The Care and Feeding of Warriors: I cannot see the future Page 2

As I just stated, the purpose of this proposed (and wholly self-engendered) redesign is not to sneak out from the hybrid tax. Neither is it to try and push warriors ahead of other tanks. Rather, the goal is for each spec to have that thematic feel that Blizzard stated they wanted: with Mastery coming and each tree being redesigned to free up options and allow players to pick talents they like rather than talents purely because (as in the case of Cruelty) they're boring but necessary DPS or tank boost talents (Deflection in arms is another example) now's a good time.
The danger, of course, is that we'd veer dangerously close into 'DK lite' territory. To some degree I think protection warriors already feel too much like protection paladins: they both use shields, hit things with their shields, TC and Shockwave are used with Deep Wounds for a poor man's Consecrate, we're getting a Revenge cleave that's similar to their seals, we both debuff attack speed, we strip off armor and they just ignore it with holy damage, both classes use block, parry and dodge (the only two classes that do as tanks) etc etc. Even if you can make the argument that prot warriors were doing a lot of that stuff first, it's fair to say the difference between a prot warrior and paladin are currently centered around a few special abilities each class has that the other wants.
The easiest way to avoid homogenization of feel is to again go back to the idea of talent trees not as role defined, but as themes that define aspects of the class. Warriors are purely martial: they have no magic, no sneaky tricks or stealth, they don't tap into abhorrent powers of the undead or transformative magics or what have you. Warriors are build around three aspects: weapons, rage, and raw force.
The danger, of course, is that we'd veer dangerously close into 'DK lite' territory. To some degree I think protection warriors already feel too much like protection paladins: they both use shields, hit things with their shields, TC and Shockwave are used with Deep Wounds for a poor man's Consecrate, we're getting a Revenge cleave that's similar to their seals, we both debuff attack speed, we strip off armor and they just ignore it with holy damage, both classes use block, parry and dodge (the only two classes that do as tanks) etc etc. Even if you can make the argument that prot warriors were doing a lot of that stuff first, it's fair to say the difference between a prot warrior and paladin are currently centered around a few special abilities each class has that the other wants.
The easiest way to avoid homogenization of feel is to again go back to the idea of talent trees not as role defined, but as themes that define aspects of the class. Warriors are purely martial: they have no magic, no sneaky tricks or stealth, they don't tap into abhorrent powers of the undead or transformative magics or what have you. Warriors are build around three aspects: weapons, rage, and raw force.
We also need to make some decisions about the difference between Arms and Fury. Traditionally, Arms was the PvP tree and Fury was the PvE tree. We understand some players prefer that model, but we don't like the way it cuts off such a big chunk of the class from players who might not have much interest in the PvP or PvE parts of the game. However, we would like to reinforce a little more the kits of Arms and Fury.
By making this emphasis (and including protection, or whatever you'd want to call it) in the process, you'd finally move towards a modern warrior class design. Frankly, the warrior feels like what it is, the first viable tanking class designed and implemented. Warrior tanking mechanics (and to some extent druids, who are admittedly designed to mimic warriors) are antiquated now. In the modern WoW experience, where DPS scales much better than tanks and the great majority of DPS use either mana or energy, systems that start at full and either don't really run out due to MP5 mechanics or natural regeneration, we have a situation where the DPS can go whole hog from the get go while the warrior needs to build up his resource system. (This is also why DK tanking can often be stressful, as they not only have a complicated resource system to manage, but they're also often GCD or rune locked while tanking. This isn't a DK column, but in any post discussing moving warriors to a more open talent system it's a pitfall we need to avoid.) In PvE, it's not like the infinite resource replenishment of rage even matters, since very few other physical DPS ever have to worry about running out of mana and this have effectively 'blue rage' but with the added benefit of a full bar up front.
One possible way to do this would be to move arms and protection away from rage. It doesn't really fit the 'disciplined, soldierly feel' that's been proposed for arms to have them build a resource that's called 'rage' after all. However, the amount of redesign that would be required here would be so great that it starts to move past the purview of an expansion, and in general rage is so much a part of warriors after five years that I don't want to see it gone. However, changing the way rage works for arms is certainly feasible.
Imagine if, instead of fury's constant cycle of rage in/rage out, arms was based instead around the idea of building and maintaining rage: that the various attacks and abilities of an arms warrior did more damage or gained other benefits related to rage pool. At the same time, each ability would still cost rage, so you couldn't simply sit on a full pool and have your DPS increase. You'd have to acquire and spend rage, but rather than simply following a rotation and burning through rage as fast as possible (dumping if you appear in danger of capping out) you'd want to save rage for big flourishes and finishing moves that would do more damage the higher your rage bar got, but also cost more rage to use when you did, leading you to a tactical use of rage.
