Introductory guide to fighting rogues, Part 2

In addition to Kick and their arsenal of stuns and incapacitate effects, rogues are absolute nightmares for casters because of Cloak of Shadows, which makes them considerably more resistant to spell effects for 5 seconds. Rogues can use this to remove DoTs, which would normally prevent them from re-entering stealth. When a rogue activates this, it can only mean one of two things -- she wishes to flee or she's moving in for the kill. In some cases, it's even both, with the Cloak of Shadows allowing the rogue to re-enter stealth without fear of it breaking and then returning to finish off an opponent from stealth with vicious opening moves. The ability is on a 1.5 minute cooldown, which means rogues won't be able to use it as often but the best rogues always find the right opportunity to use it and not just blow it on the first few DoTs.
The scary part is that it is considered a removal effect, and not a dispel, so it won't proc spells with dispel triggers such as Unstable Affliction. Despite their higher resistance through this period, keep casting spells at them, anyway. The chances of landing a spell will vary depending on your spell penetration, so higher Spell
Blind
So rogues can stun and incapacitate. Did I mention they can also disorient? Blind is a clutch ability that rogues use to escape, dictate the pace of a battle, stand aside to bandage, or keep a second opponent out of play. It has a long, three minute cooldown but talents can reduce that two. It has since been changed from a poison back in the day to a more difficult to counter physical effect, meaning practically the only things that can break a Blind would be a trinket or paladin immunities. Blind is almost always used defensively because it breaks on damage and rogues can take the opportunity to run and re-stealth after exiting combat.
It is often worth using the trinket on Blind, mostly because it is always used strategically. Rogues never use Blind at random the way they might use any other ability. Rogues who blow their Blind cooldown are either planning something nasty or hoping to flee. In either case, the ability's long cooldown makes it a prime candidate for the cc-break. That said, trinket use against a rogue is always discretionary considering how many crowd control and lockdown abilities they can employ.
Dismantle
This Wrath ability has become a staple in rogue PvP. Think of it as Kick for melee. Dismantle is on a longer, one minute cooldown, but it allows rogues to handle melee classes which they would otherwise have a harder time with. It helps to keep track of Dismantle through AddOns such as Afflicted 3. Because the abilities and attacks of most melee classes and even hunters rely on their having a weapon, Dismantle effectively keeps them from doing much for a very long ten seconds. A good way to counter this is by using your own crowd control abilities if you have some, such as a stun or fear. Keeping the rogue out of play for a majority of the time you are Dismantled should lessen its impact, allowing you to stay on the offensive.
Vanish
While I could have lumped this in with stealth, Vanish deserves special mention because it's such a clutch ability. It allows rogues to escape almost any encounter completely, which is vital to rogue strategy. No other class has such a viable option for escape other than, perhaps, a paladin bubble-hearthing her way out of harm's way. A rogue with Vanish available means that she always has a way out, so even a rogue with a sliver of health can conceivably Vanish and spoil what would've been a killing blow. Almost any rogue worth her PvP salt will have it properly glyphed, allowing quick escape from even the most dire situations.
Keep track of Vanish, and always have a DoT applied on the rogue to break their stealth as soon as they enter it. It's a narrow window, but it's quite possible to pull off casting and landing a stealth-breaking spell or ability between the time they use Cloak of Shadows and subsequently Vanish. The best rogues won't be caught, however, because Vanish is off the global cooldown and some can macro it along with Cloak of Shadows to provide instantaneous escape. It has a long three minute cooldown, but the same talents that improve Blind can reduce that to two. The most aggressive rogues -- those who fight using burst instead of control -- will use Vanish offensively. If a rogue isn't low on health but Vanishes, you should expect to be dealth a vicious Ambush or if you're a caster, Garrote. And that reminds me. There's Garrote, too. Against casters, rogues will use Garrote instead of Cheap Shot or Ambush, using the 3 seconds of silence it grants to deliver even more damage. Garrote should give casters even more reason to keep the rogue from entering or starting the battle in stealth.
