Breakfast Topic: A random topic
by Anne Stickney 
Feb 26th 2010 at 8:00AM
a·chieve·ment - n.
1. The act of accomplishing or finishing.
2. Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance.
The achievement system was introduced back just before the launch of Wrath of the Lich King. There wasn't really any purpose to the achievement system, although some achievements give pets, items, or titles -- the main purpose of an achievement seems to be just... something to do when you've got nothing else in mind.
Personally, I love the achievement system. I like being able to plug away at something tedious and somewhat mind numbing every now and again, regardless of the fact that those points really don't mean anything. What bothers me though, and has bothered me since the first cries of an achievement being too difficult to complete is the little voice in the back of my mind that wonders if people realize what an achievement is supposed to be.For an achievement to be an achievement, there must be some element that is working against what you are working towards, something that you have to overcome. To that end, some achievements take a tremendous amount of skill to complete. Some just take a really, really long time. And when you have an achievement that doesn't take time, or skill, something else has to be thrown in there -- which is where the random number generator comes in.
That's the one that seems to bother people the most -- the random nature of some drops being so utterly rare that it seems like an achievement is impossible. People cry foul and say that the RNG makes it too difficult to complete an achievement -- but by the very definition of the word, an achievement should be something that is difficult. If that RNG is removed, something must be put into place to make that achievement difficult again, either that or they should just remove the word 'achievement,' call it a giveaway and hand out pets and titles every couple of months for no reason whatsoever. By now, almost every really difficult achievement has been either culled, changed, or turned into a Feat of Strength rather than a simple achievement. Personally speaking, I think that nerfing an achievement or making it somehow easier to obtain cheapens the achievement itself, but that's just me.
So here are a couple of questions for you: What makes an achievement too hard for you? Would you rather the achievement system did away with the RNG factor entirely, and if so, what would you put in place to make those achievements something that is an accomplishment, rather than just a giveaway?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Howlie Feb 26th 2010 8:04AM
LFM Shammies for [Less-Rabi]
RetPallyJil Feb 26th 2010 8:14AM
Or that the famous pally-stun worked on ANYTHING over level 30.
Bazz Feb 26th 2010 11:16AM
Why would you need a shammy for that? Did it with a pally tank, rogue, hunter and mage dps and priest healer when trying for it and a few random times on alts without a shaman aswell.
Ilmyrn Feb 26th 2010 11:19AM
@RetPallyJil: If a Ret Pally (Or any paladin for that matter) tells you his HoJ didn't work on Moorabi, he's just trying to cover for the fact that he missed his timing. The interrupt part of it works perfectly.
DeathPaladin Feb 26th 2010 12:15PM
@Bazz
While it is possible to do it without a Shaman, having 5/5 Reverberation will give a Shaman's Wind Shear the same cooldown as Moorabi's transformation for the last 50% of his health bar. So the Shaman can just spam it while the other 4 players burn him down.
Hollow Leviathan Feb 26th 2010 2:00PM
I ruined a Less-rabi attempt one time because I mistakenly thought that my Avenger's Shield interrupted spellcasting just because it silences. I thought they updated all silences to also interrupt on bosses!
Gamer am I Feb 26th 2010 8:09AM
I think the reason people have issues with the RNG is that it has nothing to do with skill. RNG-based achievements aren't actually challenging; they're just completely based on luck, and thus a noob could end up with an achievement that a veteran tried for as hard as he could and could not get.
I don't think the system should do away with RNG based achievements, but they shouldn't be a part of meta-achievements that are supposed to be based on skill and/or dedication. That's why many achievements were removed from the holiday metas. What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been is supposed to be a measure of your dedication, and while logging in every hour to flirt with a guard is certainly a show of dedication, the fact is that some people didn't have to do that. It just wasn't fair, plain and simple.
In fact, the RNG risks making something *less* of an accomplishment because one could get really lucky and get something after only a few tries, and where's the satisfaction in that? Still, for things like mounts that drop off of holiday bosses, the RNG is still the way to go. Players shouldn't get up in arms about cosmetic items that are difficult to get because they are RNG-based, because they are just cosmetic; they have no real impact on your gameplay what so ever.
D Feb 26th 2010 8:49AM
This. The RNG takes away skill/determination which is what Achievements are about, in my opinion.
As an example, in 2009 I wasn't able to get all the achievements needed for the meta for "Love is in the Air" -- even though I logged on as much as humanly possible for me. After a few days of logging on every hour when I wasn't working or sleeping was so incredibly frustrating b/c it became WORK and took all the fun out of it.
This year, I was able to finish the meta by being dedicated enough to do all the dailies and buying the items I needed. It took time -- but RNG wasn't a part of it. It was much more satisfying to know that putting in time/effort WOULD pay off eventually. With RNG -- there is never a guarantee that your time/effort will be paid off -- ever.
I don't mind Achievements that are long, tedious, possibly boring or even extremely hard b/c I know that if I put in the time and skill, I'll get it eventually.
Loreana Feb 26th 2010 9:49AM
This.
The biggest problem with some of the low drop rates that featured in the holiday metas was that the RNG ended up being harshest to those that put in the most effort. It was, after all, only people who hadnt had their (for example) candies drop that carried on putting the hours in. The people that didnt have the acheivement at the end of the event were (if they cared about it) actually likely to have put in far more effort than those that had it which seemed wrong. I think Blizz just hadn't thought it through and ended up changing it.
The holidays do also fall into a special category; most of the other low drop rate issues can be plugged away at. Mount not dropped yet? Keep farming. Not got Needy? Keep farming. But the holiday stuff had an effective one year lockout which meant the RNG was felt all the keener.