Meanwhile, the protection tree would be based around stoking rage like a furnace. A high rage pool would make you inherently more threatening, reduce the amount of damage you took, but still rage would be spent to generate threat and reduce/mitigate incoming damage. Having high rage would increase your outgoing white damage but hoarding would be discouraged by making active tanking require steady rage expenditure. Neither the fury warrior's frenzied spend, spend, spend nor the arms warrior's maneuver and riposte, protection would be about holding rage in until you just can't hold any more and then letting it go in massive, ponderous bursts of pure force, slamming your body into enemies like a rampaging bull and letting your raw mass bowl them over.
In the end, I am the worst seer you're likely to meet. Warriors will be whatever they will be, and I have no more claim on knowing what that is than anyone else. But I firmly believe that the time to redesign rage and the talents is now: warriors aren't a bad class, but they're definitely showing signs of age and older design that need to be reconsidered. The goal is not to make warriors dominant at either of their roles, but rather, to let a warrior perform either of them based not on locking them into choices in a narrow field but rather by giving options useful for either in each toolkit.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
NoTomorrow Mar 12th 2010 3:18PM
"...save rage for big flourishes and finishing moves that would do more damage the higher your rage bar got, but also cost more rage to use when you did, leading you to a tactical use of rage."
This is why I feel that the execute nerf was unneeded. I believe that as arms, execute should be able to take your full rage bar (and do ridiculous amounts of damage with that) WHILE the target is below 20%. By all means, leave the 30 rage cap on the sudden death procs, but making execute feel far less epic by capping it just... doesn't seem right.
djfatsostupid Mar 12th 2010 3:39PM
I'm pretty sure the 30 rage cap was intended to help, not hurt warriors. When you are using a slow weapon and execute uses your entire rage bar when you hit it, you might not be able to execute again because you have to wait for a weapon swing to get your rage back. If you only use up part of your rage bar then you can execute again on the next GCD. The rage you pay up front to activate execute does *way* more damage per rage than the rage you add on afterwards, so you'd rather pay for another execute then dump more rage into the one you are doing. Of course they could redesign it so this wasn't the case.
Aedilhild Mar 12th 2010 3:40PM
Conversely, low rage could be subject to discounted abilities (perhaps dealing less damage) so a player could watch his bar before it emptied, rather than know that a single major strike will leave him staring at dimmed buttons, rage-starved for the next couple of seconds. It'd make for more interesting play.
velutina Mar 12th 2010 4:40PM
For my warrior tank the thing I watch is the threat meter. I may be highest on threat, but I certainly don't feel threatening. Certainly I look less threatening than any other class in the game. I'm not shooting flames out of my hands, or throwing my laser shield, or what-not.
If there were a warrior talent that made me grow to a monstrous size (like Tirion in ICC), have flames covering my armor and cascading onto the floor, that would be really cool. It could add armor, damage, a thorns-like aura, Consecrate effect, whatever. But my warrior needs to look threatening for the boss to be attacking me. Even if it did nothing, it would make my warrior much more fun to play.
Irontoof Mar 12th 2010 6:28PM
The concept with putting rage/damage relations on all skills is a bit too complex. Mages have, always had, and always will have three dps button they press in a cycle. I've seen hunter macros with a 27-second rotation in one button. rogues press mutilate, envenom, and refresh HFB. why should warriors have to manage a shaky rage/damage system? that would be even more random than rage is now.
However, i'd like to have execute (apart from Sudden Death procs) restored to it's original form. After shield slam combos got nerfed, it would be nice if we could see 5 digit numbers every day again. And, let's face it, finishing every fight with a massive overkill crit is awesome. It would really feel like an execution again. oh, and a very bloody animated decapitation whenever you land a killing blow with execute, pretty please ^^,
NecDW4 Mar 12th 2010 10:46PM
GOD i want to see the old execute mechanics back in action.
Evelinda Mar 15th 2010 2:52AM
i really have to agree about execute... my 80 warrior mostly runs fury, and i wont even bother with execute if i can bloodthirst or whirlwind, because those abilities do as much or more damage... whereas when i play on my hunter and kill shot pops up, its critting for 15-17k, which is CRAZY, especially considering i'm not that geared... kill shot is just a blatant rip off of execute, why the heck is it so much more powerful? imo execute either needs a straight damage buff, or the ability to dump a full rage bar into it, so it actually seems like youre executing someone again.
cidninja Mar 12th 2010 3:23PM
personally i'm fine with the way the trees are setup. i really like your idea about each spec dealing with rage in a different way, though. i think it'd make things a lot more interesting.
Ringo Flinthammer Mar 12th 2010 3:25PM
The Bladestorm change is making this hunter strongly consider dropping my Survival PvP spec in favor of just using my MM PvE spec in PvP. I do so love pretty ballerinas.
thebitterfig Mar 12th 2010 3:31PM
to that end, don't forget that shadow priests can disarm at range, and save a teammate from whirling death.
Yeechang Lee Mar 12th 2010 3:29PM
Hunters will be using energy in Cataclysm, so there is a precedent for completely changing the raw material that a spec/class uses to perform actions. Druids, of course, offer the precedent of each spec of a class using an energy source different from the other specs. Could energy work for arms warriors, too? A plate-wearing rogue, of sorts?