Poisons
Rogues can also tailor their fighting style according to their enemy using poisons. Just remember that these debuffs are, obviously, poisons, which gives classes that can remove poisons a bit of an edge against rogues (this should give you an idea why priests dread rogues so much). Paladins can Cleanse, druids can Abolish Poison, and shamans can drop Cleansing Totem. In fact, against a rogue, Cleansing Totem is the water totem a shaman should use.
One of the most common poisons that they use in PvP is Crippling Poison, which hampers movement speed and helps prevent them from being kited. This sees a lot of use in PvP because rogues must do all they can to keep their enemies close. Rogues are practically no threat at long range, so it is in your best interest to keep them at bay unless you're a melee class. Against healers, rogues can use a potent combination of Mind-Numbing Poison and Wound Poison. Because rogues must take some time to apply the proper poison to their weapons, they are at their best when they have prepared for an opponent, making them the most deadly when they have tailored their preparation to their prey. The most dedicated PvP rogues even have the luxury of extra weapons coated with different poisons allowing them to swap in whatever poison is strategically best with virtually no downtime.
End of part one
Rogues are an interesting study for PvP, and we've only just touched the surface! Tomorrow, in the next installment of this introductory guide, we'll go a little more in-depth about the rogue's resource, Energy, as well as the combo point system. A deeper understanding of these mechanics will give you greater insight into how a rogue fights and thinks, as well as allow you to counter them. We'll also talk about their need for mobility, the kinds of rogue fighting styles -- pure burst, hit and run, and control -- as well as the obligatory spec overview to get a better grasp of the abilities that talent trees give them. Until then, stay safe and watch your back.
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Zyonin Mar 6th 2010 3:48AM
I have to agree about getting the drop on stealthed rogues. I am your basic Feline Druid and I have a tendency to eat Rogues when I get the drop on them. Even when they get the drop on me, I tend to do well and often turn the tables. Of course, it helps that I have been playing my class since Classic and have notched up many PvP kills.
Hasha Mar 5th 2010 5:35PM
"Because it requires that their opponent be facing them, rogues often also use this to maneuver behind their opponent."
This does not really make sense...
onetrueping Mar 5th 2010 5:09PM
Sure it does. Gouge only works if you are in front of your opponent. It drops you from combat and stuns your target for three seconds.
Backstab and Ambush only work if you are behind your opponent. Because of this positioning requirement, they are rarely used. However, if your opponent is stunned from Gouge, you can quickly move behind them and unleash a nasty Backstab.
Wrabbit Mar 5th 2010 5:01PM
I just got to say that Blind lasts waay too long...
that is all.
Hangk Mar 5th 2010 5:05PM
Since I seem to be unable to shut up on the subject of PvP versus rogues...
What Zach says about sound being essential to fighting rogues is true. In fact, if you have a quadrophonic sound setup of some sort, not only can you tell which side the rogue is on left-to-right, but whether she is in front of or behind you. Put that 5.1 channel sound card to work!
Next, everyone who PvPs should have a spammable rogue-hunting macro. The macro goes something like this:
/targetenemyplayer
/cast
/cleartarget
The ability used will depend on your class. (Feral) Faerie Fire is obviously a good choice, as is Hunter's Mark. Anything that applies a DoT -- especially a physical DoT -- is good because it will make it harder for the rogue to Vanish back into stealth. As soon as you suspect a rogue is nearby, start spamming this macro! If you can hit it in the "whoosh" instant when the rogue is visible to you, you will smack him or her right out of stealth, and appear pretty damn slick in the process.
Oh yes -- most Rogues have the Dirty Tricks talent from the Subtlety tree. This extends the range of their Sap ability to the point where they can Sap you right in the middle of a Concecrate or Death and Decay, without being knocked out of stealth. So don't expect either of those abilities to keep you safe -- you actually have to hit the stealthed rogue with it if you expect it to be helpful.
