Skip to Content
2-27-2010 @ 6:09PM
Oh my god, when you think of it the fall of stormwind would be an awesome CoT: Instance, maybe some hordies would realize that king varian has a reason for hating them. :P
2-27-2010 @ 6:44PM
A lot of today's orcs are the children of the ones who razed stormwind. Hating the orcs who razed your city sure. Hating their children and everybody of the same race who wasn't even on the same planet at the time? Just racist.
2-27-2010 @ 6:57PM
Possum, it may be a racist opinion, but you have to admit that it is a common and understandable (however stupid) opinion.
2-27-2010 @ 7:03PM
Understandable maybe. But acceptable for the leader of a State? Nope.
2-27-2010 @ 7:18PM
That's an excellent moral standpoint, Possum, and I really don't want to deter it, but don't confuse Azeroth with 21st century Earth. How the leaders within Azeroth act and their personal beliefs and opinions do mirror those of our leaders in the past. It's not unacceptable when you realise that Azeroth hasn't had the 1970's yet. Jaina and Thrall will get us there, and we'll have a completely different version of Green Peace in WoW, but we've not had it yet.Racist world leaders have existed, and to be honest, most of them still are, they're just not vocal about it, but they still make decisions that are driven by their blinkered perceptions.
2-27-2010 @ 7:24PM
Maybe some hordies would prefer a Horde-themed instance this time, one where generic human disguises are not necessary...
2-27-2010 @ 7:29PM
I'm a little lost as to what your point is then? Personally I think if the Horde get an excellent leader who was able to put his bad experiences behind him and move forward then the Alliance at least deserves the same. I can understand *why* Varian feels the way he does but it doesn't make me like him any more. It just makes me look at him and wonder why he is so much less than Thrall.
2-27-2010 @ 8:01PM
It's only been 30 years. It's not like the orcs from the first war are long-dead; at this point, many of them are leaders of the modern Horde.
2-27-2010 @ 8:09PM
And Thrall is a terrible leader. Don't let the fact that Garrosh is an idiot make you ignore what a mess Thrall is:1) In order to "unify" the Horde, he dissolved the millennia-old Orcish tribes. Except, whoopsie, his own, the Frostwolves.2) He allows traitors and murderers to live in the middle of Orgrimmar and in Durotar so he can "keep an eye on them," although he never seems to actually move against them or use any of the intelligence to prevent future tragedies.3) He strikes alliances with other races that end up turning on the Horde repeatedly. And no, this isn't just about the undead: the LEADER of the blood elves -- the one whom Thrall made an alliance with -- turned on the Horde.He hasn't made the Horde safer; he's made it less safe. He hasn't made the Horde more prosperous; they still live like beggars in squalid huts. He hasn't even reclaimed the Orcish homeland for the orcs -- a goal well within reach -- nor driven the quillboar out of the lands of his closest allies, the Tauren.Thrall is inept at best and a fool at worst. But he's a nice guy and he's not Garrosh, so most Horde players think that makes him a great leader.
2-27-2010 @ 8:22PM
Possum, while you are right to say that Varian should forgive the children of the Orcs who have done no wrong, your argument falls apart when you realize that they HAVE.Thralls failure to police his people lead to the betrayal at the Wrath Gate. The fact that the Orcs lost people too does not mean that this does not count. Had Thrall kept a better eye on Undercity he would have seen the eventual betrayal of the RAS (Sylvannas is also responsible, in the fact that the entire project is her idea).Then there is the Hordes breaking of the peace between the nations by attacking retreating Alliance soldiers at the Broken Front, and the rash actions of Garrosh in Dalaran.Every time Varian has held back or shown mercy, the Horde and the Orcs have struck. The Orcs are warlike, it is in their nature. They will strike again and Varian is acting perfectly reasonable in not trusting them as far as their tusks
2-27-2010 @ 8:26PM
I'm not a lore expert but i'll give this a shot.2. If you're referring to RFC I wouldn't point fingers until the alliance king takes care of the 5 year long riot that's been going on in his prison. Not to mention that the entire kingdom was under the control of black dragons for years...3. Illidan. Arthas. Alterac and Lord Aiden Perenolde. Sorry, what were you saying about the horde allying with traitors?4. The orcs have always lived in huts and presumably enjoy doing so.5. Why on earth would Thrall want to take back almost uninhabitable lands that are breaking apart and crumbling into the Nether...?
2-27-2010 @ 8:44PM
Ryan. While Thrall certainly did fail to predict the Forsaken coup I imagine his attention was focused elsewhere at the time. As soon as he heard about it he went straight to the UC and took care of those responsible (despite what you think whether Sylvannas was responsible or not is not a black and white issue)Saying the Orcs are warlike by their nature is just ignorant as they lived relatively peaceful lives back on Draenor before the burning legion came.I can't excuse the horde forces that attacked the Alliance troops in Icecrowm but it was a single incident that you can be sure was not a result of Thralls orders. Please explain to me how "Every time Varian has held back or shown mercy, the Horde and the Orcs have struck." when it was this one time?
