The Care and Feeding of Warriors: I cannot see the future Page 2

As I just stated, the purpose of this proposed (and wholly self-engendered) redesign is not to sneak out from the hybrid tax. Neither is it to try and push warriors ahead of other tanks. Rather, the goal is for each spec to have that thematic feel that Blizzard stated they wanted: with Mastery coming and each tree being redesigned to free up options and allow players to pick talents they like rather than talents purely because (as in the case of Cruelty) they're boring but necessary DPS or tank boost talents (Deflection in arms is another example) now's a good time.
The danger, of course, is that we'd veer dangerously close into 'DK lite' territory. To some degree I think protection warriors already feel too much like protection paladins: they both use shields, hit things with their shields, TC and Shockwave are used with Deep Wounds for a poor man's Consecrate, we're getting a Revenge cleave that's similar to their seals, we both debuff attack speed, we strip off armor and they just ignore it with holy damage, both classes use block, parry and dodge (the only two classes that do as tanks) etc etc. Even if you can make the argument that prot warriors were doing a lot of that stuff first, it's fair to say the difference between a prot warrior and paladin are currently centered around a few special abilities each class has that the other wants.
The easiest way to avoid homogenization of feel is to again go back to the idea of talent trees not as role defined, but as themes that define aspects of the class. Warriors are purely martial: they have no magic, no sneaky tricks or stealth, they don't tap into abhorrent powers of the undead or transformative magics or what have you. Warriors are build around three aspects: weapons, rage, and raw force.
The danger, of course, is that we'd veer dangerously close into 'DK lite' territory. To some degree I think protection warriors already feel too much like protection paladins: they both use shields, hit things with their shields, TC and Shockwave are used with Deep Wounds for a poor man's Consecrate, we're getting a Revenge cleave that's similar to their seals, we both debuff attack speed, we strip off armor and they just ignore it with holy damage, both classes use block, parry and dodge (the only two classes that do as tanks) etc etc. Even if you can make the argument that prot warriors were doing a lot of that stuff first, it's fair to say the difference between a prot warrior and paladin are currently centered around a few special abilities each class has that the other wants.
The easiest way to avoid homogenization of feel is to again go back to the idea of talent trees not as role defined, but as themes that define aspects of the class. Warriors are purely martial: they have no magic, no sneaky tricks or stealth, they don't tap into abhorrent powers of the undead or transformative magics or what have you. Warriors are build around three aspects: weapons, rage, and raw force.
Bornakk - Class Q&A Series: WarriorWe also need to make some decisions about the difference between Arms and Fury. Traditionally, Arms was the PvP tree and Fury was the PvE tree. We understand some players prefer that model, but we don't like the way it cuts off such a big chunk of the class from players who might not have much interest in the PvP or PvE parts of the game. However, we would like to reinforce a little more the kits of Arms and Fury.
By making this emphasis (and including protection, or whatever you'd want to call it) in the process, you'd finally move towards a modern warrior class design. Frankly, the warrior feels like what it is, the first viable tanking class designed and implemented. Warrior tanking mechanics (and to some extent druids, who are admittedly designed to mimic warriors) are antiquated now. In the modern WoW experience, where DPS scales much better than tanks and the great majority of DPS use either mana or energy, systems that start at full and either don't really run out due to MP5 mechanics or natural regeneration, we have a situation where the DPS can go whole hog from the get go while the warrior needs to build up his resource system. (This is also why DK tanking can often be stressful, as they not only have a complicated resource system to manage, but they're also often GCD or rune locked while tanking. This isn't a DK column, but in any post discussing moving warriors to a more open talent system it's a pitfall we need to avoid.) In PvE, it's not like the infinite resource replenishment of rage even matters, since very few other physical DPS ever have to worry about running out of mana and this have effectively 'blue rage' but with the added benefit of a full bar up front.
One possible way to do this would be to move arms and protection away from rage. It doesn't really fit the 'disciplined, soldierly feel' that's been proposed for arms to have them build a resource that's called 'rage' after all. However, the amount of redesign that would be required here would be so great that it starts to move past the purview of an expansion, and in general rage is so much a part of warriors after five years that I don't want to see it gone. However, changing the way rage works for arms is certainly feasible.
Imagine if, instead of fury's constant cycle of rage in/rage out, arms was based instead around the idea of building and maintaining rage: that the various attacks and abilities of an arms warrior did more damage or gained other benefits related to rage pool. At the same time, each ability would still cost rage, so you couldn't simply sit on a full pool and have your DPS increase. You'd have to acquire and spend rage, but rather than simply following a rotation and burning through rage as fast as possible (dumping if you appear in danger of capping out) you'd want to save rage for big flourishes and finishing moves that would do more damage the higher your rage bar got, but also cost more rage to use when you did, leading you to a tactical use of rage.
