Shifting Perspectives: Changing Eclipse, part 2

The major point that a lot of players take issue with. Although the damage contribution from Eclipse is predominately to blame for a vast majority of its drawbacks, the mechanics of the talent itself are what players focus on most. To many, Eclipse is somewhat clunky, excessively RNG heavy, and doesn't play nice-nice with encounter mechanics. It is far too easy to 'waste' an Eclipse proc, or for Eclipse to simply take forever and a day to proc, and that's frustrating. There have been many, many, many, many suggestions on how to change Eclipse. Here are some of the most common ones:
Eclipse procs charges instead of a timer:
Pros:
- There is a limited chance to ever 'waste' an Eclipse proc due to movement.
- Very easy to balance the damage contribution of Eclipse.
- Much easier to use in PvP.
- Does not scale with haste as a timed version would.
- Reduces the 'skill' in making the most out of Eclipse.
- Still needs to have a timer to prevent abuse.
- Charges would have to be dispellable due to balance reasons.
Pros:
- Perfect control over when to use eclipse
- Less RNG based on how Eclipse procs (parameters depending.)
- Somewhat more skill based on how Eclipse is used.
- Natural lag between meeting specific parameters and ability to use Eclipse would cause frustration. (Go play a paladin and witness how it would function with Hammer of Wrath.)
- Doesn't actually help against the movement issue since you'd still want to use it as soon as possible; the conditions for not using it right away would be limited and very specific.
Consecutive Wrath crits increase the chance to proc Eclipse:
Pros:
- Somewhat reduces the RNG associated with proccing a Lunar Eclipse.
Cons:
- Blizzard likes the RNG. QQ
Leaving Eclipse how it is:
Pros:
- Some measure of 'skill' in how to use Eclipse.
- Some haste scaling on the out-put of the effect.
Cons:
- No control over procs
- Procs can be 'wasted' by movement
- Clunky/difficult to use in PvP
Conclusions:
Despite the flaws of the system, I actually favor keeping Eclipse how it currently is mechanic wise. While there are those that disagree with this, I have yet to see any suggestions for Eclipse that keep to the nature of the talent and actually fix the problems of the mechanics in an eloquent way.
The most popular suggestion is to implement a charge based system for Eclipse. Personally, I am against this entirely, though I can understand why it is appealing. The number of charges can easily be balanced against a standard haste variable, and aside from Potions of Speed and Heroism/Bloodlust, the haste scaling of Eclipse really isn't high enough to make a major impact on anything. I simply just don't like the design of having the buff effect a set number of spells no matter what you do. Call it elitist postulating, but I like the idea that, if I play well enough, position myself correctly, and stay aware of what it going on around me, that I can increase my DPS by more than someone who doesn't do these things. While there is some movement that is a result of RNG, not all of it is. I feel that having good raid awareness should benefit a player. Yes, it still would do so since higher DPS uptime always results in higher DPS, but it simply isn't the same in my eyes.
That being said, a good case can be made for using charges. There are times where an Eclipse proc can be completely wasted and it isn't the fault of the druid. During those times, I would kill to save my Eclipse proc by any means possible. My position on account of 'flavor' or 'elitism' isn't a solid leg to stand on, I admit that much, but it's the one I like.
The benefits of using the charge based system, however, do far outweigh the nasty side effects. The only issue that would need to be done to improve the system would be that the cooldown would have to be refreshed upon the buff falling off. So far as I know, it would be possible for Blizzard to code it in such a way, but I could be wrong. A nice bonus of this would be that the system actually would have some nominal amounts of haste scaling in a sense. If the cooldown was based upon how quickly you could drop the charges, then the faster you can drop the charges, the faster you can refresh the buff. The cooldown on each proc would have to be adjusted, however, probably down to 15 - 20 seconds. Since the cooldown resets after the buff expires instead of when the buff is activated, 30 seconds could easily leave you in a situation where both of your Eclipse buffs are on cooldown during a Heroism/Bloodlust or via other haste procs. 20 seconds would be much more reasonable, but could still clash if haste is too high, so 15 seconds is a much more practical option.
As an on-use ability, it would not be as good as people think, nor would it really solve any of the issues that Eclipse has. There is always going to be that annoying amount of lag between when the ability should be active and when it really is active and it's an issue that gets really old really fast. Plus, you are still going to want to use Eclipse as soon as you can, thus you don't actually gain much of a benefit. There are specific times when you would delay the use of Eclipse, such as when you know Professor Putricide is about to use Tear Gas, you're about to move out of Death and Decay or Malleable Goo, or pretty much during any boss phase change, but these situations are very limited. It would be a benefit, but a very minor benefit that honestly isn't worth changing the talent over.
As for reducing the RNG on Lunar procs; I would love it, but Blizzard most likely isn't going to do it anytime soon. Getting a nice string of Wrath crits that refuse to proc Eclipse is the most annoying thing in the world, yet it is exactly that RNG that Blizzard seems to approve of. We hate it, they love it. We cry, they laugh and sip gin.
