Updates and clarifications on the mastery system
by Anne Stickney 
Mar 9th 2010 at 6:15PM
We posted yesterday about some of the aspects of the mastery system, a new feature in Cataclysm that will allow players to obtain bonuses to whatever talent tree they choose to follow. Today Eyonix answered a few questions to clarify the system and how it will work with regards to specific classes and abilities:
- 1. 28/28/20 spec. Does mastery on gear affect both highest trees or give no benefit at all?
- 2. How are ferals and Dks as tanks working with mastery system in place? Are they to care about it for threat or do they have separate bonuses.
- 3. How are the non-pure classes going to be balanced against those with a full 76 point passive benefit? Balance, enhancement(not so much), shadow, feral, ele, resto, holy and Ret all have this issue.
- 4. Hybrids who use spells not improved by their spec on occasion such as heals or the extra lava burst are feeling that their non-specced spells are going to be extremely weak as compared to now.
Eyonix1) Mastery on gear gives you one bonus. That bonus is the third passive (the unique one) in the tree in which you've spent the most points. In the examples we gave, those are Absorption, Radiance and Runic Power generation.
2) Ferals will have passive bonuses that say Cat: melee damage done, Bear: damage reduction. For death knights we have a different plan in mind that we're not quite ready to discuss. DKs are undergoing some slight changes so they aren't so GCD constrained and are less limited by rune cooldowns.
3) Assume you only get the passive bonuses for the tree in which you've spent the most points, and there is a ceiling per tree (which could be something like 51-55 talent points). If you spend more points than that in a tree you still get the benefits of the talent. If you spend points in another tree, you are benefiting from those talents instead. Unless you try to make say a 40 / 36 / 0 build, you shouldn't be losing passive bonuses.
If you turn level 10 and spend 1 point in Discipline, you are now a Disc priest. You receive the Disc talent tree passive bonuses and mastery rating on gear benefits your Disc passive bonus (Absorption). If you reach level 85 and have 70 points in Disc and 6 in Holy, you are still a Disc priest and the same rules apply. If you change your build to 51 Disc / 20 Holy / 5 Shadow, you are still a Disc priest.
4) They are weak now and the intent is to keep them that way. We aren't trying to nerf them any more than they are today. If we want to make sure Resto shaman can do big Lava Bursts, we'll give them a talent or something to make that happen. We don't want Resto shaman to Lava Burst anywhere on the scale of an Elemental shaman. Again, how they perform today is pretty much the target for where we want to end up.
2) Ferals will have passive bonuses that say Cat: melee damage done, Bear: damage reduction. For death knights we have a different plan in mind that we're not quite ready to discuss. DKs are undergoing some slight changes so they aren't so GCD constrained and are less limited by rune cooldowns.
3) Assume you only get the passive bonuses for the tree in which you've spent the most points, and there is a ceiling per tree (which could be something like 51-55 talent points). If you spend more points than that in a tree you still get the benefits of the talent. If you spend points in another tree, you are benefiting from those talents instead. Unless you try to make say a 40 / 36 / 0 build, you shouldn't be losing passive bonuses.
If you turn level 10 and spend 1 point in Discipline, you are now a Disc priest. You receive the Disc talent tree passive bonuses and mastery rating on gear benefits your Disc passive bonus (Absorption). If you reach level 85 and have 70 points in Disc and 6 in Holy, you are still a Disc priest and the same rules apply. If you change your build to 51 Disc / 20 Holy / 5 Shadow, you are still a Disc priest.
4) They are weak now and the intent is to keep them that way. We aren't trying to nerf them any more than they are today. If we want to make sure Resto shaman can do big Lava Bursts, we'll give them a talent or something to make that happen. We don't want Resto shaman to Lava Burst anywhere on the scale of an Elemental shaman. Again, how they perform today is pretty much the target for where we want to end up.
Looks like they're designing it so players can't receive the benefits of more than one talent tree at a time -- it's whatever tree you've got the most points in, and there's a ceiling per tree. It's also reassuring that they're keeping feral druids and DKs in mind when designing this, although now the question is just what are they doing to DKs? Check out yesterday's post, which includes a more detailed look into just what these talents are going to look like, and stay tuned for more information as we see it!
Filed under: News items, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Tylorin Mar 9th 2010 6:20PM
This mastery system is gonna be good... (:D)
jjtwalton Mar 9th 2010 9:16PM
Runes are the only thing limiting DKs. They don't have to earn anything like rage, or watch their mana, right?
I mean... if they aren't constricted by runes, then by what? Most of the runes turn in to a death-afuckit-dowhatyouwant-rune anyway, right?
I guess there must be issues or they wouldn't have to address them... but thy sure as hell better balance them. :)
Hardfang Mar 9th 2010 6:21PM
Glad they made it a tad clearer.
If it ended up the way I thought it was gonna be, it would have produced specs like 28/20/28 in dps classes.