Meanwhile, the protection tree would be based around stoking rage like a furnace. A high rage pool would make you inherently more threatening, reduce the amount of damage you took, but still rage would be spent to generate threat and reduce/mitigate incoming damage. Having high rage would increase your outgoing white damage but hoarding would be discouraged by making active tanking require steady rage expenditure. Neither the fury warrior's frenzied spend, spend, spend nor the arms warrior's maneuver and riposte, protection would be about holding rage in until you just can't hold any more and then letting it go in massive, ponderous bursts of pure force, slamming your body into enemies like a rampaging bull and letting your raw mass bowl them over.
In the end, I am the worst seer you're likely to meet. Warriors will be whatever they will be, and I have no more claim on knowing what that is than anyone else. But I firmly believe that the time to redesign rage and the talents is now: warriors aren't a bad class, but they're definitely showing signs of age and older design that need to be reconsidered. The goal is not to make warriors dominant at either of their roles, but rather, to let a warrior perform either of them based not on locking them into choices in a narrow field but rather by giving options useful for either in each toolkit.
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Biskit333 Mar 12th 2010 7:20PM
I was a little confused when I first read that Blizzard comment about arms warriors being disciplined weapon masters. It sounds like they are describing a knight or samurai, but the animations just don't fit for me. Part of the problem in my opinion is that the melee attack animations just aren't that compelling. When is the last time you even noticed your melee animations? If you don't have big glows and splash effects to accompany them, most of the melee attacks use the same animation for every race. It doesn't make much sense to me, since the warrior attacks are obviously meant to do very different things, why don't they look different? I think more varied and interesting animations would go along way towards making the trees feel varied and unique.
vocenoctum Mar 12th 2010 7:32PM
I want three viable tank specs, and I'd like protection to have a viable dps spec. I love shield smashing stuff, and I'd like to be able to do it when I'm not the guy in the middle.
Arms tanking with a two hander and being proc-based/ gcd limited would be nice, and if DK's can have a two weapon tank build, so can fury! :)
Sleutel Mar 12th 2010 8:10PM
"Tanking an instance isn't the only way to protect someone: you can protect by annihilating the enemy, as an example."
Not and maintain the proper class balance, you can't. If you can bring a tank who can also pump the shit out of DPS, why would you bring anyone else? It's the same problem we had with DKs in early Wrath; I remember raiding with geared DK tanks in Naxx, and they were blowing me out of the water.
"It doesn't really fit the 'disciplined, soldierly feel' that's been proposed for arms to have them build a resource that's called 'rage' after all."
Not to mention, I don't get Rage for things like misses. I don't know about you, but missing a target would make ME pretty pissed off.
Matthew Rossi Mar 13th 2010 1:10AM
"Not and maintain the proper class balance, you can't."
You're not following my intent. My intent is not that prot warrior TANKS should be doing this, but that there should be a viable sword and board DPS style (Think 300) where you are not a tank, but a DPS juggernaut using raw force and sword and board moves to do damage, not hold aggro. You're protection, but DPS. Like how you can have a frost DK who is not a tank.
Sleutel Mar 13th 2010 10:28AM
@Matthew Rossi:
Ah, I see--you were talking about the concept of Prot as a DPS tree, not Arms or Fury as a tanking tree.
I still think you're going to run into problems with itemization and/or balance. What kind of gear would a Prot DPS use? Most of it could be shared in common with Arms or Fury, but then we come to... the shield. First, you'd have to probably make Shield Slam damage scaling work totally differently from Prot tanks, if they're going to be wearing DPS armor (no Block Value--though that's going away--or Block Rating--which probably woudln't matter to a PvE Prot DPS, but maybe to a PvP one). Two possibilities here:
1.) Prot DPS use the same shields as Prot tanks and Paladin Prot tanks.
*Pro:
-Utilizes existing drops.
-Probably not inherently overpowered in PvP; the additional protection would be offset by the lower damage.
*Con:
-DPS are competing with tanks for gear. (We see how well this works out with Feral tanks.)
-Either the character is stuck with an item with useless tanking stats, or they have to create a talent to convert tanking stats to DPS stats.
--Useless stats: Considerably lower DPS.
--Stat conversion: Gives the player extra incentives to wear other tank gear instead of DPS gear (Feral tank problem again); overpowered in PvP (high damage + survivability = yes please) unless the conversion is a swap.
2.) Prot DPS (and perhaps Prot Paladin DPS, if they also become DPS viable, which presumably they'd have to or we'd never hear the end of it) have new DPS shields made.
*Pro:
-Stats are customized for the spec.
-Can be balanced for Prot DPS PvE and PvP: no useless stats, no need for stat conversions.
*Con:
-Introduces yet another piece of gear that can only be used by one spec of one class (or one each of two respective classes, if Pallies get it, too).
--Either the drop rate will be frustratingly low; or
--It's Holy Pally gear all over again. Shield after shield will get DE'd while the tanks and healers gnash their teeth because they haven't seen an upgrade since Molten Core II: Electric Boogaloo.
-What happens when a Fury Warrior equips a 2H + a DPS shield in PvP?
Really, I don't think there's any way to implement this without completely rebuilding the tree from the ground up. And I don't want that to happen--I LIKE my class. I don't think we need every tree to be viable for every role; honestly, it seems more like a gimmick than anything else for DKs. A Hunter isn't a Priest, so why should a Prot Warrior be an Arms Warrior be a Fury Warrior?