Rob Mar 5th 2010 5:50PM
This article may just make me roll a rogue.
I guess i still feel like rogues are way OP in 1vs1 combat. Granted I know I suck at PVP, but i've been stunlocked so many times by rogues. The ability of one class to lock you down essentially infinitely just means that they are more PVP designed, and has nothing to do with skill (other than mashing a macro).
And sorry, but what kind of person will cloak, stunlock stunlock stunlock, then corpse camp or whatever. If you are going to do PVP, do it face to face or when the opponent has at least some ability to fight back. This is not war, this is a game, supposedly a balanced one.
Ghritke Mar 5th 2010 6:20PM
Very fun article.
Broken dow, if you want a chance to survive a rogue, buy a trinket and use it wisely. Get the trinket from SW vendors and get the knowledge from rolling a lowbie rogue. :] My rogue is level 45, and now I know exactly when to use my trinket as a dwarf holy paladin. It also helps that I have stoneform, even the nerfed version. And Lifeblood. :D
Fletcher Mar 5th 2010 6:59PM
A good article, even if I'm opposed to sharing Rogue secrets with the uninitiated. Just remember, filthy frost mages; in 3.3.3 Subtlety is coming back. You can't run from my Shadowstep. >:D
Ghritke Mar 5th 2010 7:05PM
Hell yeah. Can't wait for those changes. As if my rogue needed help in the first place, now at least 2 of my main abilities are getting super buffed. w00t. When does the patch release again?
Hasha Mar 5th 2010 7:17PM
@onetrueping:
Gouge does not drop you from combat (thats vanish) and also does not stun (thats cheapshot and kidney shot) your opponent, it does incapacitate him.
Explaining my post:
What I was saying, was that "Because A, B" is not necessarily true even if both A and B are true. There has to be a link between A and B. If A weren't true then B wouldn't be true anymore.
An example: Because oranges are orange, bananas are yellow.
Yes, both are true but they are not linked.
If oranges wouldn't be orange, bananas would still be yellow.
The reason you use gouge is that
1. your enemy cant turn while gouged
and
2. if your enemy cant turn he cant prevent you from getting in his back
and
3. you have some attacks (backstab) that you can only do from the back
The sentence again:
"Because it requires that their opponent be facing them, rogues often also use this to maneuver behind their opponent."
The first part (A) of the sentence is a restriction to an ability. The second is a usage option of an ability. As a restriction does not increase your usage options (sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker), B would be true even if A wouldn't, so you can't say "Because A, B".
A more specific example:
"Because you can only open bottles with bottle openers, people open bottles with bottle openers".
Even if you can do another thing (like performing emergency heart surgery) with a bottle opener, that does not restrict you from opening bottles with it.
In our case, even if you could gouge someone from anywhere you would have 2 cases:
1. you're behind your enemy -> backstab directly
2. you're in front of your enemy -> gouge then backstab
So as in case one where you can't use it now you still wouldn't use it even if you could (for the purpose of getting behind the enemy).
However, you could understand it as;
"Because it requires that their opponent be facing them, rogues often also use this to maneuver behind their opponent, instead of having it on cooldown because they used this earlier on the enemy when they were behind him."
Now your enemy would only turn his back to you (if gouge would work from anywhere) if he wanted to run away from you because he would maybe lose the fight. However, because of crippling poison I think in this situation you wouldn't want to backstab but instead pump damage into him. However, if it was a Paladin with Hand of Freedom runing away to jump of a cliff when down there were his friends and kidney shot was on cooldown/ you didn't have combo points, it would make sense to gouge from behind to get combo points and let time pass to get your kidney shot off cooldown / let his hand of freedom go away. However then, he would likely not turn around and attack you, where you would want to gouge to get in his back but gouge would be on cooldown.
So thats why I think the sentence makes no sense.
Hasha Mar 5th 2010 7:21PM
"...I think in this situation you wouldn't want to backstab but instead pump damage into him."