Lohac Mar 9th 2010 6:32PM
They didn't actually answer the first question.
"1. 28/28/20 spec. Does mastery on gear affect both highest trees or give no benefit at all?"
"1) Mastery on gear gives you one bonus. That bonus is the third passive (the unique one) in the tree in which you've spent the most points. In the examples we gave, those are Absorption, Radiance and Runic Power generation."
The question is asking about two trees that are evenly specced. Let's say I'm 28/28/20. Arms/Fury/Prot. Do I get the 3rd bonus from Arms or Fury? (And yes I know it's not a real warrior spec. It's an example.)
Fluffywumpki of Kilrogg Mar 9th 2010 6:41PM
Based on the answer to 3, I'd guess you don't get the tier 3 passive bonus unless you are 41 point into the tree.
emperorshishire Mar 9th 2010 6:46PM
Quoting Eyonix again here, later in the thread:
"It’s actually very uncommon for players to go even across the board. If you spend your first talent point in assassination, your second in combat and your third in subtlety then yes, that problem might exist. There are other cases where someone might choose to do so at max level as well. We’ll just have to come up with a simple rule, such as your last point spent wins in cases of a talent tree "tie" -- (just an example). As long as everyone knows and understand the rule that's used, you can play around it in the off-chance the situation comes up."
Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=23710210871&sid=1&pageNo=2#27
Thomas Ford Mar 9th 2010 6:52PM
Think the BIG thing everyone is forgetting and automatically assuming is that these talents are going to remain the same.... It's not. Blizz has already said during blizzcon that the trees are getting completley reworked to get rid of some of the fat pretty much. Gone will be the talents that increase you dps overall like "3/6/9%" talents. The trees with the abilities we see today are going to be null and void. Everyone just needs to take a step back, take a deep breath and learn to be patient and relax a bit.
As far as the 28/28/20 build, while hypothetical is completley obnoxious. We currently don't see any viable trees being built around that, if there is I have yet to come across it personally, but I'm certain a 28/28/20 build won't be vialbe in Cata either.
sontrowa Mar 9th 2010 8:02PM
They did answer that. Sort of. Whichever is highest and recieved the initial talent point first. If both Arms and Fury at 28 it's whichever got to 28 first.
vexis58 Mar 9th 2010 9:36PM
It also directly contradicts the death knight example in the original explanation post:
"An Unholy death knight who sub-specs into Frost would still be able to benefit from this bonus, though because they’re investing fewer talent points, they’d benefit to a smaller degree."
I am even more confused after this "clarification" than I was before.
BoomingEchoes Mar 9th 2010 9:47PM
@Thomas Ford
But its not about being viable, its about whether you can do it at all. Right now you can do it but there's no bonuses being talked about for putting points any where, the only real bonus we see for putting points deep into any tree is whether or not its going to give you the maximum potential. You could run a heroic today and see a Pally (for example only) thinking he/she are ok with a lot of points in all 3 trees because of the misguided thought that: 1) they'd be able to heal some and help the group 2) they wont take a bunch of damage so they wont be a liability and 3) they'd have damage output as well while not helping keep people alive.. This train of thought probably becomes stronger with the idea that the trees, the deeper in you go, will be giving you bonus's and it was originally assumed that you'd be getting bonus's for your main tree as well as small bonus' for however many points your shuffling into the other trees.
Ironically the the word hybrid, that they use to denote the idea of being able to do more then one thing with a class, implies its possibility from the moment you roll a class that's considered one.. It's incredibly dumb but Blizzard also isn't stopping neither that train of thought nor the ability to spec that way from happening, even in Cataclysm. And they never will, its too late to stop and retool things THAT much. The only thing they can do is continue to tell us how unreasonable it is to spread your points that thin because you'll never meet your max potential, but that doesnt stop those who want to try.
And the problem with using the word "viable" is that some people don't realize they usually use the word when it comes to raiding. The word doesn't get used, or doesn't have a lot of meaning, outside of that area of the game. A lot of that actually comes from raid leaders looking to min/max their groups for fast progression and the sad fact that that is what Blizzard has based most of their class changes on since MC. Some class is low on dps, then it was found in the raids. A class dies to easy (ahem, Enhancement Shaman) then it was probably found out about through the raiding community.
But the thing that they know, but don't know how to really move towards, is that you don't need to be viable for most of the game. Take five mans 5 mans for instance (no pun intended), if viability were the case then frost mages, demo locks, 2 of the three shaman specs, ret pallies and a host of other specs that have fallen in and out of grace over these 5 years wouldn't have been found in any 5mans, normal or heroic, in the times they weren't viable. But they were there. And you don't have to be viable to solo, you just have to enjoy what your doing and survive.