Saidear Mar 13th 2010 1:46AM
I believe rage from damage done is being made static. It's not something stated by Blizzard, but from reading between the lines. The current rage model is not a good one for balancing warriors as you start off weak, then scale to being extremely good towards the end. One way to level this off is to make rage static. 1 handed weapons net you X rage, 2 handed - Y rage, with Arms boosting the rage-per-hit via talents. Fury doesn't need those talents, as they can dual-wield 2handers.
But how will we scale our damage? Haste. The "do stuff more often" stat, will increase our rage regen by decreasing our swing timer.
As for theme.. I LOVE my fury warrior. It's fun to charge into combat and hit like a freight train, smashing into things with my maces. I don't enjoy Arms near as much. Fury does have the 'barbarian in woad' theme going for it very much, tho the protection/arms tree feel very lackluster in their approach.
Sokzernkal Mar 13th 2010 4:02AM
"oh, boo hoo, we must protect the poor vulnerable little rogues and mages, let's set up a bloody nature preserve for the precious little darlings so they won't be threatened) etc etc."
lol-o-copters!....after playing the PTR and deftly spinning like a fool...with no weapon equipped doing a grand ZILTCH to mr roguey rogue and mr Fire magey mage. This made me feel alot better
Thank you Mr Rossi
Voen Mar 13th 2010 7:25AM
"Frankly, the Bladestorm nerf is a minor one, albeit an extremely annoying minor one. Granted, it means that opposing rogues, warriors and sometimes hunters (ah, hunters, the Y's of WoW) will be able to turn the major source of "And now YOU DIE" available to arms warriors in PvP into "Whee, I'm a pretty ballerina watch me spin"."
I totally agree with you. This change made me sad. I don't pvp but I love my warrior and Bladestorm. This change just rips off the feeling of uniqueness from our iconic ability. This doesn't effect me in pve but just the thought of it... How someone could just grap a weapon from the hands of my spinning ballerina of death and make her helplessly spin around unable to stop... /cry
I just hate the thought that rogues now lol to us but at least we can still make those mages wet their dresses when we rip them apart. Yeah I'll never forget what Mr. Rossi once wrote: "Seriously, though, Bladestorm? I love you. Warlocks and Mages? I love to kill you. It's so funny when you guys try and fear or freeze me and I turn into a spinning ballerina of death performing the Nutcracker atop your chopped up bodies."
It's pure love when you are farming first time in Wintergrasp or doing world event achievements and some caster chooses to target you. Like I said I don't really pvp but at least they go down first. :) So maybe there's still some magic left if I just ignore those laughing rogues.
Gx1080 Mar 13th 2010 10:22AM
For the love of god, just say it already:
HYBRID TAX IS RETARDED. In a game where specialization is the only path for viability, having people less good at their specializations is bad.
Besides, let's check Warcraft Census:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php
Pure DPS classes will be ALWAYS the least played ones simply because EVERYBODY can DPS. Deal with it, but stop screwing eveybody else.
About Bladestorm, if getting Disarmed stops the effect it won't be that bad. If it doesn't, well, hope that you are fast in pushing that /cancelaura macro, if you don't you will die.
Also, god forbids that something else besides Rogue-Mage-Priest wins arenas.
Sleutel Mar 13th 2010 10:32AM
Agreed. People pick their classes because they like their mechanics and playstyles. As long as buffs and abilities aren't completely homogenized, there will ALWAYS be diversity in your DPS, or you'd see server-first 25-man teams comprised of nothing but, say, Arcane Mages, tanks, and healers.
Let people play what they want to play, and stop penalizing them for it.
Dicon Mar 15th 2010 3:53AM
You could have:
Arms tanking, rage builds over time and gain rage with each hit taken (builds up even standing still and very fast when hit) but you need to keep rage in a sweet spot (more so controlling your rage) high rage (75-100) would lead to a lot of misses (your out of control) thus less treat low rage (0-25) would be weak attacks
Fury tanking, you want to keep it constantly high some moves gain rage others dump it. fury tanks would want to go in like psychos if the rage is low there weak, they would have big dump moves so you would have to lace in rage building with rage dumping (always trying to keep rage above 60)
Prot tanking.....As is (can’t really think of another way to use rage)
Siaperas Mar 15th 2010 8:05PM
An idea that I think would be kind of cool is an arms tank sub tree that allows arms to specialize in using dual-weilding 1-handed weapons and maybe tanking while dual-weidling one-handed weapons. Work in a block mechanic with a deep arms talent that allows the warrior to functionally block if he's dual weilding. It would give the arms warrior options for how he decides to be soldierly. Granted, some people may see parallels to a rogue evasion tank, but I think it would be cool to have a tanking tree that that combines the ideas of a rogue evasion tanking and a dual weilding frost tanking tree to come up with a completely offensive martial tank. That may be a total pipe dream, but I think it would be fun to have.