Ooh, someone has rogue issues! Maybe, by reading the article, you'd learn a few things, eh? Meanwhile, I'll keep an eye out for yah, buddy. Lookin' forward to seeing your back!

I play a rogue, and believe me, you can not sap "endlessly". There is a clever mechanic called diminishing returns. You might want to google it. You can also detect a stealthed rogue if you face them, so they sap you at their own risk.
And why are rogues pussies? Because they stealth? Please, this is an ability, and a key one at that. Can't kill me? You are not good enough. You can not kill any class if you are not good enough. Most skills are counterable - when a mage does mirror image, you use your last target macro. The same works with vanish - most rogues, except dwarves, can not remove physical dots, such as bleeds. The lot of us also do not use a CoS macro (I made one just 3 weeks ago, and I have been playing for more than a year now), so magical dots work just as well. Also, when a rogue vanishes, they do not teleport. They are still mostly at the same place, so if you are good enough you can use an aoe.
I did not understand what you meant by "stealthing right by their teammates". Hell, I can't jump into a fight without stealth. Actually, I can. Level 10 rogues do it.

Instead of all the QQ, why not actually LEARN about your foe and try to formulate ways to beat him?

Oh, sorry, that would require effort on your part, my mistake. It's so much easier to cry and moan, right?

As a Rogue, I can only say that your QQ will not inspire my sympathy for you, but will only serve to increase my hunger for your blood.

While I won't pretend to speak for all Rogues, if you see me not coming out of stealth to help you when you're getting beat down, it means that I've already weighed and measured the conflict, and decided that throwing my body on the pile will not bring us to victory.

Did you even read the points i was making or did you just see that it was QQ and automatically downvote?

I made 3 very specific points, I'll go over them again:

1 - Sap
If sap has diminishing returns, thats good to know. It means that after 2 or 3 times of being sapped in a row the rogue is stopping because he has to and not simply because he got bored, but nowhere in the article does it mention that Sap has diminishing returns. If that fact isn't even mentioned in a HOW TO FIGHT ROGUES guide, then why would i have known to google it? I'm all for learning a class before QQing which is exactly why i was reading this guide in the first place. If an ablility like that has diminishing returns, this is where i would expect to read about it. I didn't come here just to troll. As far as calling them pussies, that was a bit in jest. You could say the same thing about a pally bubble hearthing.

2 - Cloak of Shadows/Vanish
The article itself says there is really nothing you can do against a good rogue using this as they will have it macroed together. So me not being able to kill you because of this specific ability has nothing to do with how good i am. This would be the equivalent of a pally bubble hearthing. Are you going to admit you're not good enough because you can't kill a pally while they are bubble hearthing? i didn't think so. Yes, i could get lucky with a dot or aoe but that comes down to luck. The rogue could have gone in any direction and some classes have limited aoe or dot abilities.

3 - My third point has absolutely nothing to do with me learning my foe and how to counter them. It was about rogues being loners and not helping with team objectives. By stealthing past teammates, i meant that instead of stopping to help a teammate who is about to die, they'll just stay stealthed and keep walking right by the fight on their way to go camp wsg gy or something. Other classes can't do this as much because they are visible so they will more than likely get sucked into the fight anyway, even if they didn't want to, but rogues can completely ignore their teammates-in-need and stealth right by them. And i see them do this in BGs all the time.

"If that fact isn't even mentioned in a HOW TO FIGHT ROGUES guide, then why would i have known to google it?"

Oh, I don't know, because pretty much every CC ability ever has DRs in PvP? But I guess a T9/Furious superstar wouldn't know that.

"So me not being able to kill you because of this specific ability has nothing to do with how good i am."

Yes, it does. Pretty much every class has a way to bring a Rogue out of stealth.

"Are you going to admit you're not good enough because you can't kill a pally while they are bubble hearthing?"

No, I'm not. Meet http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=32375.

"My third point has absolutely nothing to do with me learning my foe and how to counter them. It was about rogues being loners and not helping with team objectives."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rogue

@Grae

Yeah, i'm not talking about sure suicide situations. Any smart player stays out of those. I'm talking about fights that are teetering on the balance, where that one extra body would totally make a difference and win the fight. I see rogues pass these up all the time. (I'm sure they don't all do that, but being able to stealth sure seems to make them more prone to doing it.)

"Did you even read the points i was making or did you just see that it was QQ and automatically downvote?"

I don't usually downvote posts, though I might make an exception in your case.

"I made 3 very specific points, I'll go over them again:"

You also did a lot of fruitless whining, which is irritating and doesn't get you sympathy.

"1 - Sap
If sap has diminishing returns, thats good to know. It means that after 2 or 3 times of being sapped in a row the rogue is stopping because he has to and not simply because he got bored, but nowhere in the article does it mention that Sap has diminishing returns. If that fact isn't even mentioned in a HOW TO FIGHT ROGUES guide, then why would i have known to google it? I'm all for learning a class before QQing which is exactly why i was reading this guide in the first place. If an ablility like that has diminishing returns, this is where i would expect to read about it. I didn't come here just to troll. As far as calling them pussies, that was a bit in jest. You could say the same thing about a pally bubble hearthing."

Funny, diminishing returns on Sap was a big change a while back. Which means that you must be a more recent player. That said, if you are looking to fight a particular class, you really should be relying on more than a just-recently-posted article. Knowledge is a weapon, stop trying to fight unarmed.

Also, calling Rogues pussies was not in jest, it was whining.