Sorry, I meant
"...I think in this situation you wouldn't want to gouge but instead pump damage into him."
(can't find the edit button)
Brenthan Mar 5th 2010 7:29PM
I think this simply answered with this......if you want to have a sure chance on beating a rogue simply roll anything that wears plate. As a general rule of thumb this will almost always be successful. Mail puts up a fight leather, and cloth tend to be easier though.
If youve paid not attention to anything said before, just remember this: 2 players with more or less equal skill, and gear, and one of them is wearing plate, the other is a rogue........more likely than not the rogue will lose.
Assuming your both 80, since at earlier levels its considerably easier to kills opponents due to less health,high rogue burst, and lack of pvp experience by many players.
w4rh34rt Mar 5th 2010 7:59PM
I'm sorry but that isn't the case at all. For me, warriors and DK's are some of the easiest to beat as long as I'm careful. Open with stuns and makes sure I dismantle. With preparation glyph I can dismantle again, stun and then they're dead. Disc' priests are my fear. Fights normally last so long I just ignore them haha =)
olivia.appa Mar 5th 2010 8:38PM
"Kick is on a short, 10-second cooldown and it costs 25 Energy. Because of the short cooldown, you should always assume they can use it at any time and it won't matter too much to track it through AddOns. Keep the Energy cost in mind and always assume that a rogue with about a quarter of her Energy left can use it."
Minor, but rogue pvp gloves reduce Kick cost by 10, down to 15 Energy total. Most rogues you come across in pvp will have these on (sometimes swap them in for pve for interrupt-intensive fights like Vezax/Jaraxxus/etc. - good trivia to know if you're a raid leader). So even if I'm at 0 energy when a caster starts any cast of 1.5 secs and above, chances are I'll have regenerated the energy to Kick it before they get it off.
Pinochet Mar 5th 2010 9:41PM
Can't do that while stunned.
Brenthan Mar 5th 2010 9:40PM
i understand and im not saying they cant be easy but generally speaking.....its much harder to beat them. Like trying to fight a pally one on one get him down and hell lay on hands, get him down again hell bubble heal heal, and most likely youll be dead by the 3rd time around.
the most effective method ive found against warriors is kiting using rupture/garrote technique with poisons on them.....i just get far away so that im not in autoattack range but close enough so i dont get charged at, and i can easily reapply dots.
Dks it kinda depends on spec, but what will most likely tend to get me is the diseases although dispellable with cos
I however feel your pain with discipline priests......or any healer for that matter, like resto druids. It's kind of like i can beat you, i just dont want to spend 30 minutes trying to kill you while you heal your ass out until your finally oom.
thorns also tend to be fairly annoying
Ghritke Mar 5th 2010 10:17PM
Oi... you've just described a hunter's strategy. Tme to rethink your approach to plate. Let me tell you, as a plate wearer, rogues generally destroy me 1v1 at level 80.
Arkmoo Mar 5th 2010 11:48PM
i may be wrong and its been a while sense ive done any serious pvp with my rogue and im not all too familiar with other physical damage classes but doesn't kick interrupt anything that has even the slightest cast bar?
Fletcher Mar 6th 2010 1:21AM
That's so; it's just that casters are the ones who usually have cast bars. Other melee tend to use instant cast things. But if you're lucky enough to go up against a paladin who's casting Exorcism without an Art of War proc, you can interrupt that. And then /laugh at him.
I'm not sure if /kick interrupts bandaging, but I imagine it would, since that's a channeled ability. It probably interrupts cannibalism too. Clearly this bears further testing!
Matthew Mar 6th 2010 4:13AM
I like killing Rogues with my thorns! I'm not kidding. If I start with HOT's on me in tree form, the fight (duel style) takes about 3-4 minutes with thorns really hurting them. If I don't start with any hots on, i'm more likely to die.
I tried to play a rogue, i had a hard time. My hat goes off to you good ones.