2-27-2010 @ 8:52PM
@Possum"2. If you're referring to RFC I wouldn't point fingers until the alliance king takes care of the 5 year long riot that's been going on in his prison."You don't see a difference between a riot that the officials are trying to quell and an officially sanctioned group of terrorists operating within the city?"Not to mention that the entire kingdom was under the control of black dragons for years..."And when it was discovered, Onyxia was driven out. Again, Thrall explicitly says he WANTS the council operating in Orgrimmar. "3. Illidan. Arthas. Alterac and Lord Aiden Perenolde. Sorry, what were you saying about the horde allying with traitors?"Illidan isn't a member of the Alliance. The last time he was considered one of the good guys, the night elves hadn't even blown a hole in the planet.Arthas is a traitor and an idiot. That doesn't make Thrall not inept and not an idiot.And Alterac turned tail and ran and paid the price. That doesn't make Thrall not an idiot, either."5. Why on earth would Thrall want to take back almost uninhabitable lands that are breaking apart and crumbling into the Nether...?""Almost uninhabitable?" They're inhabited with a wide variety of life and Super-Thrall is a big time shaman. If anyone could knit back Draenor, it's him and his elemental buddies.Thrall has no particular interest in the welfare of his people. He's a "good leader" because he's "nice."
2-27-2010 @ 8:53PM
@Possum"Saying the Orcs are warlike by their nature is just ignorant as they lived relatively peaceful lives back on Draenor before the burning legion came."... and then they voluntarily chugged demon blood for the express purpose of becoming unstoppable in battle.I'm sure Gandhi would have done the same.
2-27-2010 @ 9:07PM
2. A riot that is going on strong for *5 years*? I thought we were talking about ineptitude here. If that isn't an example of an inability to run a kingdom I don't know what is."3. Illidan. Arthas. Alterac and Lord Aiden Perenolde. Sorry, what were you saying about the horde allying with traitors?""Arthas is a traitor and an idiot. That doesn't make Thrall not inept and not an idiot.And Alterac turned tail and ran and paid the price. That doesn't make Thrall not an idiot, either."I'll give you Illidan but as for the other two you're saying that traitors of the alliance don't count, only traitors of the horde? Why? A traitor is a traitor. They were on the Alliance's side now/then they're against. How is that different from Kael? In case you didn't notice Kael is dead now too."Almost uninhabitable?" They're inhabited with a wide variety of life and Super-Thrall is a big time shaman. If anyone could knit back Draenor, it's him and his elemental buddies."Less than half the zones on Draenor would be habitable. You've got Nagrand as the only really viable one, you could maybe make a case for a few of the others but that doesn't change the fact that the planet is in ruins and has very questionable long time vitality issues. Also last time I checked Shammies didn't have a "put back together exploded planet" spell.As for the demon blood: Yes it was exactly as simple as that.
2-27-2010 @ 9:10PM
@Ringo Flinthammer:They didn't voluntarily chug the demon blood, the Legion was influencing one (or several) of the Orcish leaders. The ones who were consorting with demons and forsaking the way of shamanism to gain power. It was those warlock leaders who coerced the rest of the orcs to drink the blood.Look at the Mag'har. They live simple lives and didn't drink the demon blood.