"2 - Cloak of Shadows/Vanish
The article itself says there is really nothing you can do against a good rogue using this as they will have it macroed together. So me not being able to kill you because of this specific ability has nothing to do with how good i am. This would be the equivalent of a pally bubble hearthing. Are you going to admit you're not good enough because you can't kill a pally while they are bubble hearthing? i didn't think so. Yes, i could get lucky with a dot or aoe but that comes down to luck. The rogue could have gone in any direction and some classes have limited aoe or dot abilities."

No, it isn't the equivalent of a Pally bubble-hearthing. When a Pally uses that bubble, they are completely immune to damage. ALL damage. A rogue, using Cloak of Shadows, has a 90% resist chance to MAGIC. A rogue, using Evasion, has a 50% increased Dodge chance. A rogue, with Cheat Death, has a brief moment of 90% evasion of all attacks. None of these are perfect avoidance. Further, Vanish is currently still somewhat bugged, with any attacks CURRENTLY IN THE AIR still landing after the rogue Vanishes. This means that ALL ROGUES HAVE AT BEST 90% MITIGATION. A Paladin has their perfect mitigation bubble. Mages have Ice Block. Priests have Power Word: Shield. Hunters have Feign Death (which DOES untarget them, so you have to be clever). Further, since rogues have low health and armor, and no real healing option, they learn very quickly that surviving and patching their wounds up as soon as possible is in their best interests. Don't like it? Tough. Yer either able to pop us out of stealth easily with AoEs, or wrapped in steel, or both. Quit whining.

"3 - My third point has absolutely nothing to do with me learning my foe and how to counter them. It was about rogues being loners and not helping with team objectives. By stealthing past teammates, i meant that instead of stopping to help a teammate who is about to die, they'll just stay stealthed and keep walking right by the fight on their way to go camp wsg gy or something. Other classes can't do this as much because they are visible so they will more than likely get sucked into the fight anyway, even if they didn't want to, but rogues can completely ignore their teammates-in-need and stealth right by them. And i see them do this in BGs all the time."

Remember that bit up there about low survivability? A good rogue will always gauge any fight and decide if he can do enough damage at any point to take out an opponent before they can fight back. If someone is hard-pressed by several foes, a rogue jumping in will NOT turn the tide. If someone has the upper hand, popping out of stealth to help just wastes the element of surprise. A rogue in a BG is best suited to tying up enemy resources through careful assassination and cultivation of paranoia, through such methods as the constant sap that you loathe so much. Keeping the defense disoriented IS helping the team, whether you like it or not.

In short, quit complaining. You obviously took no time to understand the rogue class, how it plays, or how to play it, you just took your own experience of being repeatedly ganked, most likely due to your own lack of skill. Good day, sir.

@Magnett

"Oh, I don't know, because pretty much every CC ability ever has DRs in PvP? But I guess a T9/Furious superstar wouldn't know that."

So i'm supposed to know what the specific DR of a specific ability of a specific class is even though the guide i'm reading about said class doesn't even mention it? Right. I'm reading this guide because i'm NOT a PvP superstar. I never claimed to be. If i was, i wouldn't be reading this in the first place.

"Yes, it does. Pretty much every class has a way to bring a Rogue out of stealth."

How would, say, a ret pally or frost mage do it? Aside from spam aoe and hope to get lucky? Neither have dots (assuming ret pally is using seal of command).

"No, I'm not. Meet http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=32375."

Lucky you, you happen to be one of the two classes that can break it. That's beside the point though.

"http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rogue"

This one just agreed with what i was saying. But in a team game with team objectives like BGs they should be a bit less roguey and a bit more helpful imo.

"So i'm supposed to know what the specific DR of a specific ability of a specific class is even though the guide i'm reading about said class doesn't even mention it?"

You're at least supposed to know it HAS a DR. No one can CC anyone forever.

"How would, say, a ret pally or frost mage do it? Aside from spam aoe and hope to get lucky? Neither have dots (assuming ret pally is using seal of command)."

I kind of figured you played a Ret, but let's leave stereotypes aside. Yes, you have to hope you get lucky. Just like Rogues have to hope they get lucky with Frostbite procs or getting an opener before a Consecration tick.

"Lucky you, you happen to be one of the two classes that can break it. That's beside the point though."

And you happen to be one of few classes that has problems against Rogues, apparently! WoW isn't balanced around 1v1.

"But in a team game with team objectives like BGs they should be a bit less roguey and a bit more helpful imo."

You want Rogues to be less roguey? What's next, give Warriors Stealth so they're not charge+hamstring+smash machines or Mages Bladestorm because they have too many ranged attacks?

For every one of yours I could tell you a story about other classes that did not have enough situational awareness, they saw a mirage of victory where none existed and blamed others for defeat.

Without being able to observe your PvP experiences along side you, I will not say you are "that guy". Bad Rogues exist, but your initial post came off as rather "that guy"-ish.

Given that you didn't understand the diminishing returns mechanic, I think you really need to go back and review PvP basics. If you played on a Rogue you would have become very intimate with it having only a handful of battles under your belt at the beginning of your PvP career.

i agree with Thundrcrackr, cmon let me vote down :)

but playing rogue - god save us as a main - prove a bit spineless player. Now i had a rogue, and that time I felt fun when I saw the nerve, but its just begin to disgust me after a time, because its cheap.

so i rerolled.

and big smile for those whom braggin with skills. Well played kills on unaware opponents.

So the TL:DR of the argument is this:

Thundrcrackr is a scrub who's QQin about a class he doesn't understand.

No matter what anyone writes after him he'll always respond about how he's correct despite the obvious fact he knows nothing of what he's talking about.

I play a Rogue, and I dislike fighting Paladins and good Warriors, but that doesn't mean I'll complain and froth at the mouth everytime I get my butt handed back to me in butcher paper.