
Don't forget about that village right outside of SFK. I can remember running into then in my nub ally days.. Human during the day, worgen in the evening. Also, The goblins from the Steemweedle Cartel were there and COULD have been killed and converted. So what if they are no longer part of that particular Cartel, the fact is they are out there and now part of the horde.
2-25-2010 @ 12:10PM
Worgen and goblins death knights won't go through the Gilneas or Lost Isles questing areas, meaning they are free to have a unique backstory that's different from the other ones.There have always been plenty of goblins, so working them into the story of the Death Knights of Acherus is nothing difficult.As for the worgen, the DK starting quest which reveals their backstory (the one where they must kill an old acquaintance) need only say that they're originally from Grizzly Hills (say, Moonbrook), where Arthas had human/worgen under his command thanks to the Shade of Arugal.
2-25-2010 @ 12:17PM
@ Ringo Flinthammer: It's only a problem for people who don't have a grasp on the associated lore and feel the need to endlessly complicate things to compensate for that. I wrote a wall of text on yesterday's Queue in response to that question, but to summarize: you can easily fanwank an explanation for both Arugalish Worgen and the Cursed Gilnean Human variety. There are Gilneans outside of the Greymane Wall, in the game, right now. Baron Longshore, the pirate lord in the Barrens, is one. Gilneas is a port city. It's really not that big a stretch to assume at least a small number of cursed Gilneans got out via ship and then fell to the Scourge. As for Goblins, they're mercenaries, were present during many Scourge battles during the Third War (Quel'thalas immediately comes to mind), and are well-traveled to this day..Frankly IMO people are just a) ignorant of lore and/or b) rules lawyering so they can call "lol lore". My money's on B, considering a lot of these people did the exact same thing regarding Draenei and BE DKs, which require even less fanwanking than Goblins and Worgen. Even though Blizzard has said flat out that Goblin and Worgen DKs are an issue of Gameplay and Story Segregation, they still jive perfectly fine with the lore if you're even halfway knowledgeable.
2-25-2010 @ 12:33PM
There's also worgen in Grizzly Hills. You think Arthas couldn't have gotten people from as nearby as Grizzly Hills?As far as it not being the "right" goblins... I figure a Goblin's cartel loyalty is about as flexible as who's going to show the biggest profit margin.Plenty of easily explained Worgen/Goblin DKs.
2-25-2010 @ 1:48PM
Worgen DKs make ZERO SENSE. I challenge anyone to refute me on this. The whole Gilneans leaving Gilneas (a rarity to begin with, Kylenne came up with exactly ONE example) WITH the curse, THEN running into scourge THEN getting transformed into DKs instead of just getting ghoulified is just too far fetched. Not to mention the starting area story states pretty clearly that you were in Gilneas when the Worgen curse broke out, and then you were captured in Worgen form. You didn't have time to go on a swashbuckling adventure on the fracking high seas and get turned into a DK.And the Worgen from Grizzly Hills aren't the Worgen you're going to be playing in Cata. They aren't Gilneans and the story states pretty clearly that you're a Gilnean who just barely got the curse. So you're not one of the Worgens from Grizzly Hills who've already had the curse for a while now.I'm gunna call lorelol on this one and agree with Ziebart that Worgen DKs are just for the fun of it.
2-25-2010 @ 1:57PM
it will make a whole lot of sense when you accept your DK quests from arthas in cataclysm especially after he's already officially been killed.ICC was merely a setback.
2-25-2010 @ 2:51PM
I don't see why people are getting so difficult about this issue. Worgen and Goblins exist right now, hence they can be killed and raised as Death Knights no problem. Sure they won't be Gilneas Worgen or Bilgewater Cartel Goblins, but does that matter?My Forsaken DK I've always played as being simply human, but she was too decomposed and broken to be accepted by human society and so was taken in by the far more tolerant Forsaken. Not a problem lore-wise is it? The same will apply to Goblins and Worgen DKs. They may not have come from that faction originally, but they will end up working alongside them after they escape from the Lich King's grasp. For instance, after the destruction of Kezan, where's a newly-freed Goblin DK really supposed to go? Its basically Steamwheedle or Bilgewater and the Horde-aligned cartels are going to be more acceptable of an undead killing machine Goblin. Or if you wanted, just say that you're an agent of the Ebon Blade keeping tabs on the faction by virtue of being of same the race. There must be dozens of plausible explanations. People really should stop throwing their rattles out of the pram.thebarrenschat.wordpress.com
2-25-2010 @ 3:13PM
I don't really care that much, but have to agree it's quite a stretch to say there is no lorelol in goblin and worgen DK's. I've yet to see one in game afterall. It would have been much easier to swallow if they had thrown a few into ICC, but they didn't. The goblin race that joins the Horde is from the Lost Isles, and joins for a specific reason. If the profit margin for going Horde is good enough for goblin DK's, why do the rest of goblin-kind remain neutral (Booty Bay, Tanaris etc.) Also, if a goblin (or Worgen) DK goes to their respective starter area, the quests will more than likely treat them as islanders (or Gilnean). I doubt the quests would be written specifically to exclude them.The worgen that join the alliance are from Gilneas, which is still behind the wall when Battle of LHC happens. On what basis would non-Alliance worgen from Grizzley Hills join the Alliance after becoming DKS. I don't see them making the decision just because of the Gilneans. But really, no matter how Blizz swings it, they could have put in a couple token scourge goblins and worgens to make it more believable now, instead of the mass of them that will suddenly appear on expansion day. Where have they been hiding since the start of WoTLK? Were they the Lich King's secret weapons that he forgot to use? Why are they not currently working with the Ebon Blade, but suddenly will be after Cataclysm?Again, I don't really care that much. Gameplay means more to me than Lore. I'm just saying its stretching the Lore to make it happen.
2-25-2010 @ 3:27PM
I wish they'd have lore take a backseat to fun again and let Worgen be shammies. :)
2-25-2010 @ 3:50PM
I don't fully understand how it isn't lore justified that Draenei can become druids and Worgen shamans. They're both nature based, and considering some of the combinations being allowed (NE mage? After the Sunwell, Illidan, and all that?). Furthermore, both Taurens and Trolls will have both druids and shaman come Cataclysm, so there's precedent (Hell, Taurens have both already). I'm not against any of the new race/class combos, but it seems there are some more obvious ones that slipped away.
2-25-2010 @ 4:49PM
So will there be two different "Server First Level 85!" notifications for regular worgen/goblins and DK worgen/goblins?
2-25-2010 @ 4:59PM
Neutral/Mercenary Goblins and feral Worgen get killed, and risen as Death Knights. Goblins join the Horde for revenge, while the feral Worgen (after the Death Knight mental conditioning) has become sentient and joins the Alliance Worgen, since it can no longer run with it's own pack.
2-25-2010 @ 6:30PM
To me it seems that Arthas (Lich King) can teleport anywhere in the world he wants? It seems so from every time I have ever seen him in game. Right now the Gilnean's are behind the Greymane wall affected by the worgen curse, no? So who says he hasn't gone there to recruit some DKs? I do not think that would be very far fetched, they are living creatures so they share the same enmity The Lich King has for the all other living creatures. Also perhaps the little bit of Arthas left in the Lich King has a special place in his (nonexistent) heart for the people who abandoned the Alliance back in the day.
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