Every week, Shifting Perspectives treks across Azeroth in pursuit of truth, beauty, and insight concerning the druid class. Sometimes it finds the latter, or something good enough for government work. Whether you're a Bear, Cat, Moonkin, Tree, or stuck in caster form, we've got the skinny on druid changes in patch 3.3, a look at the disappearance of the bear tank, and thoughts on why you should be playing the class (or why not).





Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Tony Perry Mar 5th 2010 9:23AM
I know it ain't gonna happen, but it'd be so much easier on us if they'd just scrap Eclipse altogether. Gimme back my boring rotation and the associated high level of control I had over it...
Dreamstorm Mar 5th 2010 9:58AM
I like playing my arcane mage for the more interesting rotation. It's what made the spec so fun to play. When this was 'buffed' by simplifying the rotation to the use of a mere 2 spells, I decided to switch to playing my moonkin, which had (and has) a far more interesting rotation.
'Buffing' Moonkin by removing the Eclipse altogether and increasing, say, base damage, you take the fun out of playing a PvE Moonkin.
We'll turn out to be just like mages, but fat and with horns (and lower DPS due to hybrid tax, but that's a different story.) and that's something I'm not looking forward to.
Dreamstorm Mar 5th 2010 9:59AM
*I liked playing.
In other news: WTB edit button!
Lissanna Mar 5th 2010 10:13AM
The developers don't want us to just go back to 2-button spamming. An important part of the moonkin fix for Cataclysm needs to be the introduction of more buttons for us to push. If you have other spells that are getting introduced, it makes Eclipse easier to nerf, since then we would be balancing our rotation around more than four spells (and wouldn't need Eclipse as the only mechanic that kept us from just spamming starfire).
Once we get other talents & abilities in place to help support an interesting and unique rotation (or priority system that most classes have moved to), then some of the Eclipse ideas don't seem as far-fetched.
Eregos ftw! Mar 5th 2010 1:21PM
The thing about eclipse is that it's our highest dps increaser. And even with it, we have a low average dps. Remove eclipse, and remove the majority of boomkins. IS-MF,Wrath x 5, SF x 5, ect, refreshing IS and MF when needed would not be fun at all. I'm not saying eclipse should stay how it is, I'm saying it shouldn't just go away. I for one am for the on-use spell, with say, 6 charges lunar eclipse, and 12 charges solar, maybe more.
Joshua G. Mar 5th 2010 4:39PM
I actually enjoy eclipse the way it is now. It's a perfect dps increase on fights where you don't have to move around alot in. That being said theres so many fights where moving around is required and that hurts... alot.
So i'm all for eclipse recieving charges. Lunar gets 8 charges and Solar gets 12 or 13. The charges reset again after 5 or 6 minutes.
Also would be nice to see a new spell that can add some pizzaz to our rotation.... IS, MF, FF, Wrath till lunar... Starfire till eclipse is up... Is, MF again... SF till solar... wrath till eclipse is up and rinse and repeat
csarcops Mar 5th 2010 9:32AM
Seeing as how I don't currently play a druid (though my husband has a raiding boomkin), this may be a dumb suggestion, but couldn't they set up Eclipse to work like a SV hunter's Lock and Load? Have it proc off certain spells, and then when it procs the next however many spells are mana-free or 10% faster or whatever. Much easier to control and not so RNG-dependent or screwed up by moving. Just my opinion (as a hunter) :)
Tribunal Mar 5th 2010 11:37AM
Well, for one, both of a Boomkin's major casted spells have their own Eclipse, and those eclipses are proc'd from the other spell.
But.. Boomkins only have two major casted spells.
And the "next however many" is essentially the charges described in the article. Currently, the buff simply has a duration.
hegar Mar 5th 2010 3:11PM
I'd be in favour of reducing the effect but increasing the %uptime, hopefully by making it a bit less RNG dependent to proc. If it's easier to proc, and less off a buff then losing it due to movement is less of an issue.
Regarding the RNGness of the buff (via crit) i think that's fine - lots of other classes have to deal with crit buffs and the RNG inherent in that.
Also, if they was a time (say 5 out of 15) seconds for it to overlap this would give some choice back - maybe wrath for single target, starfire for AoE - and add a further (small) element of skill into dealing with this iconic ability.
xvkarbear Mar 5th 2010 9:34AM
My ideal way of making the talent work: Eclipse procs charges with a 45 sec cooldown.
nieboh Mar 5th 2010 9:54AM
I don't play a druid, so I'm coming into this with just the information presented in the post, but this was my thought as I read through the suggested changes and their pros and cons.