2-27-2010 @ 10:09PM
What all of you are completely ignoring is that Wrynn's racist point of view is perfectly valid based on his experiences. How many of us have ever had our entire lives destroyed by an invading alien species? Even when he decided to try and hold a diplomatic meeting with Thrall, he ended up betrayed and a slave to the orcs. You can't even possibly begin to truly empathize with the situation, regardless of which side you take. You're attempting to suggest his motivations are wrong based on a 21st century interpretation based on our own civilization. It's the only way most people can analyze it, but it means you'll never be able to truly do so. Of course we know Wrynn's thinking is wrong, but it is also perfectly valid. I like to think I'm an open-minded person, but if a sentient alien species came and killed my entire family, destroyed my country, and then enslaved me for years, I have a hard time believing I'd be open to giving them a second chance.As far as your ridiculous arguments on both ends about things like traitors in Ragefire Chasm and Stormwind's Stockades, it's an MMORPG. If you actually do all the quests available on both sides of these issues, both these instances have been successfully taken care of. Of course there are still NPCs to kill in there, if the instance emptied out after the first group came along and killed it, no one would play the game anymore. From the lore perspective however, you've taken care of these problems. The ridiculous part is that both of you seem to be using a series of events for the opposite faction wherein you never partook in the quest chains or completely ignored the facts. Thrall's reluctance to enter RFC himself is detailed in the quest chain. Try reading the quests as you do them, there's a lot of information contained therein. It's not that Thrall wants the Council operating; Thrall wants the Council operating where he can see them. His hold on the Horde is less absolute than it could be, and he's doing his best to keep tabs on these subversive elements. Keep your friends close, your enemies closer as it were. The Stockade riots for most people were way back before we even had a true king, instead having Onyxia as a puppet master, and so obviously she didn't care about stabilizing things. If you want justification for new players, use the fact that the majority of the King's troops are fighting the Lich King in Northrend. The riots are bad, but they are contained, and so take less precedence to the threat that could destroy all life on Azeroth.As far as not believing Thrall doesn't have an interest in the welfare of his people, you've clearly only done the Wrathgate from one side. Anyone who can listen to Thrall's speech following the Wrathgate events and not believe he's been devastated is an idiot and a fool. He never uses the intelligence he gathers to prevent tragedies? What possible basis could you have for this accusation? Is Thrall supposed to be sending you a memo on all the affairs of state he deals with? It's a gigantic world and there are supposed to be things you assume go on behind the scenes.On to the demon blood. Yes, the demon blood was voluntarily drank, but that's only part of the story. Grom tells Thrall this in Warcraft III, stating specifically that the Orc Chieftains had willingly made the blood pact with Mannoroth due to a lust for power. What you're ignoring is that while the chieftains deserved everything they got, the majority of the orcs underneath them were screwed over, pure and simple. If your father, Ringo, were to make a willing pact with the devil, would you then turn around and say that you deserve any consequences as a result, even though you knew nothing about the pact at the time? I highly doubt it. While it is an extreme example, it is also an exact analogy. The heads of the clans doomed the entirety of the clans, and they had no say in the matter.I personally play Alliance almost exclusively. I have 4 Alliance 80s and a multitude of alts. My only Horde is a level 80 shaman that I created solely to experience the other side of the lore. Until you've done the same, you need to stop failing at arguing lore points. This game has no good or evil; the Horde and the Alliance are equally flawed. This is exactly how Blizzard intends it to be. You're supposed to pick your side and feel loyalty to it; of course, for those of us who've bothered to see both sides, there's a clear sense that both are as wrong as they are right.I'd really like to continue debunking your arguments point by point, but I'm certain this is likely an exercise in futility. You've both picked your sides and don't care that the other might have valid points. All I can hope is that others who read this realize that the above arguments are without merit.
2-27-2010 @ 11:40PM
Thanks for assuming my background and point of view MazokuRanma. I do play both factions and personally don't have a problem with the Alliance except for Varian who as you pointed out has obvious issues and I don't believe should be leading his people. *shrug* that's pretty much it. I'm not trying to vilify the alliance, just saying the Horde aren't the evil faction some people want to believe they are and that the Alliance has it's share of problems too.As for trying to judge Varian as a leader by 21st century western values, I'm not sure what century or culture you need to be in where putting your own shit before your people is considered good governance.
2-28-2010 @ 12:31AM
Keep in mind that for Varian to accept Thrall's lip service that the Horde want peace, he has to ignore: The Forsaken kidnapping Alliance citizens and testing their new Plague on them. The rest of the Horde apparently going out of their way to ignore said plague work. (Hell, the Quillboars probably acknowledged it before the Horde did.)Forsaken and Grimtotems attacking Alliance in Dustwallow.Horde agents murdering Galen Trollbane.Even if we don't count mutual screw-ups, battle-ground reasons, the Wrathgate, the Horde-sponsored Dreadlord, the Broken Front and Varian's personal history, at what point is he meant to trust them anymore? If he were as rabid about it as people like to think, he wouldn't have let Saurfang retrieve Junior's body.
2-28-2010 @ 12:55AM
Ok so this Razing of Stormwind idea is really great.I think they should take it one step further and make 2 instances which are in fact the same instance told from the different sides. One version where you are the Alliance and evacuating the city and fighting wave after wave of Orcs with Garona being the final boss or something. Or another version that is the opposite, you're an Orc attacking the city, fighting wave after wave of guards (and civilians if you choose to) with the occasional Boss popping out, with Anduin being the final boss (or someone else that would make more sense lorewise)Long story short: Same instance, two perspectives.
First time? A confirmation email will be sent to you after submitting.
Members enter your username and password.
Enter your AOL or AIM screenname and password.
Please keep your comments relevant to this blog entry. Email addresses are never displayed, but they are required to confirm your comments.
When you enter your name and email address, you'll be sent a link to confirm your comment, and a password. To leave another comment, just use that password.
To create a live link, simply type the URL (including http://) or email address and we will make it a live link for you. You can put up to 3 URLs in your comments. Line breaks and paragraphs are automatically converted — no need to use <p> or <br /> tags.