It's all part of what they have to deal with in remaking these systems and frankly its a mess because they also have to make sure it all works for PvP and Arena's also. So even as obnoxious as YOU find the hypothetical situation of a 28/28/20 spec, it won't be so hypothetical when someone uses one and Blizzard needs to plan for that. Its WORLD of Warcraft and a lot of weird things happen in the world that they need to plan for.
thebitterfig Mar 10th 2010 1:15AM
this is where i think they are making a big mistake with mastery, in that only one tree will be activated... thing is, even if you could gain three tree on 28/28/20, what you'd give up would probably cripple you in other regards.
you can make a workable DK tank in a build similar to that in live, but it would be far from optimal and you would loose tanking cooldowns and a lot of nice abilities for threat and survival. maybe a rogue like that could work, getting hemo, a weapon spec out of combat, and poison buffs from assassination. it might be passable but definately not raidworthy as it looses a lot of potent stuff, the kinds of non-boring dps talents which blizzard has said they aren't getting rid of. stuff like master poisoner, or combat's wondeful burst cooldowns, or tricks of the trade. any 28/28/20 type spec will be missing the deep-tree tools that really make a spec work. those are the talents which make you something other than a slightly-stronger untalented toon by altering playstyle.
furthermore, i think people thinking they could triple-dip on mastery by doing that were just being utterly mistaken. mastery bonuses are on a per-talent-point basis, so you'd get a wider variety of bonuses, but they wouldn't add up to anything higher. even if all the tree's bonuses would be beneficial, in 28/28/20 you'd get half of tree A's benefit and half of tree B's, with standard subspec bonuses from tree C, rather than the full benefit of a tree A spec with C subspec in a 56/0/20 spec. consider that the deep talents in any tree are almost surely where the gameplay-changers are, the procs and other twists that really elevate dps, you'd be at a net loss, and i'd lay money that even WITHOUT blizzard turning off mastery for secondary trees, there wouldn't be any practical PvE raid specs in a 28/28/20 type model, for exactly the same reason there aren't any now. pretty similar things go for pvp, too, where it isn't just the boring and flat passive damage/healing/survival talents which people spec into particular trees to get, but the more interesting cooldowns, procs, and so forth.
so, if 28/28/20 specs would be "bad" even if bliz didn't seriously nerf mastery for non-main-trees, why is it bad that bliz is nerfing non-main-trees? it's bad because it is probably an overraction to players not understanding how mastery works and how talent trees are structured, but it is also bad because it kills quirky specs which aren't designed to be raid or arena viable, but still want to do what they do well.
Eliezer Mar 10th 2010 3:19AM
@Vexis58
They did answer the question. Passive bonuses still apply, but the /Mastery/ Stat will only ever affect ONE tree at a time, even if you tried to do something like 28/28/20. You can't get two Mastery bonuses.
Gothia Mar 10th 2010 4:24AM
People that spec 28/28/20 should get the knucklehead bonus which would of course be negative -31% damage and haste.
Reps Mar 9th 2010 6:40PM
So how does this tie in with their idea of a plate dps being able to tank 5 mans and heroic effectively? If a Fury Warrior is supposed to be able to switch stances and be able to tank one of the new 5 mans (Heroic Deadmines for example, or whatever new dungeons they release) without switching specs or having a complete dedicated tanking set, this seems to be slightly counterproductive.
Chris M Mar 9th 2010 6:47PM
Sorry- I may be behind on my Cataclysm info, but can you link me to a post in which that was implied or noted by a blue?
I seem to recall them saying they'd even out HP scaling across the board, but not let DPS plate tank heroics.
Edge Mar 9th 2010 6:56PM
I've never heard it said that DPS was going to be able to take a Tanks role. That would be IMBA not counterproductive. The best they will do I imagine is for you to change specs and use the same gear, but even then I'd imagine at the very least trinkets, rings, necklaces and gems having to change to be able to do the highest levels of content.
Ves Mar 9th 2010 6:56PM
Two components
1: Defensive Stance will now provide crit immunity by itself, so there's less of a need for Tanking gear.
2: Mobs in Catalcysm Heroics will hit for shit.
Ryan Bell Mar 9th 2010 7:12PM
They never said you wouldn't have to switch specs to tank, just that you wouldn't have to stack defense
Mike Mar 9th 2010 7:05PM
I don't have a link onhand, but I believe the intent was to make it easier for a hybrid class to jump from one role to another in easier content). Specifically, it was mentioned for a DPS Warrior to put on a shield and activate Defensive Stance. I think the hope is that you won't need a full set of gear to tank (or heal), but you would need some (sword and shield for tanks, etc). I would also imagine there would be some talent choices involved, but it would be a matter of a Fury or Arms Warrior sub-speccing into Prot, keeping their damage mostly on par but giving them some better defenses as well.
jorge_av Mar 9th 2010 7:09PM
I recall they said just the regular, early 5 mans that DPS plate would be able to tank without tanking gear. Heroics would still require a tank.