Ramco Mar 12th 2010 3:35PM
Focus isn't energy. There's a fine difference, but the details are very vague at this point.
And I don't think many self-respecting warriors would like to be a rogue, not even one in plate. Rogues are backstabbing, stealthy cowards, warriors are strong, honorable protectors. We don't like to be associated with those sneaky rats.
NeoPhobos Mar 12th 2010 3:42PM
"warriors are strong, honorable protectors" ... who charge head-first into battle, waving about a huge 2H mace, screaming at the top of his lungs "Have no fear puny comrades, I have arrived to tank this dragon. BLOOD AND THUNDER ... FOR GNOMEREGAN!!!"
Strong? yes.
Honorable? possibly.
Insightful? Roll a
NeoPhobos Mar 12th 2010 3:43PM
*Edit*
"Roll a.." (insert almost any other class here).
Tim Mar 12th 2010 3:44PM
@Ramco
We are still back bashing/ smashing. That being said, they could make energy and rage work almost the same. Give warriors just need to be able to regen rage on the move better since Blizz fav fight machanic is FLOOR IS BAD
jason Mar 12th 2010 3:31PM
I like the "Rage" mechanic you came up with. It probably won't happen anytime soon. I think the least they could do is give us Warriors a small increase in our rage cap.
Ramco Mar 12th 2010 3:33PM
On the subject of Arms Tanking, I'd love to see both arms and protection be able to tank, but in different ways:
Protection would be the iron-clad meatshield, who focuses mainly on health, block, armor and parry, AKA being able to handle more damage, while
Arms would be the agile, precise weapon master, who focuses on dodge, parry, and damage reducing (de)buffs, AKA preventing and reducing damage taken, both for himself and the OT or MT.
This would make both the trees different, and made us more hybrid-ish. Of course, some people would like to see DPS/DPS/Tanking, but hey, you can't please everybody...
By the way, very nice article Mr. Rossi.
Murdock Mar 12th 2010 3:44PM
I like this idea, it offers flexibility. Currently we run 2 warriors tanks in my 10-man (I'm the MT) I feel like the OT just doesn't have that much to do. It is so hard sometimes to OT as a warrior because you can't build that rage, you feel like you aren't contributing.
Now if one of those warriors could go Arms with a shield and dodge some of those incoming attach, disarm/distract the boss, parry away big hits, etc that would be fun. Imagine an intercept like ability that parry's the next 5 attacks or something. The OT runs in from the side and deftly interrupts the bosses furious attacks lessening damage to the MT, now that would be fun.
Rossi,
Great article and some really great ideas.
Mortiseraphim Mar 12th 2010 3:36PM
And this is why I love Rossi.
He pretty much sums up everything I love about the warrior with how he talks about them and genuinely has good, albeit radical, ideas for making the warrior more dynamic. I love these ideas and i would crit my pants to see some changes of this kind of caliber make it into Cata.
I totally agree that the warrior mechanics are a bit antiquated at this point and the time for drastic changes is now. The dated game that we play, as much as we love it, will cease to be and now is as good a time as ever to shake things up and widen that divide between specs.
One thing that i thought of when reading this is what if arms was more like the warlord class from lineage II? They have an inherent chance to hit multiple targets with a polearm simply by attacking. As much as I hate the idea of poaching ideas from a terrible NCsoft game, the idea is intriquing. The precision and almost dance-like swaths an arms warrior could create with his/her weapon swings is just something that plays out in my head.
Fury is doing pretty good, but I think it could be a little more focused on the 'screaming barbarian' bit. Don't get me wrong, its nice to do 19k dps on trash packs in ICC, but only having three attacks to use (and one of those attacks is mashing the everliving crap out of heroic strike/cleve), when the overall toolkit of a warrior is so vast, is a little disappointing. Granted the t10 4p set bonus makes your rotation a little more dynamic and fun, I personally would like to see that expanded upon. I was really sad when the shouts got overridden by other buffs so that was one less thing I could do.
Bah. I've ranted enough. Look what you make me do Rossi!
Rule34 Mar 12th 2010 3:40PM
I like these ideas a lot, but want to suggest two more. Make arms as a tank have to swap targets more often than the other specs, with the idea of more controlled strikes.
Fury could be focused around some kind of.... charging/stunning mechanic for tanking, for instance, have them have skills with stuns and slows that are on a decent cooldown, but are refreshed each time you intercept, which is refreshed by the stuns, and so the goal of a fury tank would be to keep the enemies apart and nearly incapable of fighting at all, while generating very high aggro and having several movement based abilities to escape, so that they can handle bosses. (although I already see other melee dps HATING them)
Prot on the other hand I like the idea of, but maybe make them buff up for one big strike, instead of simply holding it all in then hitting. Say give them 3 minor rage-using buffs that last one hit, then BOOM shield slam/shockwave/revenge from hell.
Anyways, I expect blizz is going with none of these, but hell, might as well post em:D