What really got me angry at the time was the large number of people actively campaining to keep the RNG as it was (who almost exclusively had whatever they were whining about already). The view seemed to be that the acheivement was diminished because more people would have it. This just struck me as selfish and illogical. I guess I'm far happier with acheivements being rare because they are difficult than acheivements being difficult to obtain because they are arbitrarily rare.
Over all I think Blizz ended up getting it right with the "nerfs" to the meta requirements. But then I would say that once I got the drake...
Hal Feb 26th 2010 9:28AM
Determination is one thing, but many of the RNG achievements strongly favor those players who have the time to spend hours and hours just playing the game, or even NOT playing the game! When I look at things like the spirit beasts or the Dalaran books for the Schools of Magic, I see endless comments about how people just sat and camped a location for endless hours. Some of us can't do that!
Kaz Feb 26th 2010 9:38AM
"Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance."
People get mad at RNG achievements because it has nothing to do with "exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance." Its all about luck, and many people don't have the time to keep spinning the wheel (or waiting for a wheel to spin...) for some of these achievements. Usually if you go for something like Higher Learning, Bloody Rare, or Northern Exposure you have to camp to the exclusion of the rest of the game.
If you Raid or are on an Arena team you're not going to be able to do those achievements for a good chunk of your play time. Not to mention the RL issues that prevent many of us from being able to be on 24hrs a day (little things like: sleeping, eating, working, going out with friends to maintain a health relationship to society).
Contrast those RNG achievements with the Dungeon/Raid Achievements (Skill and Practice), The Mount Achievements (Perseverance) or even FoS like Insane in the Membrane (Exertion and Perseverance). You can get those at anytime but you either have to grind it out, or have skill to do them.
TR Feb 26th 2010 11:11AM
Amen! To use another analogy. Imagine if getting an A on that exam, you diploma, getting you dream job, or a bonus check at your job was based on RNG? Why bother putting any effort into studying, going to work on time/every day, or researching for an article if some shmuck can do it by picking lint out of his navel?
Vandersveldt Feb 26th 2010 12:00PM
Are you kidding me? Get out into the real world. The whole point is that getting your dream job, getting that promotion, meeting that special someone IS all RNG. And incredibly low odds at that!
Kassima Feb 28th 2010 4:43AM
TYVM!!
I personally am no stranger to hard grinds for acheivements, I have 2 Seekers, and a lot of 'Ambasador before 70'-s. I don't mind spending a lot of time grinding rep or quests or w/e really, but what get's my goat, is how all my character's seem incredibly unlucky on 'cosmetic drops'.
For example, Brewfest 2007 I did the ticket grind and got a ram for my warlock. Incredibly excited fro Brewfest 2008, I got a slap in the face EVERY day I took my other characters to have a little talk with Coren. I saw the ram and kodo drop mayyybe 2 or 3 times, and my rolls were always embarrasingly low. 2009 Brewfest was no different and I just gave up after about the 3rd day of hassling to BRD for more dissapointment.
In 2008 I was privaleged to just be awed at having a healer in a group, who have never been to that event, get a ram on his very 1st attempt. And this was no isolated case, the forums rang with outrage of everyone like me, who was looking forward to getting their alts a nice mount after a steady grind. NOW its all luck based and 'sux 2 b u wif low luck rolls lololol'.
Now how does having good luck on a roll for something make it a feat of strenght to have it?
PS: I'd realy like it if they brought back the ticket system for brewfest mounts btw, imo they can have another mount (like a brewfest mammoth) drop from Coren, if it's really needed.
aaronthecow Feb 26th 2010 8:11AM
I say that an acheivment is too hard when i have to break casual gameplay in ofder to get it.
Tom Feb 26th 2010 8:10AM
I have no objection to RNG per say.
The issue becomes when there are certain, limited, or very sort after achievements which require RNG.
If there were 100 achievements, and you get one of those 100 depending on RNG, then that would be fine.
It's when there is 1 achievement, and you need to get a 1, (or 10,000 achievements and you need a 1), that RNG becomes rubbish.
That being said, I can think of very very few RNG achievements that are particularly sort after. The RNG stuff people want tends to be mounts and pets, not achievements.
So I think the claim that it's the Achievement system that is RNG, is wrong. It's the items, nobody cares if they have the Big Love Rocket achievement. They want the mount. And there are plenty of hard to get mounts.
jealouspirate Feb 26th 2010 8:13AM
I like to know that when I set out to do something that if I work hard and long enough that I will succeed. So I don't really mind low RNG based drops and achievements as long as I can continue to try, because eventually you will get it (probably).
in my opinion, the frustrating ones are when you have an RNG based achievement on a limited-time event (ie Love is in the Air 2009). Then that becomes an extremely stressful, entirely luck based week.
Anyway, I find that a lot of achievements that may seem hard or tedious at first can actually be a lot of fun. I set out of fish up the turtle mount, and at first I was getting annoyed and hanging on to every cast, hoping for a mount. Eventually I learned to love the process, exploring Northrend for the most beautiful locations to fish. I relaxed and enjoyed fishing! Eventually, weeks later, I got the turtle. I was overjoyed about achieving my goal, but importantly I had enjoyed the process as well.
shoan Feb 26th 2010 8:13AM
we killed rabi for less rabi the other night and killed him so fast that we did not get the achievement. We killed him in like 15-16 seconds, this was before he was able to change to the mammoth yet we did not get credit for the achievement. It turns out you have to pass through a full cycle of him trying to change before it will give credit. Never mind the fact that we blew him up before he could change. I think when they designed this achievement they did not for see us WTFPWNing him in such a crazy fast way. So we have to go back and do this again but kill slow before we put him in the blend tech blender.
Tony Romo Feb 26th 2010 8:45AM
Eww, Rabi Smoke. Don't breathe that.
RobertoT Feb 26th 2010 9:00AM
I read that with his voice :D