My only modification to your suggestion is that when it procs you gain a number of charges equal to the number of casts you could make if you stood still spamming for 20 seconds straight. Then the charges stay for 45 seconds. This way, there is still an element of mobility provided and it would still scale with haste. Obviously the numbers I said are arbitrary and could be theorycrafted or whatever the Blizz developers do to make a talent have the effect they want.
Josh Warner Mar 5th 2010 1:59PM
This sounds like quite a good idea. The number of charges would probably be a bit lower than the 'ideal, freecasting' situation so as not to make this overpowered.
Also, one other talent that increases damage by at least 3k: Shadowform. Also iconic to the class, but less of a problem since it's always-on.
adam Mar 5th 2010 10:02AM
Very well written tyler. I wouldnt mind seeing kinda of a mix between timer and charges based. Here is how i would see it working. You proc eclipse, if for ever reason we are not able to cast due to phase changes movement etc...after say 2secs you gain a charge. Now if we dont have to move we would never gain a charge and keep casting like we do now. Those charges would just help ensure that we are getting the most out of our eclipse. Im sure the cooldowns would need to be seriously adjusted for this to work. But this would give us the dps boost where we would normally lose it due to fight mechanics.
Manic Soul Mar 5th 2010 10:06AM
Genesis does what Nintendon't.
glyakk Mar 5th 2010 1:27PM
win
TheSlayer Mar 5th 2010 10:08AM
I feel everyone's pain, I play on a Moonkin on my 25 raids a lot (altho Resto is my main spec).
When you talk about knowing how to extract the most dps from your toon by knowing where to put your toon, its true. On most fights the first seconds when we use Heroism and i get a Lunar Eclipse i pop up my haste trinket and a Potion of Speed and i catch up with our arcane mage and its amazing, as long as the bosses dont look at me and throw any of their spells the make me move.
I was thinking about the mechanic, I like it too, and since Blizz loves the RNG, i thought of changing Eclipse to the following:
Basiclly, each rank of Eclipse would be a different spell which makes your spell beign cast faster but adds a cooldown each time bigger on it. Let me explain.
Eclipse rank 1 would stay the same.
Eclipse rank 2 would say:
When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 66% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 40%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 39.6% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 40%.
In addition both spells get a decrease on their cast time by 50% but adds a cooldown them of the other 50% of the cast time of the spell.
Each effect lasts 15 sec and each has a separate 30 sec cooldown. Both effects cannot occur simultaneously.
Eclipse rank 3:
When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 100% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 40%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 60% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 40%.
In addition both spells get a decrease on their cast time by 100% but adds a cooldown them of the other 100% of the cast time of the spell.
Each effect lasts 15 sec and each has a separate 30 sec cooldown. Both effects cannot occur simultaneously.
I guess there should be also some adjustments on the % of dmg increased for Wrath and the crit for Starfire, making them weaker as you get to the rank 3 of the spell, which would'nt be a problem as you go from the lvl 80 starting gear to the end game one, making our crit cap go higher at least.
Everybody Mar 5th 2010 10:10AM
Another thing you could do is have some version of the eclipse buff on at all times, or increase the duration so much that it is basically the case within the context of one encounter.
Make it so that, when lunar eclipse procs, you have that buff until solar eclipse procs, and vice versa. It would take some the feelings of urgency and "skill" out, but you'd be able to tone down the crazy swings in dps (by nerfing the talent's tooltip benifits) while still maintaining the flavor and amazing graphics of the ability.
Qpally Mar 5th 2010 10:12AM
What if they did something different like add buffs to Insect Swarm/Moonfire to the respective procs (Nature/Arcane dmg).
That way you could still use Eclipse while moving without a such a DPS loss.
That might make the tooltip even more bloated and the talent even more essential though....
Lissanna Mar 5th 2010 10:30AM
Actually, if you consider all of moonkin's abilities that they have now (and will likely get in the future), it could be "fun" to change Eclipse to wrath procs an Arcane damage buff (where moonfire, starfire, starfall, & possible new arcane spell would all benefit), and then Starfire procs a Nature damage buff (where wrath, IS, hurricane, typhoon, & possible new nature spell. would all benefit).
GC said something about the important part being switching between Nature & Arcane spells, but if we had cooldowns & instants to use while moving that also benefited from Eclipse procs, then the same model for Eclipse (while rotating between schools of magic instead of 2 spells) could end up being a lot more interesting & less frustrating/limiting. Then, we wouldn't have to fight over whether or not the DOTs were worth casting, because they would be buffed during their side of the Eclipse proc. It would still have a high level of skilled involved to execute it well.
Tyler Caraway Mar 5th 2010 11:23AM
That's a change that could work. It would probably encourage DoT clipping to an extent. At least with Insect Swarm since it has roughly the same duration as the Eclipse buff and should have one, maybe two, ticks left on it right before Eclipse falls off. Moonfire might also end up that way, but I'm not entirely sure.
It would certainly allows us to care about our DoTs for a change.